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Blazfemur

[Spoilers All] Two Night's Watch/Their 'True' History; The Others' Purpose; TNK; Etc

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I don't live too far from that area. Some time ago, I did my own family's tree, which includes branches in Scotland, and in Ireland. That took me on a journey through the past like no other I've done. Up around the area to the north of Hadrian's Wall is magnificent country. Finding out there was another wall is a revelation when Hadrian's Wall takes all of the limelight. I know what George was seeing, and where references are in the books.

Is there a part of the wall near Edinburgh. I'll be filming there in september during referendum and I'd love to do a story about the second wall.

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Is there a part of the wall near Edinburgh. I'll be filming there in september during referendum and I'd love to do a story about the second wall.

There's not much left to see. This wall ran from The Firth of Clyde to The Firth of Forth. Considering its significance, marking the most northerly part of The Roman Empire, you would expect something. What is clear to see is where GRRM takes a lot of his influences.

When I found out, it really was a revelation to find out something I never knew about. Not bad considering I'd gone to a rave (plus, I got on for a DJ set). Who said raves aren't educational?

For local information, I think I'd give Tourist Information a try.

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Yeah, not that science discovered there is any kind of relation among electromagnetic waveforms and high temperatures, or that light bulbs work on that principle.

There is even this neat fact on black-holes.

Oh, but Melisandre doesn't know about that. Maybe she doesn't know about glowing fishes and fireflies as well.

ETA: The latter part of your sentence is really funny, considered what you [plural] are making here.

Work with the science of the times. Don't add what's been discovered in more recent times. Folklore is allowed, when its of that age.

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Work with the science of the times. Don't add what's been discovered in more recent times. Folklore is allowed, when its of that age.

Yeah, I did exactly that. Did you read my entire post? I said she might not know about stuff you mentioned, thus your argument is invalid: unless proven otherwise, it is not objectively preposterous for her to have such association in mind.

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*sigh* Love the blatant troll and the theme he's going for, but we're gonna have to get back on track. I'm going to post later whenever these people stop calling. I like the two walls idea, I can say that. Who can tell what's in the land of always winter, this wall we know of, could be the entrance.

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Ok, not so much to go on in regards to formulating a theory on two walls, OTHER THAN, the (s) in the oath. However, i wouldn't discount it's existence, and here's why:



The Wall we know, beyond it, lies everything "beyond-the-wall (as a whole)", as well as, The Land Of Always Winter.



Consider the space, beyond the wall, and the land of always winter, and where the land of always winter ENDS. This is a planet, round, you end up on the other side eventually. The second wall, theoretically, would be at the end of (or in the middle of) the land of always winter, IF IT EXISTS.



if it exists, it's beyond where normal maps can define, and where mapmakers would have dared to travel. i would also brainstorm, the possibility, not only that The Others created The Wall, but rather created BOTH of them, in order to keep EVERYONE ELSE, out of their realm. like a castle has it's outer walls. in which case, if this is at all accurate, the wildlings, and the watch when they range and venture forth, would technically be (in the eyes of The Others) venturing onto THEIR land.



(sidebar: in regards to all these horns that exist, magical or otherwise. do not discount, that The Others may have ownership of them)


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Regarding the two walls theory, but apropos the discussion here, rather than that in the other thread that concerns two physical walls:



A longstanding operating premise for many over in the Heresy threads is that the Others are like the sidhe. Like the sidhe, they exist in a world parallel to our own, with there being "doors" between worlds; the Black Gate would be one such door (and in Heresy it is common for folks to suggest that it predates the physical Wall). It is also frequently assumed there, as the OP does here, that the Wall may not have been built to serve the function of keeping the Others out. Some speculate that the creation of the Wall was a result of a pact between the LH/NK with the Others. But my real point is to suggest that the Wall that we know and love is itself two Walls, the physical one built of ice and manned by the NW on their side, and a Wall invisible to us, manned by the Others, rather in the fashion proposed in the OP.



By the way, I'm not suggesting that the NW know any of this, or even did way back when, since the plural probably makes sense to them as simply signifying something like "I represent all watchers on walls everywhere." I mean, that does sort of make good sense, to think about the oath as having symbolic language.


