House Frey: Doomed?

[paramount]

1) The religious order want to see the guilty Frey's punished for it. That's it. No hate there.

2) Sansa doesn't have the Vale. The Vale belongs to Robert Arryn and if he dies it goes to Harry Arryn. It's not even a sure thing that Harry will marry Sansa. Also, the Vale lords don't want to wholesale massacre the Frey's. The Royces are married into the family and Anya Waynwoods fostering a Frey girl.

3) All I'm saying is that the idea that Westeros hates the Frey's is wrong.

I do agree with most of your statement but the Royces sort of hate the Freys. The Royces are at good terms with the Starks and wanted the Vale to back them up during thier war. As for other lords the Lannisters, Brackens and Tyrells don't hate the Freys and Lancel is lord of Darry and has a Frey wife.

[TheLionOfTheRock]

1) The religious order want to see the guilty Frey's punished for it. That's it. No hate there.

2) Sansa doesn't have the Vale. The Vale belongs to Robert Arryn and if he dies it goes to Harry Arryn. It's not even a sure thing that Harry will marry Sansa. Also, the Vale lords don't want to wholesale massacre the Frey's. The Royces are married into the family and Anya Waynwoods fostering a Frey girl.

3) All I'm saying is that the idea that Westeros hates the Frey's is wrong.

1) Religious orders have a massive influence on people's opinions. If they want to see someone punished, they will.

2) Littlefinger wants Sansa to marry Harrold Hardyng and rule the Vale - Littlefinger wanted the War of Five Kings, he wanted Jon Arryn dead, he wanted Harrenhal, he wanted to marry Lysa and thus control the Vale, he wanted the Tyrell-Lannister alliance and for Joffrey to die, he wanted Sansa to leave King's Landing and for Marillion to get the blame for Lysa's murder. Littlefinger usually gets what he wants - except Cat but you can't have everything.

3) No-one said everyone hates the Freys, but it is very possible as I have explained that several of the prominent families and many smallfolk have strong opinions against them.

[Lee-Sensei]

I do agree with most of your statement but the Royces sort of hate the Freys. The Royces are at good terms with the Starks and wanted the Vale to back them up during thier war. As for other lords the Lannisters, Brackens and Tyrells don't hate the Freys and Lancel is lord of Darry and has a Frey wife.

The Royces didn't want the Vale to back the North. They wanted to ally with the North. Back suggests subordination. The Royces, like most people see Walder Frey breaking guest rights as a terrible crime. It doesn't mean they hate them wholesale. The Brackens hate the Frey's. I'm almost sure of that.

[TheLionOfTheRock]

I do agree with most of your statement but the Royces sort of hate the Freys. The Royces are at good terms with the Starks and wanted the Vale to back them up during thier war. As for other lords the Lannisters, Brackens and Tyrells don't hate the Freys and Lancel is lord of Darry and has a Frey wife.

Bracken's probably do hate the Frey's, the lost men at the RW too, they're just more concerned with the Blackwood's. The Lannisters need the Frey's but they aren't doing anything to help them, Cersei ignores them and Jaime does despise them. The Tyrells have a reputation to uphold, which the RW puts in jeopardy, if they don't try and punish them, then they are at least not going to help then. Lancel has put aside Darry and his wife in order to serve the Faith Militant.

[Lee-Sensei]

1) Religious orders have a massive influence on people's opinions. If they want to see someone punished, they will.

2) Littlefinger wants Sansa to marry Harrold Hardyng and rule the Vale - Littlefinger wanted the War of Five Kings, he wanted Jon Arryn dead, he wanted Harrenhal, he wanted to marry Lysa and thus control the Vale, he wanted the Tyrell-Lannister alliance and for Joffrey to die, he wanted Sansa to leave King's Landing and for Marillion to get the blame for Lysa's murder. Littlefinger usually gets what he wants - except Cat but you can't have everything.

3) No-one said everyone hates the Freys, but it is very possible as I have explained that several of the prominent families and many smallfolk have strong opinions against them.

1) Yes. The guilty parties. That still doesn't mean that everyone in Westeros hates the Freys.

