So how many people think Dany is the younger more beautiful queen?

[larastone]

I can see it going that way. Cersei, by trying to avoid it all, destroys herself and everything around her, including her children. Then just when you think she can't loose anything else, the YMBQ comes along and takes her place as Queen of Westeros. (and then Cersei dies at the hands of her Volanqar). I would just prefer it be Cersei that causes her own destruction instead of it being someone else.

yes exactly, that's how I see it going. and hell I think its very much possible that Cersei would truly want to die at that point. the prophecy says and when your "tears have drowned you" which might be a hint that Cersei has consumed the Tears of Lys at that point to kill herself and the valonqar (Jaime lets be real) gives her a mercy death. It definitely won't be an easy chapter to read I feel like.....

[sapphire_lion]

except Maggy's prophecy has been pretty damn straight forward with all that has come true so far lol. so while your sarcasm is cute, it doesn't really work here.

The prophesy seems straightforward because you are able to identify some events that have already happened and place them within the context of what Maggy foretold. But it’s not that easy. This prophesy does not actually state what you believe it means. Your interpretation is predicated on several assumptions. It is possible for some (if not all) of these assumptions to be unwarranted. Hence the ambiguity. lol.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

well I also feel like people ruling out dany because its too obvious is being unfair.

Then it's a good thing that people are arguing points based on timelines and proximity (e.g. "Aegon is probably going to beat Dany to King's Landing and get rid of the Lannisters before she ever gets there"), and not just on "it's too obvious."

I'm also still not sold on why Dany being the younger queen makes it especially Greek tragedy/Shakespearean. Surely it actually being Cersei herself, the younger version of herself, makes more sense if you're trying to argue it'll go a Greek tragedy/Shakespearean route. Cersei being responsible for her own downfall holds true whether it's Dany or someone else. So I'm still not sure why you think it must be Dany in order for the Greek tragedy/Shakespearean angle to work. You still haven't actually explained it other to say that it "makes sense" to you.

[TheMysteriousOne]

This thread is not going so well...

[BearQueen87]

This thread is not going so well...

it has Dany in the title...of course it's not.

[larastone]

Then it's a good thing that people are arguing points based on timelines and proximity (e.g. "Aegon is probably going to beat Dany to King's Landing and get rid of the Lannisters before she ever gets there"), and not just on "it's too obvious."

I'm also still not sold on why Dany being the younger queen makes it especially Greek tragedy/Shakespearean. Surely it actually being Cersei herself, the younger version of herself, makes more sense if you're trying to argue it'll go a Greek tragedy/Shakespearean route. Cersei being responsible for her own downfall holds true whether it's Dany or someone else. So I'm still not sure why you think it must be Dany in order for the Greek tragedy/Shakespearean angle to work. You still haven't actually explained it other to say that it "makes sense" to you.

because Dany being the YMBQ is the second best option for it to be a Greek/Shakespearean tragedy because like BearQueen87 said:

IF Dany is the YMBQ, then I think she comes in at the very last second, after Cersei has destroyed herself and KL and the IT. I don't think Dany will have anything to do with actively replacing Cersei.

I would actually love it if Cersei herself turned out to be the YMBQ, much more so than Dany actually. but that just doesn't seem very likely to me right now.

And you've already heard my opinions on the timings......like I've said before I'm not concerned with them rn bc I'm thinking of endgames not details.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I can't wait for Dany to be the YMBQ and for people to cry bitter salty tears... the Dany hate here is ridiculous.

This is so typical of the sentiments here. Fans of a character think they will be the single person to solve every problem in the story and any word against them is spurned by hate. So few can be objective. All you've said to support your theory is that it feels like that's the way things are headed and it would be great if it turned out that way. And when others give very sound reasons why it might not be correct you respond that you can't wait for them to cry bitter salty tears and the hate is ridiculous. Sigh.

I am a huge Dany fan but I can't ignore where the story is at the moment. Based on where the players in this scene have been placed, I've made my theory. Based on what you have read and would like, you've made yours. Why do there have to be bitter salty tears for anyone?

