Greyjoy Appreciation Thread

[INCBlackbird]

You're making a lot of assumptions about me/my positions. And it is never okay to talk down to people, even if they have bad ideas. Fight what you think are my bad ideas with your good ideas if you want to, but personal attacks and being condescending are really unnecessary.

can I remind you that your very first post in this thread, a thread that was made for people who appreciate the iron born, hence the title included these sentences :

What? Are you crazy? The Ironborn are lying, scheming killers with no compassion and a lust for bloodshed.

and:

Do you really like Theon? That's got to be sarcasm. Theon is a butchering villain

so what... you're only against personal condescending attacks when they're directed at you? classy!

[Lord Reaver]

You're making a lot of assumptions about me/my positions. And it is never okay to talk down to people, even if they have bad ideas. Fight what you think are my bad ideas with your good ideas if you want to, but personal attacks and being condescending are really unnecessary.

I don't have to make assumptions. You have made your position on the Greyjoys and Ironborn pretty clear with your posts here.

There is no personal attack there, I said nothing about you as a person, my reference was solely to your stated opinion on the matter at hand. And I gave you "good" ideas.

You're right that it isn't necessarily fair to judge a whole society based on 10 people or so, but there is more knowledge about the IB than from just those 10 people. You get a pretty good insight into how the IB work, do you not? There are things to be desired, sure, but the Old Way is repeated time and time again in the novels and it is basically what the IB try to live up to. The Old Ways are brutal and cold and callous and involve a lot of killing and stealing etc and I am against that.

First of all, the Old Ways are just that, Old. There's a reason balon is fighting to bring them back, not to keep them going strong. Secondly, yeah they're brutal, much like the rest of Westeros is. Tywin's treatment of the Castameres - brutal. The Starks crushing the Skagosi and the Boltons, not to mention the Boltons themselves - brutal. The war of 5k - again, brutal. Yet somehow the Ironborn are "evil", and not the greenlanders ?

I agree that the greenlanders are not much better than the IB. They do do basically the same stuff. But that's not a saving grace for the IB. Judge Hitler based on what Stalin did, and you can say that Hitler wasn't that bad - but I am judging what Hitler (the IB) did on what Hitler (the IB) did. I'm not defending greenlanders or anybody else, I am rather just attacking the Ironborn.

Urgh. Godwin's law already. Look, if your problem is with everyone in GRRM's world, might I suggest not reading the bloody thing, or at least making your own thread about how terrible everyone are in his world ?

By coming to this particular thread, which is expressly on APPRECIATING the Greyjoys, and spewing your hate on them in particular, you ARE singling them out. Again, this shouldn't be too hard to understand.

[INCBlackbird]

Sorry for double-posting; I don't know how to break down a big quote into smaller little pieces to respond to without wiping out all my previous content.

Be careful - you're extrapolating the idea that Theon was treated indifferently/poorly by the Starks THROUGH his POV. Every narrator is biased, keep that in mind when you are reading. Theon is highborn, and just by being alive he already can live a way way better life than most people in this feudal society. Theon gets it good relative to all the peasants and lowborn people in the book. That aside, he still may have not been treated well by the Starks, disregarding possible bias/self-fulfilling prophecy by not liking them from day 1. But that is not justification for him later acting so cruel towards them or towards people in general. I know he has reasons for acting the way he did and he has reasons for his betrayal - but reasons alone do not justify cruelty. A lot of evil people have had reasons for doing what they did, but it's not a saving grace. He did what he did. I am sure I would have wanted approval and acceptance too - I am not blaming Theon for wanting that, everybody does - but just because you want acceptance doesn't mean you have to do evil things as a result.

He may indeed have changed. I hope he has. But this is all speculation, he may or may not have changed. I'm thinking that Stannis is dead and probably Theon too anyway.

Robb and Theon are not the same, they are not a monolith. When did Robb kill innocents? I don't recall any time where his army killed innocent people. I am not going to get into dynamics about whether or not Robb is moral or not - he may or may not be - but I don't think anything he did is comparable to what Theon did. If there was collateral damage/pillaging of things by the Starks then I don't think any of that happened in the hands of Robb's personal army or by his personal orders. Whether Robb is bad or good is irrelevant though, I just think Theon is a terrible person.