2) Hm. It doesn't work like that. There are two books left and Harry doesn't even need to keep LF around if SR dies. There's no evidence that they'd be able to control them. Sansa doesn't want to be in the Vale. And if the Vale Lords find out that they've been killing Arryns... Jon and Robert, LF and Sansa would be shunted out the Moon Door.

3) People have said that. The people in the Riverlands and the North hate the Freys. The rest of Westeros doesn't. They don't see the Frey's as trustworthy. They see the RW as a crime. But that's about as far as it goes. As the Lord of Borrell said, "had it been my son, I would have returned the Frey's courtesy and thanked the Frey's before I hanged them." But it wasn't his son. It wasn't his pain. They have no reason to be so invested in the Frey's and even the people who were out killing them (The BW), are getting tired of it. They don't see it as justice.

[TheLionOfTheRock]

1) Yes. The guilty parties. That still doesn't mean that everyone in Westeros hates the Freys.

2) Hm. It doesn't work like that. There are two books left and Harry doesn't even need to keep LF around if SR dies. There's no evidence that they'd be able to control them. Sansa doesn't want to be in the Vale. And if the Vale Lords find out that they've been killing Arryns... Jon and Robert, LF and Sansa would be shunted out the Moon Door.

3) People have said that. The people in the Riverlands and the North hate the Freys. The rest of Westeros doesn't. They don't see the Frey's as trustworthy. They see the RW as a crime. But that's about as far as it goes. As the Lord of Borrell said, "had it been my son, I would have returned the Frey's courtesy and thanked the Frey's before I hanged them." But it wasn't his son. It wasn't his pain. They have no reason to be so invested in the Frey's and even the people who were out killing them (The BW), are getting tired of it. They don't see it as justice.

1) I haven't said everyone hates the Freys, but if a religion condemns people (calling for their deaths as justice) then obviously, opinions towards them aren't going to be great. Look at Christian attitudes to Saracens during the crusades.

2) Littlefinger is still The Lord Protector of the Vale, so I think he's going to be a bit careful with SR for the moment, don't you think? Also, Sansa just wants to go home, doesn't mean she dislikes being in the Vale. She probably recognises the usefulness of the Vale in getting her what she wants. And As the key to the North, I think Harry would be glad to marry her and help press her claim, while eliminating the Freys as justice. Why would they kill Jon anyway? Which Jon are you referring to?

3) I did not say that, which is the point. You cannot take one complaint from Thoros of Myr as meaning that everyone is getting tired of killing Freys, the Manderlys certainly are n't.

4) You seem to be ignoring other parts of my argument. With the Manderly's

, Umber's and even the Hornwood men likely to turn on Roose and the Frey's. With a significant portion of Frey's host in the North, the Twins will be considerably weaker, paving the way for Stannis to destroy them and win the support of the rest of the North and the Riverlands. Additionally, if either (possibly) fAegon or Dany want to win the support of the Riverlands and the North, a good place to start would destroying the Freys, who represent lannister power in the Riverlands.

5) One of your point's was that only the people in the North and the Riverlands hate them. So?This doesn't help them, seeing as they live in the Riverlands and are one of the closest houses to the North and basically everyone, even their uneasy allies, like the Dustin's are angry over the RW.

[Lee-Sensei]

1) I haven't said everyone hates the Freys, but if a religion condemns people (calling for their deaths as justice) then obviously, opinions towards them aren't going to be great. Look at Christian attitudes to Saracens during the crusades.

2) Littlefinger is still The Lord Protector of the Vale, so I think he's going to be a bit careful with SR for the moment, don't you think? Also, Sansa just wants to go home, doesn't mean she dislikes being in the Vale. She probably recognises the usefulness of the Vale in getting her what she wants. And As the key to the North

1) I didn't say you did. They're calling for the deaths of the guilty parties. Not the Frey's in general.

2) LF said he's going to kill off SR soon and Sansa says the Vale isn't the place for her. If Harry were to agree to marry her, that would mean she's stuck in the Vale.

1) I haven't said everyone hates the Freys, but if a religion condemns people (calling for their deaths as justice) then obviously, opinions towards them aren't going to be great. Look at Christian attitudes to Saracens during the crusades.