(Dany/Arya are tied as my favorite characters, with Arya only having a tiny bit of preference over Dany).

see that's why I think its Dany because I feel like thats where the story is heading. I don't see the prophecy as another Snow White 2.0 story but rather a Greek Tragedy. Cersei in general is a very Shakespearean/Greek myth character imo.

And I actually like and have a great amount of sympathy/empathy for Cersei, and I don't have the need to revel in someone actively taking everything away from her and I feel like GRRM doesn't either even if she may not be his favorite.

People wanted so badly for GRRM to give Cersei ~what she deserved~, but what did GRRM give...the WOS.......So I don't see GRRM having the younger more beautiful queen to take everything from Cersei as some sort of ~poetic justice~, I see him writing it as her tragedy.

Plus since I obviously adooooreee and love dany (seriously I really do love her lol, she's on my list for top 5 favorite fictional characters), I desperately want to see KL from her POV I'll admit.

This is all personal wishes about how the text should go and that's fine. I have my wishes for how I'd like it to go as well, but that hardly means that anyone who doesn't share my wish for the end is a hater and should cry if I'm right about my theories. Fair is fair. Objectivity is such a rare occurrence here but sadly insults and condescending tones are in abundance.

And on a final note, while most people wanted to Cersei pay for her serious crimes and all the innocents condemned to death by her, most readers did not enjoy her Walk. It was far more than poetic justice and that's just how Martin wanted readers to react to it. Cersei is definitely a tragedy. But none of that supports Dany being the one to take the last bit from her. Dany has her own story.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

because Dany being the YMBQ is the second best option for it to be a Greek/Shakespearean tragedy because like BearQueen87 said:

I would actually love it if Cersei herself turned out to be the YMBQ, much more so than Dany actually. but that just doesn't seem very likely to me right now.

And you've already heard my opinions on the timings......like I've said before I'm not concerned with them rn bc I'm thinking of endgames not details.

How, exactly, can Dany be the one to take what Cersei's holds dear if she's not the one who actually does it? If she comes in after Cersei has already lost everything, then she isn't the one to take all that Cersei holds dear, because Cersei will have already lost it.

And again, there is still the Greek tragedy/Shakespearean angle to the whole thing whether it's Dany or not. It does not "need" to be Dany in order for it to have that angle, and it being Dany doesn't make it "more" Shakespearean than if it were someone else.

Pounce FTW is correct that you're talking in terms of what you want, not in terms of what might make sense narratively. "I would actually love it ...". What you would love is absolutely irrelevant.

[larastone]

This is so typical of the sentiments here. Fans of a character think they will be the single person to solve every problem in the story and any word against them is spurned by hate. So few can be objective. All you've said to support your theory is that it feels like that's the way things are headed and it would be great if it turned out that way. And when others give very sound reasons why it might not be correct you respond that you can't wait for them to cry bitter salty tears and the hate is ridiculous. Sigh.

I am a huge Dany fan but I can't ignore where the story is at the moment. Based on where the players in this scene have been placed, I've made my theory. Based on what you have read and would like, you've made yours. Why do there have to be bitter salty tears for anyone?

This is all personal wishes about how the text should go and that's fine. I have my wishes for how I'd like it to go as well, but that hardly means that anyone who doesn't share my wish for the end is a hater and should cry if I'm right about my theories. Fair is fair. Objectivity is such a rare occurrence here but sadly insults and condescending tones are in abundance.

And on a final note, while most people wanted to Cersei pay for her serious crimes and all the innocents condemned to death by her, most readers did not enjoy her Walk. It was far more than poetic justice and that's just how Martin wanted readers to react to it. Cersei is definitely a tragedy. But none of that supports Dany being the one to take the last bit from her. Dany has her own story.

yeah but people here aren't just disagreeing with me in a normal way, they're basically saying that its impossible for dany to be the YMBQ..........which I think is jumping the gun. and its not like I'm making this shit out of nowhere either, in AFFC Cersei hears many threats of dragons and Mereen but ignores them all because she's too busy being paranoid over Tyrion and Margaery. and one of the major reasons why Cersei fails is because of her short-sightedness. I only said the "tears" comment after I felt like people had been rude to me, seriously some people here are trying to be fucking GRRM or something.