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Regarding the two walls theory, but apropos the discussion here, rather than that in the other thread that concerns two physical walls:

A longstanding operating premise for many over in the Heresy threads is that the Others are like the sidhe. Like the sidhe, they exist in a world parallel to our own, with there being "doors" between worlds; the Black Gate would be one such door (and in Heresy it is common for folks to suggest that it predates the physical Wall). It is also frequently assumed there, as the OP does here, that the Wall may not have been built to serve the function of keeping the Others out. Some speculate that the creation of the Wall was a result of a pact between the LH/NK with the Others. But my real point is to suggest that the Wall that we know and love is itself two Walls, the physical one built of ice and manned by the NW on their side, and a Wall invisible to us, manned by the Others, rather in the fashion proposed in the OP.

By the way, I'm not suggesting that the NW know any of this, or even did way back when, since the plural probably makes sense to them as simply signifying something like "I represent all watchers on walls everywhere." I mean, that does sort of make good sense, to think about the oath as having symbolic language.

interesting. the one wall we know, interpreted as two. the wall of ice, and the magical barrier (as a wall), all in the same structure. not a bad concept.

as with all else, we also cant discount that there were rumors of watchmen built INTO the walls, or were these Others, or those of the Old Watch? (They watch, from WITHIN the very wall, supposedly. how did they get there? who PUT them there? was the wall a DEFENSE, from whomever they were? and they were cuaght int he cross-fire?)

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id also like to add, in regards to there possibly being two SEPARATE walls (the one we know, the other lying far in the lands of always winter), that would encompass the land between the two walls, as the area "beyond-the-wall," and The Land Of Always Winter. Perhaps the "tax," or the "right," the live and exist in this area, is the child sacrifice (which requires first men blood for The Turning).


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interesting. the one wall we know, interpreted as two. the wall of ice, and the magical barrier (as a wall), all in the same structure. not a bad concept.

as with all else, we also cant discount that there were rumors of watchmen built INTO the walls, or were these Others, or those of the Old Watch? (They watch, from WITHIN the very wall, supposedly. how did they get there? who PUT them there? was the wall a DEFENSE, from whomever they were? and they were cuaght int he cross-fire?)

Well, there's the 79 sentinels, who were deserters from the Night's Watch, and who as punishment were sealed into holes cut into the Wall, forced to carry on in death the watch they had deserted in life.

Ygritte tells Jon that the Wall is made of blood, not ice.

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Well, there's the 79 sentinels, who were deserters from the Night's Watch, and who as punishment were sealed into holes cut into the Wall, forced to carry on in death the watch they had deserted in life.

Ygritte tells Jon that the Wall is made of blood, not ice.

can you suspect the possibility, that these 79 in the wall, were those of the "old" watch? as in, deserters to the "new?" obviously there was a vendetta there.

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can you suspect the possibility, that these 79 in the wall, were those of the "old" watch? as in, deserters to the "new?" obviously there was a vendetta there.

Well, at the very least their story suggests an unending watch, which is similar to that you're proposing for the NK/13. But beyond that it's hard to say, other than that their story is connected to the themes of sacrifice and of ice preserving.

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Well, at the very least their story suggests an unending watch, which is similar to that you're proposing for the NK/13. But beyond that it's hard to say, other than that their story is connected to the themes of sacrifice and of ice preserving.

i just cant put behind the "i shall live and die at my post" line here, in accordance, to those buried IN the wall. if theyre turned, or not turned. If they are turned, into Other, and they were buried, perhaps thats the secret to the magic within the wall, and they're STILL "alive," which fuels the magic. or not, lol :)

"the wall defends itself."

certain lines that kinda ask questions

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With all due respect to the way Heresy operates, I cannot support the idea that GRRM would write "walls" in the NW oath while thinking about duality of the Wall itself. It's too arcane. If there is plural, there is plural. It is as simple as that.



The Wall has always been magical and everyone was always aware of that, but unlike magical barriers around the CotF/BR cave or Storm's End, this one is highly visible and made of ice and probably thousands of living creatures. Humans are certainly sacrificed to the Wall, some speculate giants and ice dragon may be inside the Wall. At this point, we can but speculate. However, one thing cannot be speculated about - the wall is not just a barrier and we don't see people in Storm's End for example swearing an oath to the magical barrier. The is oath is sworn by "watchers on the walls", not "watchers on the Wall". Also, the oath was introduced after TNK incident if I recall correctly. So, we have to wonder if the oath applies to the Others (as the old NW) or not at all. However, this doesn't make sense and I smell a rat, because the doors at the NF cannot be open without an oath, so the oath MUST HAVE been there from the beginning. The question is if it is the same oath. I would go with - yes, it is. One does not alter magical oaths just like that.



