Examining ADWD: Epilogue and Ser Kevan's assumed death

[horizon]

Why the daggers and not a crossbow to finish it of? That way Varys does not have to lie if someone asks if he killed him. iirc Varys killed no one, and he did not kill Kevan now.

And why 6 childeren there? To make it a quick stabbing. To not let suffer Kevan to much (not as longer as needed). 1 kid with 1 dagger might hesistate or just not be quick enough.

Kevan won't be resurrected. Nope. Pycelle neither.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Why the daggers and not a crossbow to finish it of? That way Varys does not have to lie if someone asks if he killed him. iirc Varys killed no one, and he did not kill Kevan now.

What's with this ever-present fixation on "technically not lying"? Varys is a ruthless, cold-blooded SOB. Why on Earth would he give a fuck? It's not "Dune", he isn't going to face the Emperor's Truthsayer. If there's some kind of a cosmic, supernatural punishment that smites outright liars, but spares liars who carefully chose their words, it has yet to be introduced into the series.

If a dude if capable of a premeditated murder, it's a very safe bet that he won't shy away from lying. Or jaywalking. Or yawning publicly without covering his mouth.

[The Fourth Head]

then the quarrel was irrelevant, yet Varys was making it out to be really poignant. Now Ser Kevan will die from dagger wounds, not quarrel wounds.

Varys made a big song and dance pointing out the connection, only to fail to finish the job. If it was to ensure clean hands, couldn't he have had a child shoot the crossbow? or have 6 children with 6 crossbows? No - we get "the daggers" which spoils any Tywin symbolism.

Speed makes no sense either - one dagger, or quarrel, to the heart is no slower than any other death. Indeed, Varys takes his sweet time the entire scene and had been suffering for ages. Quarrel-to-face should have followed very shortly after the first hit if suffering were his genuine concern.

A straight reading portrays him with great inconsistency, both in emotion and deed, and doesn't ring true with the way this death seemed so premeditated and carefully designed. As I say, we have another in-universe example of 6 people rushing in from the shadows to stab a freezing cold, fallen person to death. None of us really knows what that was about or what their agenda was, but the result was this person rose again.

I agree shared blame / culpability / responsibility has a lot to do with it, but the same could apply to GOT Prologue, otherwise, why didn't the other just finish Royce off himself instead of signalling to 6 "watchers" to rush in? In ADWD Epilogue, you could call the Children watchers too because they knew exactly what was happening and what their role was, and were lurking out of sight until summoned by sound.

[Deep Like Davos]

Heres another issue i have with a face-value reading of the chapter.

It would have been much more fitting for Varys to do as Tyrion did, and fire a final quarrel to finish Ser Kevan off.

Ser Kevan and Tywin would have shared the same deaths as a result.

If this murder was all for Varys' cathartic pleasure, why have Ser Kevan stabbed to death with 6 daggers by 6 children? How is that fitting of anything?

Tywin was not stabbed to death with 6 daggers by 6 children, so they will not, now, share the same deaths. The quarrel therefore, is not serving any real symbolic purpose and as Varys knew full well he had 6 children concealed holding 6 daggers, it was never planned to be the cause of Ser Kevan's death, not that Ser Kevan could know that. Therefore, for the children's benefit at the very least, when he says:

"you shared so much with your brother, why not that?"

stating explicitly "the same death" would have been a flagrant public lie.

I'm sure Ser Kevan and we all expected him to fire another quarrel. He didn't- and nor had he planned on doing, so we have to ask ourselves what purpose the quarrel shot served if it wasn't to kill him and why mislead Ser Kevan into believing it was a major symbolic act when all it succeeded in doing was incapacitating him and forcing him to listen? This is muddy logic on Varys part. He cannot have intended killing Ser Kevan by quarrel, only to change his mind when he realised he hadn't quite finished the job because he wouldn't have concealed so many children around the room in advance. So death by quarrel was never his plan.