2) Littlefinger is still The Lord Protector of the Vale, so I think he's going to be a bit careful with SR for the moment, don't you think? Also, Sansa just wants to go home, doesn't mean she dislikes being in the Vale. She probably recognises the usefulness of the Vale in getting her what she wants. And As the key to the North

1

[Blackfish Tully]

One other person to consider in the future of House Frey is Stannis. If Stannis wins in the North then he will want to head South because he wants to be King and he knows that only a unified Westeroes can stop the White Walkers. He was able to unify his Northmen because they were going to "save Ned's girl" but getting them to join him in invading the South is going to be a much harder sell unless he starts his argument with "the first thing we do when we go South is attack the Twins and destroy House Frey" The North remembers and that argument will get every Northmen on his side. Plus the Riverlords would probably join him if he's attacking the Freys.

[TheLionOfTheRock]

One other person to consider in the future of House Frey is Stannis. If Stannis wins in the North then he will want to head South because he wants to be King and he knows that only a unified Westeroes can stop the White Walkers. He was able to unify his Northmen because they were going to "save Ned's girl" but getting them to join him in invading the South is going to be a much harder sell unless he starts his argument with "the first thing we do when we go South is attack the Twins and destroy House Frey" The North remembers and that argument will get every Northmen on his side. Plus the Riverlords would probably join him if he's attacking the Freys.

Exactly.

[the marsh king]

One other person to consider in the future of House Frey is Stannis. If Stannis wins in the North then he will want to head South because he wants to be King and he knows that only a unified Westeroes can stop the White Walkers. He was able to unify his Northmen because they were going to "save Ned's girl" but getting them to join him in invading the South is going to be a much harder sell unless he starts his argument with "the first thing we do when we go South is attack the Twins and destroy House Frey" The North remembers and that argument will get every Northmen on his side. Plus the Riverlords would probably join him if he's attacking the Freys.

:agree:

[The Bloody Hound]

I think the end of House Frey is foreshadowed.

It's said several times that if Lord Walder dies thr House is likely to turn on itself.

Jaime says that if Lord Walder dies before Ryman, the house is basically done for.

Also, there is a bridge on their sigil. Maybe once Lord Walder dies/is killed the house will destroy itself like a bridge collapsing under it's own weight.

Just a thought. [emoji1]

[TheLionOfTheRock]

I think the end of House Frey is foreshadowed.

It's said several times that if Lord Walder dies thr House is likely to turn on itself.

Jaime says that if Lord Walder dies before Ryman, the house is basically done for.

Also, there is a bridge on their sigil. Maybe once Lord Walder dies/is killed the house will destroy itself like a bridge collapsing under it's own weight.

Just a thought. :D

All perfectly valid points and very true. I like their sigil serving as a metaphor for their downfall, that would be very poetic IMO. By that logic, hopefully Roose and Ramsay will end up being flayed.

[TheLionOfTheRock]

1) I didn't say you did. They're calling for the deaths of the guilty parties. Not the Frey's in general.

2) LF said he's going to kill off SR soon and Sansa says the Vale isn't the place for her. If Harry were to agree to marry her, that would mean she's stuck in the Vale.

1

They still don't know which Frey's are to blame exactly. If I were being very picky I would say that I didn't say that you said I did.

Unless he presses her claim on the North, if something happens to Rickon, then Sansa will be the unchallenged heir, Harrold only needs her for heirs, he could do what many lords (like Stannis did) do and leave her at Winterfell, while visiting her occasionally to make heirs. Also, LF will not kill off SR until the marriage is done, why give up his power for nothing? Also, adding to what you said earlier, how would the Vale lords found out he was killing Arryns? He already got away with Lysa's murder and SR is a sickly young boy who has regular fits. No-one would bat and eye at his sudden death, they'd be saddened but they wouldn't think it was especially suspicious.

[Lee-Sensei]

They still don't know which Frey's are to blame exactly. If I were being very picky I would say that I didn't say that you said I did.