As for the turning as some kind of tax, I would also disagree with that and we have already discussed that. If that had been a tax, wildlings would have been paying it as well. Turnings would be numerous and the number of the Others would be huge. However, (and I am going to repeat myself now) if we run with the presumption that the Others are a second (or old) NW, then the rules of turning become mostly self-evident - only those of the NW can be turned. However, the original NW had FM only in their ranks, so the blood must be of the FM. In cases like Craster's, he is a son of a brother of the NW. He committed no crime, but imho, by definition the Others would turn him from preventing the blood of the NW being spread across the north (thus keeping the oath intact). My opinion is that he made a deal in order to be spared and offered his offspring to the Others. However, he had to prevent his daughters from marrying other men and so he created this incestuous commune where his blood got contained.



Finally, I'd remind you of another point that I made and you just brushed over and that is that I believe Mance's attack on the Wall has a deliberate magical rather than military purpose. "The Wall is as strong as the men who guard it are true" are very important words. NW is corrupt and to strengthen the Wall one can either:


- attack it with an overwhelming force and force the NW to fight against all odds thus strengthening the Wall itself with the strengthening of their resolve to defend it


- or enforce the oath like Starks in the south and the Others in the north have been doing


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Okay i haven't read through every post but here's my questions...



- Why do the WW strike a deal with Craster in the first place? Why don't the WW just steal babies from the Wildlings, who also have first men blood? Do they need these babies to be 'offered'? This is something I've wondered because surely, the WW could come in the night and take any baby....but then again, they probably do. Why don't the wildlings name their children before 2 years? I think because 2 years is the cut-off to when a baby can be turned into an Other. Maybe it is something special when the babies are 'offered to the gods' as craster's wives chanted.



- If the first 13 lord commanders of the night's watch became Others why did the tradition stop....? If the NW was on the side of the WW then why was the fight for dawn neccessary? If the WW just wanted to be left alone in their land, why did the first men feel the need to take over the wall? Does this have something to do with the Great Weirwood being on the wrong side of the wall, which was important to the First men and COTF? I personally think humans were always opposing the WW, the COTF have something to do with the origin of the WW as they were both (i think) the original inhabitants of Westeros. It seems the COTF straight up knew how to defeat them or the magic to block them (weirwood doors in the Nightsfort, BR's cave, mining dragonglass). Also it kind've makes sense because they are in natural opposition to each other...life/death, water/earth, cold/warmth...



- What is a White Walker (WW), what is an Other, and what did the Night's King become? Are they separate races, the same race with different phenotypes to subserve different functions?? For example are the WW like the equivalent of the first Rangers in the NW? I think the Night's King became something different to a pure Other/WW. Or is there such thing as a pure-blood other?



- So far we've seen that the Others mostly operate their magic on dead things. But you'll notice that Craster's baby was alive. In response to the mortality of the Others, i think the babies need to be alive at first so they can undergo a transformation of sorts. After the 'ice gift' i think they grow up faster than normal and reach maturity into a full Other much more quickly, as then only Craster's first/second son be old enough to actually fight. Once they are fully mature, then they fully become an Other. Also how many boy children did Craster father? i thought it was twelve....when i first saw that scene in the show i thought the 12 were Craster's sons.



- I'm not quite sure that the 'watcher on the walls' has much meaning in terms of there actually being two walls. Sure its a little suspicious. Couldn't it just mean 'walls' as in THE wall in different locations? I think it could also refer to them originally not just walking along the ice wall, but the castle walls too as the wall originally wasn't as tall.



- Also in regards to their magic, i think the WW have a magic similar to Wargs, in order to control their Wights. I also made a thread about this some time ago..you can read that here . I think that's relevant to this thread as it may open you to different views on the powers behind the WW/Others or the motivations behind their attacks on Mormont in aGOT.