This is why I maintain that it was all an act for Ser Kevan's benefit. By pointing out Pycelle's brutalised body, and pointing out the quarrel connection to Tywins' death, Varys managed to incapacitate Ser Kevan and then chat to him about Aegon without Ser Kevan suspecting this was a recruitment speech. Convinced Varys was a cold blooded killer, and not toying with him for manipulation purposes before leaving him alive, he could then take the Aegon speech in confidance and not regard it as a piece of propaganda. Of course, Varys always intended to finish Ser Kevan off, but without Pycelle, or the quarrel link to Tywin, Ser Kevan could have begun to question whether Varys had the stomach to finish him, having half done the job before rambling on about Aegon. In that situation, the power of the "taken into confidence" effect would have been considerably reduced and Ser Kevan would have been less inclined to believe Varys.

Added to this act was the deepening of the voice when it came to his "plug Aegon in 60 seconds" infodump. It's hardly for the reader's benefit as pantomime villain speech:

(deep voice) "HE KNOWS HOW TO MEND FISHING NETS" (mwa-hahaha!)

it's all, IMO a performance for Ser Kevan's benefit prior to an unnatural act which would render Ser Kevan's opinions relevant in future.

Here is another way to explain it though:

Varys picked his moment perfectly. Kevan has just come from dinner with Cersei and Tommen and wasn't wearing his swordbelt because of it. He also obviously wasn't wearing any kind of armor. Ser Kevan is martial though, in a way Varys never was. Even with no sword if Varys' first shot only took him in the shoulder or something Kevan could have over powered Varys before a 2nd shot could be gotten off. But, Kevan being unarmed and unarmored 6 children with daggers offer Varys all the protection he needs. Think of them has his sworn shields.

When Kevan and Pycelle are found the quarrels will be noticed. Whether Kevan died because of the stabs or the quarrels won't matter. It will be still tied to Tyrion. I bet someone notes that by the look of them they must have come from someone Tyrions size (the children are 9/10ish, about the same height Tyrion would be based on other descriptions).

Also of note is the last conversation Pycelle and Kevan have before this. Pycelle and Ser Harys both ask for guards. Pycelle says its because Mace Tyrell loves him not. Kevan and Pycelle are both dead, but not Ser Harys. I'm sure that conversation will be brought up to the new head of house Lannister.

[The Fourth Head]

i don't think the Lord Regent wears armour when performing administrative duties, writing letters, attending Grand Council meetings or visiting the Grand Maester. I could be wrong, but i was under the impression it was courtly attire like tunics and doublets?

Never the less, having the Children as a precaution seems sensible. So, once the danger was averted and Ser Kevan was prostrate on the ground, what was stopping Varys from pointing out the symbolism of the quarrel, and then...finishing him off with the poignant second quarrel? Nothing. Ser Kevan was no longer a threat.

Varys' plan involves bringing down the alliance. Pycelle's death would implicate Mace as Pycelle has to testify about the moon tea, so that could lead nicely to the Tyrells. I fail to see how implicating Tyrion would serve his agenda. If anything the quarrel will serve as a distraction for Cercei. She can accuse the Tyrells of working together with Tyrion on both Ser Kevan and Tywins' murders, but where's the evidence of collusion? Without Tyrion, she wont get anywhere with that.

[Deep Like Davos]

i don't think the Lord Regent wears armour when performing administrative duties, writing letters, attending Grand Council meetings or visiting the Grand Maester. I could be wrong, but i was under the impression it was courtly attire like tunics and doublets?

Never the less, having the Children as a precaution seems sensible. So, once the danger was averted and Ser Kevan was prostrate on the ground, what was stopping Varys from pointing out the symbolism of the quarrel, and then...finishing him off with the poignant second quarrel? Nothing. Ser Kevan was no longer a threat.

Varys' plan involves bringing down the alliance. Pycelle's death would implicate Mace as Pycelle has to testify about the moon tea, so that could lead nicely to the Tyrells. I fail to see how implicating Tyrion would serve his agenda. If anything the quarrel will serve as a distraction for Cercei. She can accuse the Tyrells of working together with Tyrion on both Ser Kevan and Tywins' murders, but where's the evidence of collusion? Without Tyrion, she wont get anywhere with that.