I'm gonna reply to both posts on here :

“By this point in the book, Theon had killed Mikken and the priest and the other innocents and he'd taken out anybody who opposed him and he'd held hostage all the important people and caused general destruction and treachery and was pretty much a full-blooded badguy.” I do not get this statement because by that definition every character in asoiaf who is not a child or part of the smallfolk is a badguy. Most of them with more innocent blood on their hands then Theon…

“I don't see any reason why he wouldn't have killed Beth, is there any good reason you can think of?” what about this quote from Theon himself when thinking about whether or not he should kill her :

“If I hang the girl, the northmen will attack at once, he thought as he loosed a shaft. If I do not hang her, they will know my threats are empty. He knocked another arrow to his bow. There is no way out, none.” Seems to me like Theon knows he has no way out either way, and Theon doesn’t do atrocities when he doesn’t think they’re absolutely needed, in fact, when he thinks they’re absolutely needed and orders them to happen he feels so guilty he can’t sleep from all the guilt nightmares… I don’t see Ned displaying any guilt over what he did to Theon… (not that I think he liked it, but he defenitly lacks guilt over a lot of things, always believes he’s justified in what he does)

“Theon wasn't in exactly the same position as Beth - he was raised as family and well-treated and highborn and never in danger of being harmed.” No, actually he was in the exact same position as Beth, only he was in it for 10 years instead of 1 day… he was not raised as family at all, he was not badly treated but not well treated either, as per GRRM he was given the standard high born hostage treatment (and has no reason to be grateful to the starks for that or to be loyal to them), what do you mean with “never in danger of being harmed”? again I must ask you if we read the same book because in mine Theon was a hostage under threat of death.

“My only purpose is to argue that Theon is pretty much a cold-blooded villain.” But clearly that’s an assumption you make based on your own bias, and not on the book for sure because that’s a direct contradiction of what we get to read in the books.

“If it weren't for Theon, Ramsay would have been unlikely to attack Winterfell, or take it supposing that he had. Ramsay is even worse than Theon, but Theon enabled this all to happen.” You cannot blame someone for what someone else did… that’s ridiculous. If you do this I could also say that if it weren’t for Robb, who let Theon go home (while he should have listened to his mother!), Theon wouldn’t have taken winterfell. Or how about this one : if Rodrick cassel hadn’t taken ramsay prisoner (and executed the wrong person) he wouldn’t have been there when Theon was there. See how easy it is? Only people who are strongly biased do this! People are only responsible for their own deeds not those of others! and for the record, I’m pretty sure that if Theon hadn’t taken winterfell, Roose would have found some other way to kill take robb’s place. It was convenient for them yes, they abused Theon in their plan, and till this day he is still their scapegoat, to blame that on Theon is victim blaming.

“The bottom line, though, is that he did kill innocents, people he grew up with, oppressed the survivors, and consequently enabled the ruin of Winterfell/the North. That's never right, and people who do that shouldn't be role models.” Yep and so did Stannis, Robb, Daenerys, Ned, Robert, Renly, Tywin… but I suppose it only counts when it’s done to the North right?

“He does think he is better than everyone - as soon as he gets to Pyke, he is already brooding about how he is the most qualified to sit the Seastone chair and how he might have to betray his uncles/Asha/whoever else.” I would like you to provide me a quote where he thinks (and more importantly believes!) he’s better then everyone… he wants to sit on the seastone chair because that’s his right, he payed for it with 10 years of his life, and even without that he was Balon’s last living son so he was his heir… and in the same

paragraph you agree that he’s insecure… how can one be arrogant and insecure at the same time, I ask you? His arrogant display is a mask to hide his insecureties behind, so are the constant lies he tells himself, it doesn’t take a genius to figure that out…