---->Anyway my point is what were the first Stark Kings? They (in my mind) were obviously wargs to direwolves (i mean come on why is that their sigil) and this power i believe was given to them by the COTF in order to strike a deal. What was this deal? That the humans would guard the realm against the WW as they were the COTF enemies. In exchange, the COTF would bind the wall in magic, help to create it. Also the humans of first men blood would (at random) receive special warg/skinchanging powers chosen by the greenseer at that time, i'm not sure if this is related to the deal or just following the old gods. The first Starks were kings among their people and therefore struck the deal and therefore must always have Winterfell (for a reason i am unsure of yet), follow the rules of the NW and every now and then offer a Stark to the watch and also have some special magic tied to their bloodline.



But yeh, what do you think?

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Okay i haven't read through ever post but here's my questions...

- Why do the WW strike a deal with Craster in the first place? Why don't the WW just steal babies from the Wildlings, who also have first men blood? Do they need these babies to be 'offered'?

I'll work on this later

it's a lot to take in, take your time. we have at least another year until TWOW. lol. and we truly dont have much to go on. any input, being honest criticism, or support, is appreciated.

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it's a lot to take in, take your time. we have at least another year until TWOW. lol. and we truly dont have much to go on. any input, being honest criticism, or support, is appreciated.

Updated

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Okay i haven't read through every post but here's my questions...

- Why do the WW strike a deal with Craster in the first place? Why don't the WW just steal babies from the Wildlings, who also have first men blood? Do they need these babies to be 'offered'? This is something I've wondered because surely, the WW could come in the night and take any baby....but then again, they probably do. Why don't the wildlings name their children before 2 years? I think because 2 years is the cut-off to when a baby can be turned into an Other. Maybe it is something special when the babies are 'offered to the gods' as craster's wives chanted.

If Craster has First Men blood, each generation of incest strengthens the potency of First Men blood within each son/daughter. If the secret to "unlocking" Other in someone is First Men blood, this would be truly beneficial in increasing their numbers. The Others DO steal babies from other Wildlings as well, remember The Great Ranging Jon went on when he found that abandoned village? There's definitely a reason why they dont name their children, and i would put my money on it has something to do with The Others as well. Because, no one knew The Night's King's identity, just rumors, and Melisandre also refers to The Great Other as "the one whose name shall not be spoken."

- If the first 13 lord commanders of the night's watch became Others why did the tradition stop....? If the NW was on the side of the WW then why was the fight for dawn neccessary? If the WW just wanted to be left alone in their land, why did the first men feel the need to take over the wall? Does this have something to do with the Great Weirwood being on the wrong side of the wall, which was important to the First men and COTF? I personally think humans were always opposing the WW, the COTF have something to do with the origin of the WW as they were both (i think) the original inhabitants of Westeros. It seems the COTF straight up knew how to defeat them or the magic to block them (weirwood doors in the Nightsfort, BR's cave, mining dragonglass). Also it kind've makes sense because they are in natural opposition to each other...life/death, water/earth, cold/warmth...

The tradition didn't stop, they still steal babies, don't they? Also, it's not that the Night's Watch were on the side of The Others, it's that the original watch branched off with them after The Night's King was overthrown and exiled by the 14th Lord Commander. To further, I feel The Others are in fact the First Men, to further bolster their desire to turn anyone with First Men blood. Imagine The First Men (Others) who manipulate the cold, construct a wall of ice (or two) to keep out everyone else. The Night's Watch (who, in addition to being 'noble,' contain liars, rapists and criminals) invade the wall, overtake it, and have Bran the Builder build castles and forts all over the one we know.

- What is a White Walker (WW), what is an Other, and what did the Night's King become? Are they separate races, the same race with different phenotypes to subserve different functions?? For example are the WW like the equivalent of the first Rangers in the NW? I think the Night's King became something different to a pure Other/WW. Or is there such thing as a pure-blood other?

A white walker, IS, an Other. Wights are just resurrected corpses, but for the purposes of this series, as far as I know, White Walkers = Others. Supposedly, The Night's King ascended to Other through The Night's Queen (if she exists at all). Others, unlike wights, are intelligible. I do not believe Others/WW are a separate race, because simply, when they take a child and turn them, i wouldn't assume they can re-create a race from human. If there is a Night's Queen, perhaps she and only she, is the pure-blood, thus the ability to recreate Other in other people. On the show, The Night's King can do it because we've seen it. If he is in fact a Stark as Old Nan presumes, you can bet your ass all those Kings Of Winter in Winterfell's crypts will rise as OTHERS, not wights (they all have First Men blood).