Yet you fail to note he normally carries a sword, but this night he did not and GRRM made sure we knew that. I was just pointing out he also happened to not be armored.

Its been said several times already, but the daggers make a quicker end. He is already dying from the first bolt. a 2nd doesn't guarantee a quicker death.

When Kevan saw the bolt in Pycelle he immediately thinks of Tyrion. So, yes, i think the Tyrion connection will be there for everyone else to see as well.

[The Fourth Head]

Yet you fail to note he normally carries a sword, but this night he did not and GRRM made sure we knew that. I was just pointing out he also happened to not be armored.

Its been said several times already, but the daggers make a quicker end. He is already dying from the first bolt. a 2nd doesn't guarantee a quicker death.

When Kevan saw the bolt in Pycelle he immediately thinks of Tyrion. So, yes, i think the Tyrion connection will be there for everyone else to see as well.

As I say, i'm not discounting their presence there doubling up as a precaution - but clearly in Ser Kevan's mind, Varys would be perfectly aware that he believed Varys was his brothers' killer, Varys would be his killer, and both would share the same death - death by quarrel. Varys says he thought it fitting...until he has him stabbed to death by children instead. So all that was baloney. Varys wont have killed either of them, and both will have died by different means, yet that wasn't the impression Varys was giving, and he knew it.

It's very misleading and inconsistent.

as ive already addressed, a crossbow bolt to the heart is faster than 6 children clamboring out from under furniture. death by daggers is not faster. Varys was physically closest and could have shot Ser Kevan, or stabbed him easily himself if he doubted his aim. Now 6 children are slowly emerging one by one. that has nothing to do with speed.

"Varys fitted another quarrel to his crossbow...and now, lets make an end to it" Ser Kevan heard a whoosh- then nothing".

instead we get a group slowly emerging with daggers one by one. that is not faster. for the last few minutes, Ser Kevan has been bleeding from the mouth, and Varys has been prattling away. this has nothing to do with speed. further, stabbing is a personal, traumatic experience in a way a crossbow bolt isn't. this doesn't sound more humane and it doesn't sound faster, and even if you disagree, we are talking about tiny fractions of a second which hardly justifies a u-turn in his grand fitting death-by-quarrel rationale, or a change from prattling away to sudden haste.

Ser Kevan thinks of Tywin, suspects Tyrion, and when Varys reveals himself, would have changed his view to believing Varys was the killer. Pycelle's head was bust open- no quarrel.

of course in Varys absence people will see a quarrel and think of Tyrion, but how does that serve Varys exactly? Tyrion is not part of the alliance. Cersei blaming him seems pointless- racking another crime to her absent brother gets Aegon no closer to the throne, and that wasn't the reason Varys gave - he thought the crossbow fitting. that clearly puts Kevan under the impression that it was a suitable means of killing him, and not designed wholly to frame Tyrion. Indeed, Varys allows for both the Tyrells and Tyrion being suspected which just seems convoluted to me. Why not just frame the Tyrell's?

[Deep Like Davos]

what are you talking about? Reread the chapter. Ser Kevan never thinks of Tyrion. He thinks of Tywin. By extension, he must now associate Varys as the perpetrator of his brother's death. Pycelle's head was bust open- no quarrel.

of course in Varys absence people will see a quarrel and think of Tyrion, but how does that serve Varys exactly?

I hate arguing over things you can check yourself just by opening the book:

He wanted guards, Ser Kevan thought. I should have sent him guards. Could Cersei have been right all along? Was this his nephew’s work? “Tyrion?” he called. “Where … ?”

[Deep Like Davos]

"Varys fitted another quarrel to his crossbow...and now, lets make an end to it" Ser Kevan heard a whoosh- then nothing".

That never happens either. When Varys starts talking to Kevan he puts the crossbow down and never picks it back up.

