Jon Snow traveling beyond the Wall again?

[Berric_Dondiedagain]

Doesn't Jon also know that the Old Bear was killed by members of the NW-

I would think that this would be in the back of his mind- regardless of Mel's warning-

Joar didn't expect to get stabbed- Jon would be foolish to think he was immune to the same fratricide

[sj4iy]

Doesn't Jon also know that the Old Bear was killed by members of the NW-

I would think that this would be in the back of his mind- regardless of Mel's warning-

Joar didn't expect to get stabbed- Jon would be foolish to think he was immune to the same fratricide

It wasn't that he didn't think it could happen to him. He was very aware that some people disliked his decisions.

It's more that he doesn't put much stock in prophecies and he doesn't trust Melisandre. He doesn't want to be beholden to something as flimsy as a prophecy, it would make him paranoid and keep him from making the decisions he needed to make.

[Mrmanakan]

It wasn't that he didn't think it could happen to him. He was very aware that some people disliked his decisions.

It's more that he doesn't put much stock in prophecies and he doesn't trust Melisandre. He doesn't want to be beholden to something as flimsy as a prophecy, it would make him paranoid and keep him from making the decisions he needed to make.

I would have to disagree. In one of Jon's chapters in DWD he is having a chat with Bowen and Yarwyk and septic cellador where he is about to let the wildlings through and at the end after telling Bowen to collect the tool he thinks thing

Yes, Lord Snow, said Bowen Marsh.

And Jon thought, Ice, she said, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel. His sword hand flexed. The wind was rising.

Excerpt From: George R. R. Martin. A Dance With Dragons. Bantam, 2008

That shows he though his assassination was possible. And possibly put some faith in that prophesy. He definitely looked at it as a possibility.

I like the ring mail catch maybe it's possible he had some sort of armor on. and it was basically winter and probably had lots of layers on. As I've said before If he is dead (resurrected or normal)it's all over at the wall

[sj4iy]

I would have to disagree. In one of Jon's chapters in DWD he is having a chat with Bowen and Yarwyk and septic cellador where he is about to let the wildlings through and at the end after telling Bowen to collect the tool he thinks thing

Yes, Lord Snow, said Bowen Marsh.

And Jon thought, Ice, she said, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel. His sword hand flexed. The wind was rising.

Excerpt From: George R. R. Martin. A Dance With Dragons. Bantam, 2008

That shows he though his assassination was possible. And possibly put some faith in that prophesy. He definitely looked at it as a possibility.

I like the ring mail catch maybe it's possible he had some sort of armor on. and it was basically winter and probably had lots of layers on. As I've said before If he is dead (resurrected or normal)it's all over at the wall

Jon isn't making ring mail. He's sleeping in Noye's old rooms next to the armory. The context was clearly that the mail was left there since Noye died. It was only half done, so how would he wear it?

And Jon doesn't trust Melisandre. She even admits it. He knows that she has some powers, but he also knows that she makes mistakes. What good does it do him if she names people off? She could be wrong. Or she could be right. But how would he know? They haven't committed a crime at that point, there's no way to prove a conspiracy. And there's no faster way to turn his men against him than to punish men who haven't done anything.

Jon has the right of it. He can't let those types of prophecies determine what he is going to do. He knew there was danger, like you mentioned above. But there was nothing he could really do about it without starting a witch hunt.

[Lord of Nutella]

i dont think Jon is going north of the wall again. i guess Bran will be our eyes and ears. im thrilled wether the clash with the others will be in part 6 or part 7.

[sj4iy]

i dont think Jon is going north of the wall again. i guess Bran will be our eyes and ears. im thrilled wether the clash with the others will be in part 6 or part 7.

This. I think Jon will go South, not North. I don't see the point in Jon going North at all.

[Lord of Nutella]

i mean, its not like he has some superweapon to kill the Ohters or the Zombies, so it makes no sense for him to go north. he cant accomplish anything there, cause rescuing the wildlings at the coast will be impossible to him. the NW doesnt want it to happen.