“Be careful - you're extrapolating the idea that Theon was treated indifferently/poorly by the Starks THROUGH his POV.” Why do you think that? do I specify somewhere that I base this soley on Theon’s pov ? cause I don’t… it’s based on Theons pov (and the context in which he thinks/says certain things) in combination with : Ned’s only mention of Theon ever being about using him as a political tool by threathening his father, besides that he never even thinks about him (pretty telling if you ask me) maester lewin’s comment about Theon needing to be “gentled” because he was iron born (seems pretty prejudiced to me!), the stark children who have pov’s either being indifferent or disliking Theon, also bran openly disrespect Theon at some point. And to top it all off Robb getting pissed off when his relationship with Theon is questioned (meaning that he’s had said conversation many many times and is sick of it.) also because Cat is talking about Balon and Robb emmediatly thinks her judgement extends to Theon, why do people do this? That’s right, when they’ve had that same person telling them something multiple times so you assume they’re telling it to you again in different words. Oh and may I remind you that Theon’s friendship with Patrick Mallister failed because his father told him he shouldn’t be friends with a Greyjoy?

“But that is not justification for him later acting so cruel towards them or towards people in general.” But he didn’t act “cruel” towards them, where do you get that from? From Theon taking winterfell with the least deaths possible?

“he has reasons for his betrayal” there is no betrayal, captives don’t owe their captors anything. do you think that a kidnapped child owes their captors when they don’t hurt them (which the starks by the way did do, he got several thrashings)

“He may indeed have changed. I hope he has. But this is all speculation” it’s not speculation if you’ve read his chapters.

May I remind you of this : “the Young Wolf was paying the Lannisters back in kind for the devastation they’d inflicted on the riverlands.” Robb ordered his men to forage, the westerlands as retribution for what tywin did in the riverlands (because, god knows, those innocent people who happened to live on the other side of the border were responsible for tywin’s atrocities) which means he ordered the death of innocent people, well aware that rape would occur as well. compare that to Theon, who took Winterfell with the least deaths possible and punished his men for raping a girl, and in general doing his best to be good to the people of winterfell (not that he should expect them to be greatfull for it, like he does) if you think Theon is a terrible person for killing innocent people, then why do you think Robb isn’t a terrible person and should have won (or done better, don’t know which one it is, but certainly one of them considering your first post)

For the record I really love Robb Stark, and I do not think he is a bad person for what he did either, they were at war (just like Theon) and horrible things happen in war. But you can’t simply chose to blame 1 for it and not the other…

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

IT really should go w/o saying for the "APPRECIATION" threads that they should stay a place for positive talk on that topic. I see a Stowmlands one just got made, and there's been one for Dorne awhile now. I don't especially care for Dorne, so I leave it be. What I'm not going to do is go into an APPRECIATION thread and start shit talking, getting everyone off the topic of appreciation b/c I can read a room and because that's just rude and trollish.

There's also something to be said for stereotyping a whole culture of people. My reasons for liking the Ironborn have been detailed extensively in my posts, yet I've consistently got to contend w/ the "let's eradicate every last evil thieving IB and make a new island of their skulls genocidal crowd." I don't go around saying all the Dornish are dark skinned perverted goat fuckers or all the Westermen are pink little men who think their gold and their lions and their gold lions make them better than everyone and therefor we should round them all up for extermination. That's a more disturbing mindset to me and anything the IB are accused of.

The Ironborn are always underdogs and I always root for the underdog.

[Narvi]

Coming from Norway how could I not love the iron born.

[The Imperator]

IT really should go w/o saying for the "APPRECIATION" threads that they should stay a place for positive talk on that topic. I see a Stowmlands one just got made, and there's been one for Dorne awhile now. I don't especially care for Dorne, so I leave it be. What I'm not going to do is go into an APPRECIATION thread and start shit talking, getting everyone off the topic of appreciation b/c I can read a room and because that's just rude and trollish.

There's also something to be said for stereotyping a whole culture of people. My reasons for liking the Ironborn have been detailed extensively in my posts, yet I've consistently got to contend w/ the "let's eradicate every last evil thieving IB and make a new island of their skulls genocidal crowd." I don't go around saying all the Dornish are dark skinned perverted goat fuckers or all the Westermen are pink little men who think their gold and their lions and their gold lions make them better than everyone and therefor we should round them all up for extermination. That's a more disturbing mindset to me and anything the IB are accused of.