Edit: just realized you were saying what could have happened instead. so nevermind on this one

[The Fourth Head]

(NOTE- i edited my previous post as i spotted my mistake before reading your post, not to cover it up)

Yes-he thinks of tyrion- until he sees Varys, but as i say, what purpose does framing tyrion and not the tyrell's serve? none i can imagine, and what on earth does that have to do with slowly emerging children and a brutal, and highly personal up close death-by-daggers?

further- why would he put ser kevan under the false impression that Varys killed Tywin, not tyrion, fail to clarify, and pretend to Ser Kevan that it was "fitting"? "fitting" implies an appropriate death, not false framing, and if he was simply lying....why not keep it simple, and finish the job with a quarrel if framing was his goal? tywin wasn't stabbed, and the closer the death, the stronger the association.

the issue i have here is the pretence a quarrel was appropriate, the misleading impression that Varys was Tywins killer and the switcheroo to death by Dagger.

i note the angle-argument too. how could anyone tell a stabbing of a man of the floor was done by a dwarf or a grown man?

[Elessar]

Apparently this thread is Ironborn.

[Deep Like Davos]

(NOTE- i edited my previous post as i spotted my mistake before reading your post, not to cover it up)

Yes-he thinks of tyrion- until he sees Varys, but as i say, what purpose does framing tyrion and not the tyrell's serve? none i can imagine, and what on earth does that have to do with slowly emerging children and a brutal, and highly personal up close death-by-daggers?

further- why would he put ser kevan under the false impression that Varys killed Tywin, not tyrion, fail to clarify, and pretend to Ser Kevan that it was "fitting"? "fitting" implies an appropriate death, not false framing, and if he was simply lying....why not keep it simple, and finish the job with a quarrel?

the issue i have here is the pretence a quarrel was appropriate, the misleading impression that Varys was Tywins killer and the switcheroo to death by Dagger.

i note the angle-argument too. how could anyone tell a stabbing of a man of the floor was done by a dwarf or a grown man?

Varys never says he killed Tywin, just that since one died by crossbow, why not the other. Really, i don't see Kevan making that connection during the chapter.

Kevan wasn't on the floor, he was sitting on the window seat. (the crossbow bolt hit him and that's where he ended up).

[The Fourth Head]

you're right the connection is not spelled out, but implied imo.

What ser kevan reveals is that he was never convinced tyrion did it, felt for a moment that maybe tyrion did kill his father after all, due to the similarity - a quarrel- then he sees Varys was his shooter- not tyrion- confounding expectation. Now Varys is the guy who has shot Ser Kevan under the same conditions as his brother with the same weapon, and same as tyrion, he disappeared then too. for Ser Kevan to make the connection with tyrion, and fail to make the same connection with Varys one his shooter is revealed is incongruous, though this detail isn't a significant one to my theory.

omission of proof leaves this detail a little open-ended.

Varys conducts himself in a way that implies that they should share the same death. He gives Ser Kevan a motive- to end the alliance which would explain tywin's death too from Varys pov. Ser Kevan as revealed...was never certain that tyrion would kill his father, and would have been more inclined now to suspect Varys.

At worst, he would die with continued confusion over who killed his brother. More likely, he would treat this as Varys deliberately implicating himself and not caring. to my mind this is Varys heavily implicating himself in order to convince Ser Kevan he's playing for keeps before having a chat.

You are right about Ser Kevan sat down- though i don't see what difference that makes? A child could stab a sat man wherever they liked- face, neck, upper chest. it doesn't frame tyrion any more, indeed, arguably less than a second quarrel shot.

further, you haven't explained what purpose framing tyrion and not the tyrells would serve, despite daggers not even implying framing.

[oursisthefury69]

Why the daggers and not a crossbow to finish it of? That way Varys does not have to lie if someone asks if he killed him. iirc Varys killed no one, and he did not kill Kevan now.

And why 6 childeren there? To make it a quick stabbing. To not let suffer Kevan to much (not as longer as needed). 1 kid with 1 dagger might hesistate or just not be quick enough.