- So far we've seen that the Others mostly operate their magic on dead things. But you'll notice that Craster's baby was alive. In response to the mortality of the Others, i think the babies need to be alive at first so they can undergo a transformation of sorts. After the 'ice gift' i think they grow up faster than normal and reach maturity into a full Other much more quickly, as then only Craster's first/second son be old enough to actually fight. Once they are fully mature, then they fully become an Other. Also how many boy children did Craster father? i thought it was twelve....when i first saw that scene in the show i thought the 12 were Craster's sons.

I think most/all Others can resurrect dead beings into wights. Perhaps ONLY The Night's King, can turn living beings into Other. The other white walkers may have a lesser resurrection power, and thus the reasoning for dumb-wights. In the single instance we witness, it was TNK turning living being, into Other. however, there's an army of wights, im assuming, the other 12, or more, have the lesser power. If Craster did only do 12, they could very well be the other 12 in that scene. Or, they could be the previous 12 Lord Commanders with The Night's King, who was the 13th. We also have to consider the legend of The Last Hero, was one of his 12 other companions.

- I'm not quite sure that the 'watcher on the walls' has much meaning in terms of there actually being two walls. Sure its a little suspicious. Couldn't it just mean 'walls' as in THE wall in different locations? I think it could also refer to them originally not just walking along the ice wall, but the castle walls too as the wall originally wasn't as tall.

You could be right. Then again, if we go beyond-the-wall, in the land of always winter, what is over there? There could be another one that cuts it off on the far-end. Or not. Who knows right now haha. The addition of the "s" on wall, hints that the oath itself may have been altered or inherited by The Night's Watch and then changed.

- Also in regards to their magic, i think the WW have a magic similar to Wargs, in order to control their Wights. I also made a thread about this some time ago..you can read that here . I think that's relevant to this thread as it may open you to different views on the powers behind the WW/Others or the motivations behind their attacks on Mormont in aGOT.

Well, if my First Men blood theory is correct, ANYONE with the blood can be educated to get in touch with warg ability. It's the first men blood that's the secret. It's connected. Bloodraven has it on his non-targaryen side, the wildlings have it. Mormont was a member of today's Night's Watch, the Watch that overthrew The Night's King. That's motivation enough for me. They claim they will hold no lands, and yet, don't they hold the wall, and almost held the lands in The Gift?

---->Anyway my point is what were the first Stark Kings? They (in my mind) were obviously wargs to direwolves (i mean come on why is that their sigil) and this power i believe was given to them by the COTF in order to strike a deal. What was this deal? That the humans would guard the realm against the WW as they were the COTF enemies. In exchange, the COTF would bind the wall in magic, help to create it. Also the humans of first men blood would (at random) receive special warg/skinchanging powers chosen by the greenseer at that time, i'm not sure if this is related to the deal or just following the old gods. The first Starks were kings among their people and therefore struck the deal and therefore must always have Winterfell (for a reason i am unsure of yet), follow the rules of the NW and every now and then offer a Stark to the watch and also have some special magic tied to their bloodline.

The first Stark Kings, The Kings in The North, are buried in Winterfell's crypts, supposedly held there by the iron blades. They aren't turned, as far as I can tell, as of yet, because they've had no contact with an Other (unless my crackpott hat The Night's Queen being imprisoned in the depths comes to pass, then she could turn them if she gets released). Again, i don't believe warging is a gift from the COTF, i think it's in the blood that Ned always brags about ("the blood of the first men runs in our veins") aka blood of the north. I think the "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell," and The Night's King trying to break past the wall (he may be Stark, remember) is connected. If he's a Stark, perhaps it takes a Stark to access the depths, where She may be hidden (or She may be made up). The Stark's were known to be brutal back when, I wouldn't be surprised if they had a similar deal Craster and the wildlings had. Remember, Ned polishes his sword by the tree by the pond, cleaning off the blood in the pond. That could be twisted into some sort of sacrifice.

Now, wights are dumb. Non-intelligible. Have we ever seen an Other, attack Jon Snow directly? Or just inferior dumb-wights that don't know better.

But yeh, what do you think?

just gonna respond within the quote (in bold)

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Not for nothing, try as i might to even down-talk my own theory for criticism sake, there appears to be a logical answer for almost every question


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