True Revenge

[Nictarion]

I would figure that as Master of Ships, Stannis had to build an entire new royal fleet to take on the fleet protecting Dragonstone, although rather handidly did get smashed to pieces by a storm when Daenerys was born.

True. Seems like the likeliest reason.

[Mladen]

People, I'm sorry if I am just repeating what someone said, but killing Rhaenys and Aegon was (even if in different levels of need) NECESSARY.

Rhaenys could have been kept as "Queen" and be married off to Robert when she could, but Aegon HAD to die, because his every breath would fuel a Targaryen rebellion to put the real King on the throne, just as it is happening right now in ADWD.

It is a horrible crime, yes, but it is NECESSARY. Or else the rebels would have someone to rebel for.

It wasn't necessary. Not even by far. In universe where you can neutralize the danger they oppose by marrying Rhaenys with Renly (I doubt Robert would wait for 10 years or more for her to grow up), and put Aegon either under custody, or make of him Maester or brother of NW. We even have Aemon as an example. Simply, it wasn't necessary.

[Arakan]

People, I'm sorry if I am just repeating what someone said, but killing Rhaenys and Aegon was (even if in different levels of need) NECESSARY.

Rhaenys could have been kept as "Queen" and be married off to Robert when she could, but Aegon HAD to die, because his every breath would fuel a Targaryen rebellion to put the real King on the throne, just as it is happening right now in ADWD.

It is a horrible crime, yes, but it is NECESSARY. Or else the rebels would have someone to rebel for.

Aegon could have been exiled. It was not "necessary" to murder him. The whole story of RR is rather confusing with regards to its objectives. After all it was not really a regime change in the classic sense as the legitimation to put Robert on the Throne (instead of say Jon or Ned) was BECAUSE of him having the closest "blood connections" to the Targaryens. If a true dynasty change was the target, it shouldnt have mattererd at all (even as a mere pretence).

Well RR was a mess-up as we can clearly see during the Wot5K and earlier during the Greyjoy Rebellion. After all the Targaryens were the raison d'etre of the 7K. The best solution would have been to crown Aegon as a "symbolic" King.

ETA: as Mladen mentioned, the NW would have been a convenient solution as well.

[The Wolves]

People, I'm sorry if I am just repeating what someone said, but killing Rhaenys and Aegon was (even if in different levels of need) NECESSARY.

Rhaenys could have been kept as "Queen" and be married off to Robert when she could, but Aegon HAD to die, because his every breath would fuel a Targaryen rebellion to put the real King on the throne, just as it is happening right now in ADWD.

It is a horrible crime, yes, but it is NECESSARY. Or else the rebels would have someone to rebel for.

It wasn't necessary at all.

Robert did not want to be King neither did Arryn or Ned so why not crown Aegon and take reigns of the kingdom until than?

[Boarsbane]

It wasn't necessary at all.

Robert did not want to be King neither did Arryn or Ned so why not crown Aegon and take reigns of the kingdom until than?

The possibility he might be just a little pissed of about them killing his grandfather and father might of occurred to them.

[Sullen]

If someone in the series deserves revenge, it's the smallfolk.

Let the warring nobility caste pay for their crimes towards those they were supposed to protect, but endangered with their petty squabbles and their greedy ways.

Starks, Lannisters, Baratheons, Arryns, Tullys, Tyrells, Greyjoys, Martells, and all their lackeys. Heads will roll, the people will have its due.

:commie:

[Arakan]

If someone in the series deserves revenge, it's the smallfolk.

Let the warring nobility caste pay for their crimes towards those they were supposed to protect, but endangered with their petty squabbles and their greedy ways.

Starks, Lannisters, Baratheons, Arryns, Tullys, Tyrells, Greyjoys, Martells, and all their lackeys. Heads will roll, the people will have its due.

:commie:

People will laugh but the original BWB in ASOS and the Sparrows movement in AFFC already had a feeling as if they could have had become the nucleus for a common people's uprising to overcome the old elites.

Unfortunately the BWB degraded totally and the Sparrows movement seems to head towards theocracy.

A "breakers of chain" event in Westeros would have been great :)

[Sullen]

People will laugh but the original BWB in ASOS and the Sparrows movement in AFFC already had a feeling as if they could have had become the nucleus for a common people's uprising to overcome the old elites.

Unfortunately the BWB degraded totally and the Sparrows movement seems to head towards theocracy.

A "breakers of chain" event in Westeros would have been great :)

Both the BwB and the Sparrows are admirable movements in the context of the series, I agree.

And despite their similar populist ideology, I fear that they might come to a disagreement due to their different beliefs in a superior Being. Now, neither the Sparrows nor the Brotherhood have proven themselves intolerant of other religions, but the Old Gods-worshipping Northmen burning septs in the Riverlands and Stannis burning the Dragonstone sept in the name of R'hllor is sure to heighten the tension.

