dmccoy Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 In a separate post about direwolves, I noted the striking physical similarities between Ghost and Bloodraven and concluded that the similarities indicate some relationship between the two, and a coming relationship between Jon Snow and Bloodraven by extension. I concluded that Jon would, therefore, be linked to the Others, rather than to R'hllor. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117814-direwolf-symbolismcorrelation/ As I pondered this further, I came to the conclusion that my initial conclusion may be wrong. To analyze this and come to a conclusion, let's first establish some assumptions. There is a two-sided war/struggle between the Unnamed god of the Others and R'hllor. This seems to be the overall theme in GRRM's series, the juxtaposition between light and dark, good and evil, fire and ice, etc. It is important to note that Martin purposefully writes in a manner that flips archetypes. "Good" guys aren't totally good, "bad" guys aren't totally bad. The reader cannot assume that one side is inherently better than the other. In fact, it is probably appropriate to only think of the sides simply as opposed, rather than good or evil.Every character will have a role in this war, either on one side or the other, either by choice, fate, or happenstance. If a character didn't have some role in the war, it stands to reason the character would have never been written in the first place. This is essentially Checkov's Gun theory (a dramatic principle that requires every element in a narrative be necessary and irreplaceable).Bloodraven and Jon Snow will be on the same side in the coming war. To support this premise, one must accept that the parallels between Ghost and Bloodraven are too strong to be coincidental. From my previous post: What cannot be ignored is the similarities between Bloodraven and Ghost. In addition to the obvious physical similarity (both being albino and possessing white skin/fur and red eyes), both are silent and stealthy. Indeed, it is mentioned frequently how Ghost moves without making a sound. Based on these assumptions, the questions moving forward are, "Which side is Bloodraven on? Is Jon destined to be on the same side?" First, let's look at Bloodraven and determine for which side he has been acting. The Argument for the Great Other Bloodraven and Bran's cave beneath the weirwood resides deep in the North beyond the Wall, near the realm of the Others. Does this indicate that Bloodraven would be in league with the Others?The cave is dark, Bloodraven tells Bran not to fear the darkness, that it is his shield and will make him strong. According to Melisandre, darkness and cold belongs to the Other.Melisandre appears to see Bran and Bloodraven in a vision and wonders if they are the champion of the Great Other. Is her conclusion correct?Coldhands, a wight, was apparently an agent for Bloodraven.The Argument for R'hllorThe cave beneath the weirwood is warded against wights and presumably against the Others. If Bloodraven is in league with the Great Other, would it be necessary to ward the cave?Bloodraven is a descendant of the Targaryens, who are affiliated with Fire.While the cave is dark, it is also warmer than the outside. Does darkness in and of itself represent the Great Other?Melisandre has been know to misinterpret visions. As with all prophecies, they are inherently difficult to understand.Regardless of one's conclusion to the question for which side Bloodraven is on, the question remains as to whether Jon is destined to be on the same side as Bloodraven. I'm curious as to other people's thoughts on the link between Ghost/Jon and Bloodraven. If the premise of that link is rejected then everything else is a moot point, so for the sake of argument let's assume that there is a link between the two and that all the other assumptions are correct. Where does it go from there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archmaester Drew Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Welcome to the forum! :cheers: I agree that there is an elemental oppositional theme in the series, although I don't think that it is only ice and fire, but also earth and air. The Children sing the song of the earth, they are orthogonal to the Others, as it were, not allied or in opposition. Although in the past and likely present, the Children are in conflict with the Others and working with the humans. We haven't seen much of the air/sky/storm god faction yet, but I think we will... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northernmonkey Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 I'm pretty sure that Bloodraven knows about Jon's heritage and considers him the rightful king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bael's Bastard Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 I think it is interesting to consider what Bloodraven might have known or believed at the time that he supported Daeron II over Daemon. If things go the other way you might not have the Aegon V, Jaehaerys II, Aerys II, Rhaegar, or Jon. Maybe it wasn't until after Aegon V was king and Bloodraven went to and beyond the Wall that he really learned some things. But it would be interesting if he had dreams or something way back before or during the Blackfyre rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 I vote neither. They are on the side of men. If gods get into it at all, they are personally for the Old Gods, but are fighting for all Westerosi regardless of professed religious choice. Mel is the one claiming that it's R'hllor versus The Great Other (who is probably just some general who wishes he'd retired years ago and let someone else deal with the headaches), and she doesn't have the best track record. It may be that the Others are going to turn out to not be the big threat. Could be that the humans and Others are going to have to team up to defeat something/someone worse (and no, I don't mean Dany and the Dragons, which sound like a kids' rock band). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baela of Pentos Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 I think it is interesting to consider what Bloodraven might have known or believed at the time that he supported Daeron II over Daemon. If things go the other way you might not have the Aegon V, Jaehaerys II, Aerys II, Rhaegar, or Jon. Maybe it wasn't until after Aegon V was king and Bloodraven went to and beyond the Wall that he really learned some things. But it would be interesting if he had dreams or something way back before or during the Blackfyre rebellion.I have wondered the same, what BR knew and when.He lead the great council that first offered Aemon the crown. (Tho it was a great council so even if he knew tPTWP and was for Egg, other lords may have different thoughts.)But I felt that he didn't join the NW because he was emptied out of the black cell (he was already out), but he sensed he should be going north. Can't wait to find out more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk_2230 Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Does anyone else think that GRRM will put our favorite characters on different sides of this war ? Jon on a different side to Bran, ect.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baela of Pentos Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 I'm pretty sure that Bloodraven knows about Jon's heritage and considers him the rightful king.If anyone knows anything, I think it's BR. He has watched the Stark children all their lives.He and Jon has quite a few parallel: Targaryen, raised as bastards, followers of the old gods, skin changing ability, LC of the NW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKingoftheSevenKingdoms Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 If anyone knows anything, I think it's BR. He has watched the Stark children all their lives.He and Jon has quite a few parallel: Targaryen, raised as bastards, followers of the old gods, skin changing ability, LC of the NW. I think that Howland Reed will not be the one to reveal (to us anyway) Jon's true parentage, but Bloodraven with or without Bran. Out of all the Stark children, it seems Bloodraven has been keeping a keen eye on Bran and Jon the most. And it seems Bloodraven knows that the person who will deal with the Others in a serious way will be born of Aegon V's line (Dany, Jon and possibly Aegon). I think he's trying to groom Bran to help them out to deal with whatever side he chooses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northernmonkey Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 If anyone knows anything, I think it's BR. He has watched the Stark children all their lives. That's not necessarily true. As far as we know he can only see what happens in front of weirwood trees. I think he just witnessed the wedding of Rhaegar and Lyanna, so he knows that Jon is the rightful king. It's possible that he's been communicating with all the Stark kids in their dreams, but I've not got any evidence for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.