Kevan won't be resurrected. Nope. Pycelle neither.

? Who exactly is going to be walking up on Varys asking him if he killed these people?

further, you haven't explained what purpose framing tyrion and not the tyrells would serve, despite daggers not even implying framing.

I dont think you've even explained what this thread is, you just keep bumping the thread and talkingcircles around your not a theory

[Deep Like Davos]

further, you haven't explained what purpose framing tyrion and not the tyrells would serve, despite daggers not even implying framing.

Varys literally tells us. Sowing discord among these two allies (Lannister and Tyrell).

Cersei, Ser Harys, Daven (whatever lannister you choose) will try to blame the Tyrells first. But who do you suppose the Tyrells can blame?

[WeaselPie]

Varys to Kevan:

Your niece will think the Tyrells had you murdered, mayhaps with the connivance of the Imp. The Tyrells will suspect her. Someone will find a way to blame the Dornishmen. Doubt, division and mistrust will eat the very ground beneath your boy king....

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

further, you haven't explained what purpose framing tyrion and not the tyrells would serve, despite daggers not even implying framing.

Varys isn't actually framing anyone. He leaves two corpses behind and lets everyone name their own suspect(s). Many daggers, many killers mean it was not a single person with a grudge, but someone with resources. A conspiracy. Was it Cersei? Was it Mace? Was it Tyrion? Nobody can be trusted. Which is the point of the assassinations.

[WeaselPie]

Varys isn't actually framing anyone.

Actually, he is framing everyone.

[horizon]

Aye ^

Varys wants all the accusations to happen. And if twow chapter is true Cersei will at one point be back in command. So Tyrell's out of KL = undefended KL ready for Aegon.

Perhaps George wants to tell us another thing.

In the book you get the alternative chapters:

Quentyn dies by heat (->fire)

next chapter:

Jon dies by daggers (cold -. ice)

Now Kevan dies by daggers. Also in a (somewhat) cold surrounding (snow in King's Landing).

[The Mother of The Others]

And this is when Ser Kevan is reanimated. When it serves his needs, and not before.

the memory could be glossed over by Varys so Ser Kevan only remembers the speech.

Beric was still repeatedly trying to carry out the same mission to bring the Lannisters and Gregor to heel, he seemed unable to adapt, to evolve, though circumstances didn't really enable him to do much else. The same seems to apply to Catelyn. She is the same person she was when she died and is locked into a mode of behaviour. This is why Varys, IMO, was trying to persuade Ser Kevan that Aegon's was a good cause before death, to make him a more compliant soul.

it also appears, from one interpretation that Pycelles' head was opened to extract something.

there's a brain-damage clock running on these corpses, though, remember, limiting how long they can be left on ice. Cat is suffering the effects of them not raising her for several days after she died. You can't wait too long to raise Kevvy if you still want him to be a warm zombie when he rises, and a warm one who can speak and issue commands to other members of house Lann is the only kind of Zombie Kevan that's of use politically in this scheme of yours---errrrrrr, Varys'.

re: memory being glossed over or buffed and shined as the resurrector desires: so you're thinking the last thoughts of the dying man (in Kevan's case, the speech he heard) are what could be turned into the ONLY driving purpose of his reanimated corpse. He'd awaken totally taken with the idea of Aegon, because that's the mental state in which his brain activity was forever frozen by death, just as Cat rose intent on hanging Freys forever and Dondarrion died and rose intent on doing right by King Robert. Okay, that's horror-correct and somewhat commonly encountered in the zombie universe. But that's a very very very specific bet you're laying down by forecasting Varys so minutely while having only like 1/3 of the info needed to really know what's in his mind; these 1000/1 bets have no chance of being what actually comes to pass, generally speaking, which is why people are hinting that you're wasting the internet's vast potential by over-zooming your binoculars on this epilogue. All we're really capable of doing by so narrowly analyzing the epilogue is we're amplifying the shadows in that room; there's no certainty that can be arrived at by doing so. The events that took place in those shadows, and the future most likely to spring from them, are still just as obscured from us as ever, despite how you've taken those shadows and built a pretty fractile equation portrait out of them. The truth remains veiled in shadow as before. So when you're observed making conclusions based on shifting the darkness around it invites silly posters to come and roost in the topic like those damn white ravens who perch on window sills to nay-say instead of quorking. "Nay" they say. And the raven is generally considered wise in this genre.