[bemused]

sj4iy...

Let's be realistic. When Sam sees the shirt, it's been many weeks ( months, even ) since Jon moved into Noye's quarters. Did he leave Donal's other things lying about all that time? No. Do we read of any other clutter left by Donal still around? No. We read of spears neatly in racks , but not other half finished items here and there - only the mail shirt. GRRM is not describing a scene that is as Donal left it. Jon has already made the place his own.

Sam is not thinking about Donal or speaking about Donal . He's thinking about Jon and going to speak to Jon . The shirt's described in passing as being on "his" workbench I don't think there's any question that refers to Jon.

Any smithy/armoury would have a supply of horse shoes , nails , hooks, etc. .. and spare rings for ringmail on supply - repairs and replacements are always needed.

It doesn't take a smith or an armourer to hook pre-made links together.

The men (including Jon) would be expected to care for their own equipment..sharpen their swords, clean their mail,etc. ... make what repairs they can on their own before turning to Donal. He already has plenty on his plate , and they have to know how to do it in the field ( We've seen Jon fashion handles for the obsidian knives at the fist , though no-one thought that was necessary at the time, and no-one requested it .. so he also likes to work with his hands. )

Donal was a competent and more than competent armourer ( or had been), but building a ringmail shirt is something best done by someone with two hands. It makes no sense that the shirt was being worked on by anyone other than Jon.

ETA: More weeks or months have passed since Sam's departure , and unlike the case of the obsidian knives , in this case, Jon knows he needs the kind of protection the shirt would provide.

[Lord of Nutella]

but if chainmail protected him, why did he fall to the ground?

[sj4iy]

sj4iy...

Let's be realistic. When Sam sees the shirt, it's been many weeks ( months, even ) since Jon moved into Noye's quarters. Did he leave Donal's other things lying about all that time? No. Do we read of any other clutter left by Donal still around? No. We read of spears neatly in racks , but not other half finished items here and there - only the mail shirt. GRRM is not describing a scene that is as Donal left it. Jon has already made the place his own.

Sam is not thinking about Donal or speaking about Donal . He's thinking about Jon and going to speak to Jon . The shirt's described in passing as being on "his" workbench I don't think there's any question that refers to Jon.

Any smithy/armoury would have a supply of horse shoes , nails , hooks, etc. .. and spare rings for ringmail on supply - repairs and replacements are always needed.

It doesn't take a smith or an armourer to hook pre-made links together.

The men (including Jon) would be expected to care for their own equipment..sharpen their swords, clean their mail,etc. ... make what repairs they can on their own before turning to Donal. He already has plenty on his plate , and they have to know how to do it in the field ( We've seen Jon fashion handles for the obsidian knives at the fist , though no-one at the time thought that was necessary , and no-one requested it .. so he also likes to work with his hands. )

Donal was a competent and more than competent armourer ( or had been), but building a ringmail shirt is something best done by someone with two hands. It makes no sense that the shirt was being worked on by anyone other than Jon.

ETA: More weeks or months have passed since Sam's departure , and unlike the case of the obsidian knives , in this case, Jon knows he needs the kind of protection the shirt would provide.

Let's be realistic.

Where does it say that Jon has the skills to be a blacksmith?

Where does it say that Jon has the time to work on something so tedious as making ring mail?

Now, it DOES say:

He means to plunder our armory, Jon realized. Food and clothing, land and castles, now weapons. He draws me in deeper every day. Words might not be swords, but swords were swords. “I could find three hundred spears,” he said, reluctantly. “Helms as well, if you’ll take them old and dinted and red with rust.”

“Armor?” asked the Magnar. “Plate? Mail?”

“When Donal Noye died we lost our armorer.” The rest Jon left unspoken.

And Jon doesn't live in the armory. He lives in the quarters behind the armory. Sam has to walk THROUGH the armory to get to Jon's quarters. Why would Jon clean out the armory? It makes no sense. And why would Jon work on ring mail when it's highly probably that he could simply just find some that the Night's Watch already has? He's the LC...if he wants ring mail, he can have it.