There is yet hope for both organisations if you ask me, and they are both considerably morally superiour to any other faction.

[Wmarshal]

Both the BwB and the Sparrows are admirable movements in the context of the series, I agree.

And despite their similar populist ideology, I fear that they might come to a disagreement due to their different beliefs in a superior Being. Now, neither the Sparrows nor the Brotherhood have proven themselves intolerant of other religions, but the Old Gods-worshipping Northmen burning septs in the Riverlands and Stannis burning the Dragonstone sept in the name of R'hllor is sure to heighten the tension.

There is yet hope for both organisations if you ask me, and they are both considerably morally superiour to any other faction.

Is it weird people always hate on the Faith and its leaders when it seems they are the most tolerate of the fractions?

[Arakan]

Is it weird people always hate on the Faith and its leaders when it seems they are the most tolerate of the fractions?

I wouldnt say that they have been the most tolerant...

(1) they had no real power base in the North, where the old gods are worshipped

(2) in the South the Faith almost completely pushed the old gods aside (by force of Invasion and cultural expansionism)

(3) so far they had no real competition in their stronghold, the South, i.e. their tolerance had not been tested yet

(4) the new High Septon seems rather like a fanatic zealot

I would agree that the Faith seems to be less bloodthirsty than others but that doesnt necessarily mean more tolerant

[Sullen]

Is it weird people always hate on the Faith and its leaders when it seems they are the most tolerate of the fractions?

People's own experiences having given them a negative view of organised religion, I guess.

[Ingelheim]

Is it weird people always hate on the Faith and its leaders when it seems they are the most tolerate of the fractions?

Since when the North is less tolerant? They even let the Manderlys have their own religion.

The High Sparrow doesn't seem like a tolerant guy.

[Sullen]

Since when the North is less tolerant? They even let the Manderlys have their own religion.

During the War of the Five Kings, the Northmen (Karstark's men, IIRC) are said to have burned down septs.

The High Sparrow doesn't seem like a tolerant guy.

He has yet to do anything that seems especially intolerant.

[Wmarshal]

1) Actually they do, WH.

2) The Faith didn't force religion, case and point the blackwoods. The andals take over is what I believe pushed many to the Faith like how many joined Christendom for better standing.

3) Blackwoods

4) But has a northmen leading his army.

[Arakan]

I like The Faith with its 7 Gods or 7 aspects God. The scene of Cat praying in the Sept, the night before the (supposed) Battle of SE, is really beautiful and IMO one of GRRM's best.

What we know so far I like the teachings and the belief system of the Faith. But that says basically nothing whether or not the Faith is tolerant towards other religions.

The text gives us rather the impression that the Faith is relatively missionary, i.e. not so tolerant. After all the old Gods are almost completely ousted south of the Neck.

[Wmarshal]

I see where you are coming from.

[Arakan]

2) The Faith didn't force religion, case and point the blackwoods. The andals take over is what I believe pushed many to the Faith like how many cjoined Christendom for better for better standing.

Thr spread of Christianity in medieval Europe was actively driven by proselytism and it was (very) intolerant towards other religions. Charlemagne stopped killing Saxons when they (lead by Widukind) converted to Christianity. Not to mentioned the crusades against the Baltic Prussians in North-Eastern Europe (Teutonic Order).

So you chose an example which rather contradicts your point.

[Ingelheim]

During the War of the Five Kings, the Northmen (Karstark's men, IIRC) are said to have burned down septs.

I'll give you this one, but the Karstark are the same that went nuts during the war. It's not fair at all. It's like saying all Westermen rape and kill because Gregor Clegane and his men did that.

He has yet to do anything that seems especially intolerant.

Isn't the Faith Militant an intolerant act itself? Or the fact that the guy seems to think the whip is a good religious tool?

[Wmarshal]

I was thinking of the kings of Denmark and Norway. But you are right. Arakan.

[LordStoneheart]

I just have a few points to give about the Faith, and religion in general.

1. They're obviously missionary with a little intolerance (chasing out Old Gods, condemning Stannis) but that's hardly unique

2. GRRM's interviews indicate he wants his religions to reflect real world, and based on his statements regarding his own religious perspective and his other stories about religion, we're meant to see the Faith as good and bad.

3. We see them at their best (Catelyn's beautiful sept chapters, Ned/Sansa in the Godswood) and we see them at possibly their worst (The Faith torturing a Kettleblack/shades of intolerance of Old Gods and Rhllor & Bran's vision of the First Men sacrificing a human.)

And though they started from necessity of protecting themselves, I believe the Sparrows and Warrior's Sons are just not a good idea. Armed men promoting religion rarely are.

Also, none of the Gods exist. :D