[sapphire_lion]

k miss know it all. but just letting you know that your post doesn't make much sense. you're just twisting words around in order to pat yourself on the back and gloat. Maggy said that Cersei would marry the king...which happened. Maggy said that Cersei would have 3 kids and her husband king would have 16 kids.....which happened.

Maggy explicitly stated that Cersei would marry a King and have 3 kids.

She did not explicitly state that another Queen would cast her down or that her little brother would kill her. These are assumptions.

considering that the story hasn't finished yet, then exactly who the fuck are you to tell me that the prophecy does not mean what I believe it means?? seriously who do you even think you are. you're not fucking GRRM. so I don't need to see your stupid know-it-all attitude because you know no better than I do.

This is priceless. I love it.

and considering that pretty much everything has gone mostly straightforward so far, my interpretation is based on the actual text much MORE than yours. so stop being so insufferable because........

you seriously are.

Cersei thinks the same. Everything has gone mostly straightforward so far. It totally supports her interpretation too.

go back and re-read some brienne chapters or something because you could benefit from some of her humble attitude.

I think we could all benefit from following Brienne’s example. Too bad it isn't going to happen.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

The prophesy seems straightforward because you are able to identify some events that have already happened and place them within the context of what Maggy foretold. But it’s not that easy. This prophesy does not actually state what you believe it means. Your interpretation is predicated on several assumptions. It is possible for some (if not all) of these assumptions to be unwarranted. Hence the ambiguity. lol.

I agree, sapphire_lion!

yeah but people here aren't just disagreeing with me in a normal way, they're basically saying that its impossible for dany to be the YMBQ..........

It is highly unlikely that she will be in King's Landing when Cersei is toppled but nothing is impossible.

[larastone]

How, exactly, can Dany be the one to take what Cersei's holds dear if she's not the one who actually does it? If she comes in after Cersei has already lost everything, then she isn't the one to take all that Cersei holds dear, because Cersei will have already lost it.

And again, there is still the Greek tragedy/Shakespearean angle to the hold thing whether it's Dany or not. It does not "need" to be Dany in order for it to have that angle, and it being Dany doesn't make it "more" Shakespearean than if it were someone else.

Pounce FTW is correct that you're talking in terms of what you want, not in terms of what might make sense narratively. "I would actually love it ...". What you would love is absolutely irrelevant.

jesus I've already explained this to you, Dany can easily take away Cersei's kingdom because Cersei would have completely destroyed herself at that point. I don't get why that's such a hard concept to understand. Dany is taking from Cersei, but it would be not very difficult for her because at that point I expect Cersei's mental health to be even worse than it is right now, I expect KL to be in utter chaos and I expect people to hate Cersei even more than they do so rn...which would ALL be from Cersei's OWN DOING...therefore it fitting Cersei being her own worst enemy. It's just how I envision things and I don't like it when people tell me its impossible or that I'm 100% completely wrong because frankly nobody here actually has the TWOW/ADOS in their hands. seriously I really don't feel like I'm being unreasonable here.

And me "wanting" comes second from narrative sense. If it was all about me making up theories based on wish fulfillment, then I would be suggesting that the most likely scenario would be that Cersei kills herself before Tommen and Myrcella are harmed in order to beat the prophecy. But that seems unrealistic based on the text so far and thats why I'm not suggesting it.

[larastone]

Maggy explicitly stated that Cersei would marry a King and have 3 kids.

She did not explicitly state that another Queen would cast her down or that her little brother would kill her. These are assumptions.

This is priceless. I love it.

Cersei thinks the same. Everything has gone mostly straightforward so far. It totally supports her interpretation too.

I think we could all benefit from following Brienne’s example. Too bad it isn't going to happen.

except she did..

... "I will be queen, though?" asked the younger her.