The Ironborn are always underdogs and I always root for the underdog.

Well said.

And it's annoying that this was turned into some debate thread on the Ironborn.

[INCBlackbird]

Well said.

And it's annoying that this was turned into some debate thread on the Ironborn.

I think the troll may have left now (crossing my fingers) so we can go back to the original point of the thread.

I love house Greyjoy not only because the characters are great and the politics as well as religion are interesting but also because I like how it's about the old conservative generation vs the young progressive generation.

[The Drowned Prophet]

I just love the Kingsmoot story, and especially the event itself. Loved the four Greyjoy's involved (Asha, Vic, Euron and Aeron) ever since.

The Iron Captain and The Drowned Man in AFFC are two of my favourite chapters.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Dagon Greyjoy seems to have been the biggest badass in the family. He kicked Stark and Lannister ass. Dalton Greyjoy was probably a badass too.

I mostly want to learn about the pre-Conquest Ironborn when World of Ice and Fire comes out (and whether Bear Island was truly lost in a wrestling match), but hopefully we get more info on these Greyjoys as well

[Ser RoddyRuinuous]

Not to hijack the thread, but Rodrik the Reader=the only ironborn I want to talk about. All must bend beneath the scythe.

[WinterKraken]

The Greyjoy's have many good character's.

Euron and Victarion are badass,and Aeron is quite interesting.

Asha is fun too and Balon was ok,i didn't like him very much.

Theon is clearly a dick,i can't understand how could someone like Theon.

[Dead Wolf]

Those ballsy bastards sure are fun to read about even if I only like Theon and Asha

[nastydream]

The only cool ironborns are Asha and DWD theon

[Game Of Thrones]

Good lord. There are quite a lot of you. I definitely agree with you guys that their chapters are never dull and they are "cool", sure. But there really aren't many chapters that ARE dull in the book, and the Greyjoys are simply not people you would like in real life. Perhaps you guys are not judging them by real-life standards, and if that is the case, sure, I can why you would like them. But at least during the sack of Winterfell by Theon, your blood should have been curdling in its veins. You should have been sick to your stomachs about the malice and treachery of Theon. He certainly hasn't redeemed himself yet. Maybe he can do something saintlike and regain some dignity but I will never "like" him.

Ramsay sacked WF not Theon.

[INCBlackbird]

Theon is clearly a dick,i can't understand how could someone like Theon.

maybe because he's badass, smart and an actual good person. he acts like a dick, yes, but that's all it is, an act. he is actually deeply insecure. he is the most human and realistic character in those books in my opinion, defenitly the most relateable! and on top of that he's the best written and interesting character, again, in my opinion. why is it so uncomprehensible that people like him ?

[Game Of Thrones]

maybe because he's badass, smart and an actual good person. he acts like a dick, yes, but that's all it is, an act. he is actually deeply insecure. he is the most human and realistic character in those books in my opinion, defenitly the most relateable! and on top of that he's the best written and interesting character, again, in my opinion. why is it so uncomprehensible that people like him ?

Haters gonna hate.

[The Drowned Prophet]

The fact that Theon is such a divisive character is proof of how realistic and complex a character GRRM has created.

[Game Of Thrones]

The fact that Theon is such a divisive character is proof of how realistic and complex a character GRRM has created.

Same with Dany and Stannis.

[The Imperator]

I think the troll may have left now (crossing my fingers) so we can go back to the original point of the thread.

I love house Greyjoy not only because the characters are great and the politics as well as religion are interesting but also because I like how it's about the old conservative generation vs the young progressive generation.

I like the Ironborn religion because of how Lovecraftian it is. There is definitely some influence there.

In fact, I remember one forumite here posting a topic saying that the god that the Ironborn worship is Cthulhu (or Dagon). I think that would be an interesting twist, if it were revealed that A Song of Ice and Fire is in a shared universe with the Cthulhu Mythos.

[The Imperator]

Those ballsy bastards sure are fun to read about even if I only like Theon and Asha

How can you not like Victarion?

He's the Ash Ketchum of gods in this series!