Unless he presses her claim on the North, if something happens to Rickon, then Sansa will be the unchallenged heir, Harrold only needs her for heirs, he could do what many lords (like Stannis did) do and leave her at Winterfell, while visiting her occasionally to make heirs. Also, LF will not kill off SR until the marriage is done, why give up his power for nothing? Also, adding to what you said earlier, how would the Vale lords found out he was killing Arryns? He already got away with Lysa's murder and SR is a sickly young boy who has regular fits. No-one would bat and eye at his sudden death, they'd be saddened but they wouldn't think it was especially suspicious.

1) Walder Frey for starters. It's irrelevant though. The point is they only want the guilty parties punished.

2) Or maybe he won't want to marry her at all. Or maybe the Vale lords will find out that they killed Jon Arryn and Robert Arryn and throw them out the Moon Door for it? Or maybe Sansa will refuse because the Eyrie isn't the place for her. She wants to go home.

3) All of the sudden deaths around LF for starters? Jon Arryn brings him to KL and he dies. Lysa brings him to the Eyrie and dies. Robert Arryn dies and presumably Harry dies too once Sansa's with child. Plus there's Maester Coleman. LF's a smart guy, but it stands to reason that the doctor knows more about medicine and would be able to figure it out.

[TheLionOfTheRock]

1) Walder Frey for starters. It's irrelevant though. The point is they only want the guilty parties punished.

2) Or maybe he won't want to marry her at all. Or maybe the Vale lords will find out that they killed Jon Arryn and Robert Arryn and throw them out the Moon Door for it? Or maybe Sansa will refuse because the Eyrie isn't the place for her. She wants to go home.

3) All of the sudden deaths around LF for starters? Jon Arryn brings him to KL and he dies. Lysa brings him to the Eyrie and dies. Robert Arryn dies and presumably Harry dies too once Sansa's with child. Plus there's Maester Coleman. LF's a smart guy, but it stands to reason that the doctor knows more about medicine and would be able to figure it out.

1) They know others were to blame - but which ones? Once old Walder dies it will be a battle-royale for control and they will all blame each other.

2) I already explained why he would want to marry her, plus it's not about 'want'. How? The Vale Lords are not the brightest sparks and their is no reason to be suspicious for either of the deaths: Jon was very old and even if they did think something was up, they'd probably blame the Lannisters, using the whole "he discovered the incest bastards" thing. Robin was/is a sickly lad who has regular fits and has apparently been getting worse since Lysa died. Sansa probably won't get much of a say plus I have already explained how she could marry him and go home.

3) He was with Jon Arryn in KL for quite a while before Jon died - I have already explained why this is not so suspicious - at least in terms of Littlefinger doing it. The Lords Declarant are already satisfied that Marillion killed Lysa - no suspicion there. He doesn't need to kill Harry particular, he may have his own uses. Maester Coleman being a doctor doesn't mean he can read Littlefinger's mind. Even if Littlefinger has SR poisoned, which he doesn't have to do, he could have him smothered in his sleep, or arrange for him to 'fall' while climbing back up to the Eyrie, then he could always make a deal with Coleman, a promised reward may by his silence. If not, well then, maybe it was Coleman who poisoned SR through incorrect medication, seems like he'd be the one going through the Moon Door...

4) You are still yet to address the other issues present here.

[John Hulboy]

The Freys of the Crossing are doomed . Roslin an her brothers will take there mothers name Rosby that's the only way they survive .imho I also believe olyvar may already be at Rosbys castle he is the ward talked about by Pycelle

[UtherSnow]

The probability of House Frey imploding is growing by the page. It will start with who keeps The Twins, and its associate wealth. It will go on through dividing whatever wealth Walder leaves behind. I doubt many will be satisfied with their share. It won't appear to equal others for many reasons.

[TheLionOfTheRock]

The probability of House Frey imploding is growing by the page. It will start with who keeps The Twins, and its associate wealth. It will go on through dividing whatever wealth Walder leaves behind. I doubt many will be satisfied with their share. It won't appear to equal others for many reasons.

Brilliant point. I particularly liked your use of "by the page" instead of "by the day".

[GHOSTSTARK]

I sincerely hope to see Lady Stoneheart hang each and every one of them.

Doubtful, but I will be content with her hanging Walder Frey if anything.

:agree:

or let Black Walder kill them all

[TheLionOfTheRock]

:agree:

or let Black Walder kill them all

Black Walder also needs to die.