I'm being very realistic. Nothing about this theory makes any sense at all.

[Mrmanakan]

Maybe your right, but it was still mentioned in the books it's possible it's nothing. But then again every little detail in these books seem to matter. And I'd rather cling to a hope that Jon's alive rather then thinking he's going to be resurrected like berric or become like Vic(which isn't As bad) but if he's near death and looks like he's gonna die a slaughter at the wall is about to happen and it's the end for the wall it will be left Undefended and most of the crows will be killed

[UtherSnow]

I don't have anything against Jon. I just think it would be very Disney if he comes back to live just after he died, that's all.

How many items of clothing does he have on? Many layers, because it's f-ing cold at The Wall. (And even double f-ing cold beyond and going north of The Wall.) PLUS.... what else will be there? Chain mail of some sort underneath everything. Why does Jon say to himself 'Stick 'em with the pointy end'?

How close are his attackers? It's a rush job as well. No one will be pinpoint accurate to make a real deep nasty cut.... Unless you're called Bowen Marsh (a former Bolton man), and he leaves his knife IN Jon.

“Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. “For the Watch.” He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.”

Had one of the stabs been fatal, there would be nothing from Jon....... Shock sets in immediately when a main artery is severed. Also, when a stab is just a wound, like from a hunting knife, it feels like you've been kicked or punched. There is no feeling of heat or cold. It's only when you take the next step, and fall down, you see you've been stabbed.

Anybody who's been in this situation knows. October 30th, 1983 - It's a date that remains with me forever. I gave evidence in court on my birthday the following year.

One vital thing to note - Never pull a knife out of where it's wounded you. There's more chance of doing serious permanent damage, even cause death. It should only be removed by someone with medical knowledge, like a paramedic (at least).

I'm not sorry to disappoint so many who think Jon is dead. Jon is alive, albeit in very bad shape.

[sj4iy]

How many items of clothing does he have on? Many layers, because it's f-ing cold at The Wall. (And even double f-ing cold beyond and going north of The Wall.) PLUS.... what else will be there? Chain mail of some sort underneath everything. Why does Jon say to himself 'Stick 'em with the pointy end'?

How close are his attackers? It's a rush job as well. No one will be pinpoint accurate to make a real deep nasty cut.... Unless you're called Bowen Marsh (a former Bolton man), and he leaves his knife IN Jon.

“Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. “For the Watch.” He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.”

Had one of the stabs been fatal, there would be nothing from Jon....... Shock sets in immediately when a main artery is severed. Also, when a stab is just a wound, like from a hunting knife, it feels like you've been kicked or punched. There is no feeling of heat or cold. It's only when you take the next step, and fall down, you see you've been stabbed.

Anybody who's been in this situation knows. October 30th, 1983 - It's a date that remains with me forever. I gave evidence in court on my birthday the following year.

One vital thing to note - Never pull a knife out of where it's wounded you. There's more chance of doing serious permanent damage, even cause death. It should only be removed by someone with medical knowledge, like a paramedic (at least).

I'm not sorry to disappoint so many who think Jon is dead. Jon is alive, albeit in very bad shape.

Yeah, I don't think Jon is fatally wounded. All of his injuries are survivable (from what we know in the text...admittedly, there is a lot of information missing).

I will say that shock sets in when the body isn't getting enough blood flow, and not necessarily because of a severed artery. I've never been stabbed, but I've gone into shock about 4 times in the past 5 years when my blood pressure suddenly bottomed out. I don't remember it very clearly, but I do remember being very, very cold. That's really what I remember the most about it, really. Jon could either be feeling the cold from blood loss or from falling on the cold ground, though. The entire scene is very unreliable.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

Tormund I think would be an interesting character for a POV only because he will be the only Wilding character with a POV.

Varamyr Sixskins

[bemused]

sj4iy..

First of all, I didn't mean that to sound snarky , or combative to you personally and I apologise it it came off that way. If you could hear me, my tone would be more "But.. wait a minute" rather than "Wait just a god damned minute ! ".. ;) ..I hope that's clear.

