Examining ADWD: Epilogue and Ser Kevan's assumed death

[Elessar]

It's only been 2 hundred years, they can live much longer.

[Deep Like Davos]

And mine was a question. Silver wing was the 3rd surviving dragon correct?

[Edmure's Floppy Fish]

It's only been 2 hundred years, they can live much longer.

The dragons were fully grown during the dance and that was over 170 years ago. IF they were alive, someone would have seen them. I doubt GRRM would write in two dragons that haven't been mentioned once in the ASOIAF series.

[The Fourth Head]

well I have learned one valuable lesson- not to share thoughts on this forum.

Disgraceful.

[Bonifer Tasty]

well I have learned one valuable lesson- not to share thoughts on this forum.

Disgraceful.

Don't let them get to you!

I really enjoyed the ideas, and it has caused met to reevaluate some assumptions I made. There are always snarks and trolls, it's hard trying not to feed them...

The name-calling should probably get posters banned, regardless of the merits of what they say. Not civil. Besides, calling you a moron did not make anyone else think you were a moron, it only made people think the name-caller had no credibility.

[Elessar]

I'm a little saddened that no one responded to my Fred Hoyle reference...

[Deep Like Davos]

Zero. Zilch. Complete lack of credibility.

Credibility in what? I'm not sure. But I have none.

[Deep Like Davos]

The dragons were fully grown during the dance and that was over 170 years ago. IF they were alive, someone would have seen them. I doubt GRRM would write in two dragons that haven't been mentioned once in the ASOIAF series.

Where does it say they are fully grown? Actually, how do we know when a dragon is fully grown? I thought the text tells us that as long as they have food and space they will continue to grow.

[theDao]

Wow, theres so many things wrong with this post even within the strictures you yourself set for it; Lets just put aside for a minute the whole concept that you think Varys is above kinda lying to a dying man, so therefore Aegon must be real and or there must have been a different motivation for Varys revealing Aegon. (absurd)

Lets start with the very simple notion that literally no living man (in universe or out) knew that Bloodraven was alive still until Bran reached the cave. So firstly Varys is apparently omnipotent unless you have a suggestion for how hes aware of BR's existence.

Then apparently while he's somehow aware that the unknown BR is listening (through what means exactly btw? he's warging one of the children?) He purposely drops the Aegon line which BR would somehow know was a reference to a secret Blackfyre and in doing this he is "rubbing BR's nose in it" how exactly? How would this even effect BR, never mind upset him?

Overall nonsensical post and a clear misunderstanding of the correct usage of the word rhetoric evidently

I was responding to OP, elaborating on the quoted part number 5 of the OP. If you would read the OP, or at the very least the part I quoted, you would know there was a raven there, and there would thus be no need to wrag into one of the children. Also, OP assumes the knowledge of BR already, and I continued from there, so any questions related to that should be directed at the part I quoted. Once you re-read my post and the quoted part, if you still have comments, please reply and I will gladly admit to any nonsensical comments I made upon recognizing them.

EDIT: During my, as of yet, uncompleted studies, I did participate in an "introduction to rhetoric" course from the philosophy department at my university. We have discussed Definitions of it ranging from as early as Plato and Aristotle and some roman thinkers like Cicero, through christian priests in the middle ages arguing that use of rhetoric and even blatant lies is acceptable when trying to bring souls to the right faith, all the way up to Nietzsche's early works, and concluded the course with modern definitions and how rhetoric is used and defined today. I would like to believe that if nothing else came out of that course, at the very least my grasp of the word rhetoric and it's definition is quite suitable for this discussion.

[Elessar]

It's the part where it mentions "the" dragons. You are meant to think there is something more to them, that they're fully grown. Duh, man. It's "the" dragons!

[Edmure's Floppy Fish]

It's the part where it mentions "the" dragons. You are meant to think there is something more to them, that they're fully grown. Duh, man. It's "the" dragons!

It's the part where they are trying to find someone to ride them. C'mon on man, you have to be a better troll than this. These responses are just lazy!

[Deep Like Davos]

It's the part where they are trying to find someone to ride them. C'mon on man, you have to be a better troll than this. These responses are just lazy!

I'm not trolling. I actually have asked 3 questions in a row without answer. And if u look at my previous posts in this thread I have been actually trying to understand, ask questions and when inaccurate correct errors

[Edmure's Floppy Fish]

I'm not trolling. I actually have asked 3 questions in a row without answer. And if u look at my previous posts in this thread I have been actually trying to understand, ask questions and when inaccurate correct errors

I quoted your last comment and there was only condescending sarcasm in it. It's Friday night and this flopping fish is going to get into something. I am not going to spend it sticking up for the guy that wrote the OP. Especially when he refuses to defend himself. Until next time gents!

[Baelor Blacktyde]

In My Humble Opinion the theories presented in the original posts in this thread are too far-fetched. My explanations for Varys' long monologue to Ser Kevan are:

1) The author wanted to inform the readers of Varys' role in the Game of Thrones.