re: revenants: Beric and Cat are unchanging static creatures for a reason (the line bolded in the text above): Cat and Beric have no reason to "adapt" or change--circumstances justify them remaining just as they are. In fact circumstances demand they continue on, fighting their "irrelevant" battles. The revenant is defined by having ongoing unfinished business as its purpose. That's why these ghosts exist at all, so it's not a weakness (yet), because their causes are still things worth fighting for, wrongs to be righted. The king's men aren't irrelevant as long as they continue imposing their relevance on the world. Their very existence prooved that. Their will to fight on is what made them relevant, it's what gave Dondarrion the ability to haul himself up off the canvas time and again. Then he lost the fire inside to fight on, and that's when he consequently coughed up the spark that had animated him so a new leader could rise who still believed. Kevan is different. I don't believe that Kevan experienced anything that would justify him rising as a revenant. Nothing about the Aegon speech would in any way compel Kevan to have a burning hot purpose should he return from the grave. Kevan's death didn't involve having a just cause and seeing the world betray him in a gutwrenching way that's so foul it echoes into the afterlife and creates a ghost. Kevan knew the Lannisters were dips! He knew that fate has it in for bigtime players like the Lannisters and that's why people like him always need to stay ruthless and on guard. His death wasn't so much a great miscarraige of justice. It was more like, "Eh, this is about how I expected to go out." (On Person of Interest, they entertainingly had a character say, "Fair enough," in response to being shot in the head by his government co-worker after he'd bungled a major project. Kevan's death was more like that than anything that'd produce a revenant.)

re: Pycelles' busted head. Another example of head stomping from the pop culture--- Someone's head got stomped real good by the big daddy vampire on the television show THE STRAIN because the boss vamp didn't want that particular guy to rise as a vampire zombie the way all his normal bite victims do. But there's a more relevant reason for breaking his head than preventing the rise of zombie Pycelle:

Was presumably present somewhere in the Keep when Gregor smashed Aegon's head to bits of brain and blood

Saved his own ass by swearing to support the Lannisters and was pardoned, staying on as GM

His broken gourd is probably some kind of commentary on how he enabled the smashing of the Targ kids. so here's your karma returning to you Pycelle. that kind of thing

a performance for Ser Kevan's benefit prior to an unnatural act which would render Ser Kevan's opinions relevant in future.

in "the" future.

6 children with daggers offer Varys all the protection he needs. Think of them has his sworn shields.

When Kevan and Pycelle are found the quarrels will be noticed. It will be still tied to Tyrion. I bet someone notes that by the look of them they must have come from someone Tyrions size (the children are 9/10ish, about the same height Tyrion would be based on other descriptions). .

Yes. God yes. Say it harder! Now we're getting back to the long-ignored surface level explanation for why Kevan was killed. To mess with Cersei!!! His death wasn't about him, it was about her. It's not Kevan who's destined to be doing the zombie shuffle, it's Cersei who'll now be free to host her own Day of the Dead celebration for everyone else in KL (when she goes absofreakin nuts and kills Mace or whomever, winding down the story as a heavy-handed queen from hell. The reason he's "sorry" to be killing Kevan is because Cersei is more deserving of death based on her performance review, yet she is the one who must be allowed to live on, so it's a bit awk-warrrrrd. But Varys gets over it momentarily and moves on, and so should we, back onto the beaten path. The surface-level interpretation of Kevan's death goes somewhere just fine, while looking into the Aegon speech with such a fine-toothed comb feels like we've stopped by the side of the road to sit on the grass and burn ants with Qyburn's microscope.