From the get-go Jon has been a thoughtful and observant character who, to paraphrase Benjen, doesn't miss much. ( Of course that doesn't mean that he doesn't miss anything.) I don't think it's realistic to assume that he would or wouldn't think he needed a mail shirt based solely on Mel's warnings . He doesn't trust her , and already knows he has enemies. When she offers to name them , he thinks he could probably do that without her. Of course he'd take reasonable precautions, insofar as they wouldn't make him look as if he was afraid to step out of his door ( bad PR ), or give his enemies more information than they deserve.

As I said before ,I don't think he'd need to be a blacksmith , particularly if there was a supply of links on hand ..and it's only reasonable to think there would be. I think he'd want the shirt to fit well under his normal attire, and not be easily visible .. and since gossip is rife at Castle Black, it would be better not to order anyone else to do it.

I'm suggesting that he's probably found a partially finished generic shirt that he could adapt for himself , or even a finished one that needed a lot of altering ( shortening , lengthening , sections removed ,etc. )... and I wouldn't rule out that he could build it from scratch out of loose rings if necessary , but I think the first suggestion is far more likely. ...We don't know what "half- completed" means, precisely ..half a shirt ? or a shirt that's had sections removed and needs putting back together ?

We don't know how much time he may have spent hanging around Mikken's forge as a boy.. but it almost goes without saying that he would have spent some time and ( coupling this with having to care for his own equipment) he'd have some rudimentary knowledge , at least... And with his quarters being attached to the armoury, he'd definitely have all the tools he'd need.

We don't follow Jon's every waking moment even during his chapters , never mind the time that passes between those chapters. We know he finds/makes time for the training yard during the day, very often. We know he's done some reading ... that could happen during the day, or night .. We see him go to visit Clydas ...what else might he do of an evening ? Could be all kinds of things.. we've only read of Jon having one bath at Castle Black, but I rather doubt that's the only one he's had. We know he's had time to have conversations with other characters, and know he must have had them ( e.g. Val , before sending her out , and we know he's been trying to converse with WunWun), we just didn't see them happen. ..So, I don't think it can realistically be argued that he's had no time to do something that could be so important.

When Sam sees the shirt , Slynt and Thorne ( both of whom he knows have deadly intent ) are still around , and trying to turn more men against him.(Notably, Bowen and Yarwick) ... Moving forward , "Rattleshirt" also becomes a fixture at CB ( Jon has reason to be leery of him ) .. Jon doesn't fully know what to expect from the wildlings at Mole's Town ( might be wise to be cautious).. He knows he's in danger taking the recruits out to swear their vows... Though he likes and may trust Val and Tormund personally, he knows he's in danger both in going to Tormund's camp and when Tormund's people come through the wall. Would he have taken the precaution of putting archers on the wall overseeing the crossing and not tried to protect his own body ? I really doubt it.

Again, in his last chapter , even though he doesn't expect an immediate attack from Bowen's lot, he'd been in the shieldhall with 200 (give or take) wildlings ,with no guarantees that they'd receive what he had to tell them as favourably as they did. Jon is now 17.He's seen a lot. He's not stupid and we haven't actually seen him do anything really reckless for 3 yrs.

I didn't mean to say that Jon cleared out the armoury, but that it would have been made navigable to those coming to visit him, and anything personal to Donal would have been moved, rather than left around to clutter up the place,. But let's see.From AFFC..

The Lord Commander’s Tower had been gutted by fire, and Stannis Baratheon had claimed the King’s Tower for his own residence, so Jon Snow had established himself in Donal Noye’s modest quarters behind the armory.

This is followed by Sam's conversation with Gilly, Sam dropping his books and musing on their contents (and how he felt when Gilly mentioned her breasts), and then...