2) To justify it "in story", without it being another pointless monologue, my explanation would be that Varys regrets some of the murders he needs to commit to accomplish his plan, and has enough respect for Kevan Lannister that he wants Kevan Lannister to understand why Varys is killing him. "Ser Kevan, I know I'm being a jerk, but I have good reasons, and if it's any consolation to you, we will have an honorable new ruler once all this is over. Someone who is a legitimate ruler, and someone who will rule wisely."

[Deep Like Davos]

I quoted your last comment and there was only condescending sarcasm in it. It's Friday night and this flopping fish is going to get into something. I am not going to spend it sticking up for the guy that wrote the OP. Especially when he refuses to defend himself. Until next time gents!

You quoted someone' else's last comment. Not mine. Still haven't answered a single of my questions. But go. Your work here is obviously done

[Edmure's Floppy Fish]

You quoted someone' else's last comment. Not mine. Still haven't answered a single of my questions. But go. Your work here is obviously done

What question did you ask me?!?

About being fully grown? I meant they were obviously grown enough to have riders so they weren't hatchlings. That is in TPATQ when they are recruiting people to ride them. What dragon do we know to live 200+ years? I know it says it in the wiki but do we have a specific case of one living that long? It may be in there, I just can't recall it.

[Deep Like Davos]

Where it actually says that all the remaining dragons were fully grown. How you know they stop growing.

My understanding is they will keep growing as long as they have space and food. The fact the biggest dragons have been the oldest seems to suggest that if sheep stealer survived it could have eventually grown to balerion/vhagar size.

[Deep Like Davos]

And it sounds like all the biggest died in battle. Not from old age

I believe Vhagar was 180 or so when she crashed into the gods eye. With no enemy to fight who knows how much longer she would have lived

[theDao]

I think that Varys' speech was directed at Bloodraven, but with different intentions than the ones mentioned above. He was not convincing Bloodraven of anything, but rather taunting him. Varys' goal of putting Aegon on the throne is very close to completion, after years and years of planning. So close, in fact, that he is ready to reveal himself and enjoy a little bit of rubbing Bloodraven's nose in it. His goal here is to demonstrate the rhetoric with which Aegon would be introduced, using this room as the stage with Kevan as the audience, and show Bloodraven that with this rhetoric, a Blackfyre would be placed on the throne and the Blackfyres would finally achieve victory.

Will try to elaborate on my post, explain how the word "rhetoric" is fitting, and how exactly Bloodraven's nose is being rubbed in it.

1) Varys is giving a speech, which is already fitting for the definition of the word rhetoric to some extent. Also, the speech puts big emphasis on certain aspects and tries to convince of something. Varys, as OP states, is very careful of his wording and the direction to which he takes this speech - he talks about how dutiful Aegon would be, instead of the ancestry matter that would be more important to Bloodraven, according to OP's speculation. Already we have perfect fit for the definition of rhetoric just from this point alone.

2) You cannot hope to convince somebody of something, using fancy speech, if they know the facts just as well, if not better than you. OP states himself that convincing Bloodraven of something would be pointless because of that, and so the speech, in his view cannot be an attempt to convince Bloodraven of anything. OP thinks, and I agree, that the speech is not aimed at convincing Bloodraven of anything stated in the speech.

3) The speech is directed at Kevan, or, the ruling class of Westeros. Varys demonstrates that this rhetoric is so powerful that he could convince a person that his own murder was just. Of course Kevan is not the real audience, and I hardly believe any person, after any speech, would say to himself - hmm, perhaps I should die here. Varys is simply showing how the world would easily forget and wash off even the stain of Kevan's murder from Aegon's rule, how, through careful planning and manipulation of the events, his plan of placing a Blackfyre on the throne is finally coming to fruition and with this rhetroic of the dutiful Aegon the plan would be unstoppable. But the real audience cannot be Kevan himself, as OP claims, because he is about to die.

4) Think of it as a speech, given to an audience in a movie, and you are the second audience, that is watching the movie, watching the speaker, and the audience, from above. Kevan merely serves as a demonstration. Bloodraven is the real audience of director (slash actor) Varys, but not the audience that listens and is convinced by the speech which is supposed to be Kevan. Knowing all the facts behind the events and the speech - perhaps even better than Varys himself, Bloodraven is the audience of a carefully directed movie, in which Varys is giving a speech to some audience, and Bloodraven would be convinced, but not of the legitimacy or suitability of Aegon, but of the fact that Varys has won, or will win with this rhetoric.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

well I have learned one valuable lesson- not to share thoughts on this forum.

Disgraceful.

Everybody is welcomed to start new theories. The only thing that is asked is to have something to back them up. Strong evidence.

Strong evidence doesn't mean that because character X says A, and then, character Y says A too, X and Y are the same. Unless, of course, that A is something very very specific.