"Aye." Malice gleamed in Maggys yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

considering the question that Cersei asks, the context and semantics. Maggy is most certainly talking about another queen replacing Cersei. and the prophecy loses impact if anyone could fit in the role. plus the prophecy is all about cersei's downfall and everything Cersei holds dear, and Cersei cares about being queen. so it doesn't make narrative sense for it to not being a queen.

and while what I'm saying maybe priceless rn, but you know what's going to be even more priceless?? when it is actually another queen that will replace Cersei in the story and you'll find out that you were the one doing the reaching. that will be more priceless and satisfying above all.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

jesus I've already explained this to you, Dany can easily take away Cersei's kingdom because Cersei would have completely destroyed herself at that point. I don't get why that's such a hard concept to understand. Dany is taking from Cersei, but it would be not very difficult for her because at that point I expect Cersei's mental health to be even worse than it is right now, I expect KL to be in utter chaos and I expect people to hate Cersei even more than they do so rn...which would ALL be from Cersei's OWN DOING...therefore it fitting Cersei being her own worst enemy. It's just how I envision things and I don't like it when people tell me its impossible or that I'm 100% completely wrong because frankly nobody here actually has the TWOW/ADOS in their hands. seriously I really don't feel like I'm being unreasonable here.

OK, then explain why you think Dany will beat Aegon to King's Landing when he's actually already in Westeros and she isn't and Varys is actively paving the way for Aegon to take power. I also believe someone pointed out that the Lannisters don't feature as opponents in Dany's HOTU visions, suggesting that she might not ever face them, i.e. their regime will be toppled by the time she arrives.

(That also assumes that I actually believe that taking all Cersei holds dear can be equated to simply taking the throne, and I don't.)

The only one using the word "impossible" is you. Is it possible for it to be Dany? Sure. Do I think it's Dany, based on thematic reasoning, timeliness and proximity? No.

considering the question that Cersei asks, the context and semantics. Maggy is most certainly talking about another queen replacing Cersei. and the prophecy loses impact if anyone could fit in the role. plus the prophecy is all about cersei's downfall and everything Cersei holds dear, and Cersei cares about being queen. so it doesn't make narrative sense for it to not being a queen.

GRRM plays with semantics and context and such all the time. Note the example of the guy who avoided that castle because he thought he'd die there, only to die at the inn that had the same name.

We're not saying "anyone" can fit the role. That's where the idea of the personal connection comes in; it'd be someone who has something personal with Cersei, something Dany doesn't.

[TheMysteriousOne]

except she did..

considering the question that Cersei asks, the context and semantics. Maggy is most certainly talking about another queen replacing Cersei. and the prophecy loses impact if anyone could fit in the role. plus the prophecy is all about cersei's downfall and everything Cersei holds dear, and Cersei cares about being queen. so it doesn't make narrative sense for it to not being a queen.

and while what I'm saying maybe priceless rn, but you know what's going to be even more priceless?? when it is actually another queen that will replace Cersei in the story and you'll find out that you were the one doing the reaching. that will be more priceless and satisfying above all.

I think you're taking this whole argument way too seriously. Sometimes, you just have to take a step back and breathe.

[larastone]

OK, then explain why you think Dany will beat Aegon to King's Landing when he's actually already in Westeros and she isn't and Varys is actively paving the way for Aegon to take power. I also believe someone pointed out that the Lannisters don't feature as opponents in Dany's HOTU visions, suggesting that she might not ever face them, i.e. their regime will be toppled by the time she arrives.

(That also assumes that I actually believe that taking all Cersei holds dear can be equated to simply taking the throne, and I don't.)

The only one using the word "impossible" is you. Is it possible for it to be Dany? Sure. Do I think it's Dany, based on thematic reasoning, timeliness and proximity? No.

GRRM plays with semantics and context and such all the time. Note the example of the guy who avoided that castle because he thought he'd die there, only to die at the inn that had the same name.