“Lord Snow is waiting.” Two guards in black cloaks and iron halfhelms stood by the doors of the armory, leaning on their spears. Hairy Hal was the one who’d spoken. Mully helped Sam back to his feet. He blurted out thanks and hurried past them, clutching desperately at the stack of books as he made his way past the forge with its anvil and bellows. A shirt of ringmail rested on his workbench, half-completed. Ghost was stretched out beneath the anvil, gnawing on the bone of an ox to get at the marrow. The big white direwolf looked up when Sam went by, but made no sound.

Jon’s solar was back beyond the racks of spears and shields.

Donal has not been mentioned for some time and then was only mentioned as part of a description of Jon's quarters.. Now, "Lord Snow" is mentioned, then the shirt and "his workbench" ..too far removed in the text to clearly refer to Noye, and right next to something that is Jon's ..Ghost. Also , if "his workbench" referred to Donal , why is it "the forge" and "the anvil" ? I think it's because Jon is actually using the workbench while no one has been doing any serious smithing since Donal.

Jon's solar is at the back , but his guards are always at the door of the armoury. The whole armoury is Jon's domain, as it was Noye's.

Why were Donal Noye's quarters behind the armoury in the first place?... Besides being handy for him, it meant no-one could just walk into the armoury and help themselves. Noye's old quarters may be modest , but it's not entirely a "modest" move for Jon to situate himself there (in spite of what Mel thinks).

In his day , Mormont could trust that Noye had his eye on the armoury. Until Jon can find a solid , trustworthy replacement for Noye, or just generally surround himself with officers he can trust , it's an excellent place for him be, and gives him some control .. Makes it difficult for anyone to "plunder" the armoury ,or even come in and take inventory, without causing a major incident .. and thus makes it easier for Jon to "leave unspoken" just how much plate or mail they might have.

And I have to say, I see nothing in that quote from Stannis' "war council" to say Jon could not modify or build a mail shirt to suit his specific needs... a sort of medieval approximation of a kevlar undershirt. One-size-fits-all wouldn't do.

Lord of Nutella.. I think Jon fell forward as a result of the third blow , which I don't think was an actual stab. I won't give the complete breakdown here because it's involved and would totally derail this thread ; I'll just start a new thread , probably in the general ASOIAF section.

Anyway I agree Jon will go south, he is the one Stark perfectly suited to re-establish WF, and whether or not the NW could find another Stark LC .. I have a feeling that having a Stark in WF may be even more important.

[sj4iy]

^My point was that it makes no sense for Jon to make his own ring mail when he simply could have worn some that was already made. He's the LC, he can have that sort of thing if he wants it.

I don't think he was wearing ring mail because the dagger to the stomach wouldn't have penetrated the way it did if he had been.

[bemused]

^My point was that it makes no sense for Jon to make his own ring mail when he simply could have worn some that was already made. He's the LC, he can have that sort of thing if he wants it.

I don't think he was wearing ring mail because the dagger to the stomach wouldn't have penetrated the way it did if he had been.

I understand , but my point is that any shirts that were already made up would be pretty generic and fit poorly , whereas Jon would be wanting something that fit close to the body ..his body ..not just anyone's. Something that wouldn't show under what he normally wore. Of course he can have one, that goes without saying ... but it makes all kinds of sense to me that he might not want to advertise it. In which case , he wouldn't get someone else to make alterations ( or make a whole shirt) for him.

As for the dagger, we don't know how deeply it penetrated. If he was wearing mail and it was thrust straight in, point first ( and I assume it was) it would pierce more easily than a slash , but perhaps only so far as the space between rings would allow.. I'm assuming like most knives, that it got wider closer to the hilt.. but we don't know how much wider ,how quickly, that was. ...And I'm sticking to the idea that when GRRM writes Jon "wrenched it free", that means it was stuck in his mail. (Note Jon didn't twist it)

I used to think Jon was pretty seriously hurt , but would survive and would need no resurrection.Now I think that he's probably even less seriously hurt than I originally thought....based on GRRM's tricky use of language, among other things.

UtherSnow... Well ,I had to check it out , because I've seen a number of people recently claiming that Bowen is a former Bolton man .. when I know that from the time I first started coming here (just after ADWD came out) until fairly recently, the wiki said House Reed was House Marsh's overlord. I'm betting this Bolton business is just someone making the wiki compatible with political developments in ADWD. If you check Houses Dustin, Cerwyn, Tallhart, Umber, Manderly..etc , etc.. they all show House Bolton as their overlord... Only the entries for House Reed and the Clans still say House Stark.

So, I wouldn't be too quick to assume Bowen knew what he was doing any better than the other attackers. I disagree that he left his knife in Jon intentionally - because he "pulled" his hand away. It sounds like he intended to pull it out, but couldn't.. (again , stuck in mail).

There are so many other, clearer ways GRRM could have put it.. "dropped his hand" .."let go" .. " released the knife".. "drew his hand away.." ... And I'm sure he could have thought of many more than I can , just off the top of my head. I think he wants us to question that use of "pulled".

[JonisHenryTudor]

but if chainmail protected him, why did he fall to the ground?

No different from an NFL player being hit. Pads don't stop one from losing their footing. He just received a gut punch. The blade penetrated some. Even if the blade did not penetrate, have you ever been hit in the stomach unprepared and still managed to stand? Most people would double over.

Also not long ago there was a military history experiment regarding mail and weapons. Most weapons can cut through mail, it is a matter of how far it can penetrate.

[Lord of Nutella]

okay you are right, when i think back to the times i got unprepred blows in the belly, i remember that it was really hard to stay on my feet. but my problem with the "he isnt wounded badly" theory is the last sentence: "he didnt even feel the 4th dagger, only the cold...".

too me this sounds like a bad loss of blood.

[JonisHenryTudor]

okay you are right, when i think back to the times i got unprepred blows in the belly, i remember that it was really hard to stay on my feet. but my problem with the "he isnt wounded badly" theory is the last sentence: "he didnt even feel the 4th dagger, only the cold...".

too me this sounds like a bad loss of blood.

That is true. But consider this. Only the cold...

1. The 4th dagger never came, because the attackers attention was turned away from Jon. There are two possibilities here, one I like more than the other. First, Jon (I mentioned above I think?) recites Ghost's name. I believe that Jon looked up and saw Ghost. This of course would draw his attackers away, and in the process once reality sets in he probably felt the cold air. There is another possibility, which I am not fond of. That is the horn could have blown, and the WW's arrived outside the wall. What we know of the WW's is that everything is colder when they are around, so it is possible that they have arrived. Again, I am not fond of that idea. I am more inclined to believe the former, and that MArsh and co. were forced to turn to Ghost and Jon sat their in the cold air. The narrative already mentions that the air was cold. Right after he whispers Ghost's name, is struck, and then only feels the cold.

2. He could have lost enough blood, but you sort of just answered your own question. In very cold weather, blood tends to coagulate, or congeal, much faster than typical. The loss of blood could cause one to feel cold, and you would be right there. The thing about this scene is that it is tremendously ambiguous. Jon was stabbed in the belly. Where in the belly? The side, dead center? Also the dagger Jon was struck with doesn't appear to be very long. Daggers are not long. Jon's pov shows that he was punched in the stomach. It seems that Marsh's movement appeared to be a punch, which suggests that the blade is relatively short considering the motion appeared to Jon as a punch. We know he "found the hilt" and wretched it free, but that doesn't say how deep the wound is or where it is. Obviously the wound is bad enough to cause Jon some pain.

I know this is way to critical of a look at the scene, but there are so many holes and possibilities that it is mind numbing.

I do confess after I read the final page that I chucked the book and refused to read on. Then I read the chapter again and I realized that was a pathetic overreaction on my part. After a second read, I immediately noticed all of the holes in the scene.

I do think most posters are in agreement that we don't want a resurrection aka Beric. Obviously that could happen, but I think we have enough of those already. I am hoping that this unwavering power at the wall has something to do with the entire scene as it unfolds. I am not sure that I would enjoy Mel having anything to do with Jon's survival.