We're not saying "anyone" can fit the role. That's where the idea of the personal connection comes in; it'd be someone who has something personal with Cersei, something Dany doesn't.

dude, we have different opinions..we've already established that a long time ago. i get what you're saying about the timing. but with the way that i see it....it makes narrative sense for Dany to be the YMBQ and that's why I'm not overly concerned about the timing rn. plus we don't know what kind of twists that GRRM will pull up. we don't. that's all i'm saying. like how many times do i have to repeat myself. why do you keep asking the same questions?

and in my interpretation, it doesn't need to someone who has a personal connection with cersei. but i do feel like it needs to be a queen because queenship is something that cersei holds dear. that's why i believe that it's dany.

i'm not saying that everything that you guys are saying is impossible and i certainly don't appreciate you guys saying my theory is impossible either. especially because nobody knows right now.

[oursisthefury69]

I don't think that's quite fair. Dany's my very favorite character and I'm not convinced she's the YMBQ because I think it's a bit too obvious and anti-climactic given that she has no personal history with Cersei. If Dany is the YMBQ, then I'm not going to tear out my hair and cry bitter salty tears. I'll admit I was wrong, but my reasons for not thinking it's Dany have zero to do with my not liking her--quite the contrary.

Its certainly not too obvious too Cersie, who's been killing people trying to get Margaery executed, and may have even thought it was Sansa before Margaery was introduced in Kings Landing. And i'd say the personal history could come in the form of Dany knowing her twin brother is revered for literally backstabbing her own father, knowing Cersies father as the one who sacked Kings Landing, knowing Cersies husband was the one to take the throne and attempt (an) assassination(s) on her life. "No personal history" ??

Not buying it at all. When one talks about someone's little brother. One never says the little brother. That's actually an odd way to phrase it.

GRRM intentionally wrote Maggy’s prophesy in an ambiguous manner knowing full well that a significant portion of his readership would make the exact same assumptions Cersei did. You are interpreting the prophesy in the exact same manner as Cersei (except you are selecting a different little brother and a different Queen).

However, it remains a fact that the prophesy never specified that "another, younger and more beautiful" would be another queen, just as it never specified that "the vaonqar" would be Cersei's valonqar. You may believe the prophesy means as much based on the context. But this is your interpretation based on your assumptions. It's not guaranteed to be the correct interpretation.

1. Im not sure what you even mean by this first line, all we know is it means little brother.

2. "Interpeting the prophecy in the exact same manner as Cersie (except selecting a different little brother and different queen) .... "

Unless theres some confusion in the the definition of the words exact and same, i think what you meant to put is entirely differently, seeing as you somehow simultaneously acknowledge my assertions of the prophecy being 2 different people than that of which Cersie believes and also say im interpreting it in the same manner as her.

Dont think i really need to go much further than that seeing the ridiculousness of the above, it is refering to one of her brothers and to a queen per a little thing called context

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

i'm not saying that everything that you guys are saying is impossible and i certainly don't appreciate you guys saying my theory is impossible either. especially because nobody knows right now.

Who has actually used the word "impossible"? Besides you. Fair enough if you find someone who has, but the only person I see using it is you.

I keep asking the same questions because you never actually answer them satisfactorily the first time other than to say, "Timing? Eh. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯" I don't think you can just wave off the fact that Aegon is much, much closer to King's Landing, geographically and strategically, than Dany.

[oursisthefury69]

I can see it going that way. Cersei, by trying to avoid it all, destroys herself and everything around her, including her children. Then just when you think she can't loose anything else, the YMBQ comes along and takes her place as Queen of Westeros. (and then Cersei dies at the hands of her Volanqar). I would just prefer it be Cersei that causes her own destruction instead of it being someone else.

If you've read book 4 then you should know the whole Cersie causing her own destruction boat has long sailed away

[larastone]

I think you're taking this whole argument way too seriously. Sometimes, you just have to take a step back and breathe.

lol yeah i know, I am getting a little too heated. but I just really don't like it when people try to play god. I like open-minded discussions not someone telling me that:

This prophesy does not actually state what you believe it means.

like this chick is stating her opinion as a damn fact?? :bs:​ when she doesn't know shit herself. how dare she tell me that I'm wrong when she's just another nobody fan in this huge fandom. If someone's going to tell me that I'm wrong, its certainly not going to be another fan. :rolleyes: