Serial Season 2: Deserter Storm

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

New episode is out, focuses on Adnan's defense. I found this episode pretty depressing, the whole situation just becomes more and more depressing the more Sarah sheds light on it. Anyway, great work as always from Sarah.

Yeah, this episode really hit all the depressing notes.

The stuff with Adnon's defense attorney Cristina Gutierrez was particularly depressing. By all accounts she was a very successful, very tenacious and very good Defense attorney who, over the course of a year or two, completely lost it. This is something that's not unheard of in the legal profession. Sometimes it's really hard for a successful attorney to 'let it go' even when common sense is clearly telling them that because of age, mental or physical health or substance abuse issues render them unable to practice at an acceptable level. Her decline, disbarment and eventual death only took a few years. We'll never know exactly what happened, but it's clear towards the end she had serious problems with both money and an apparent inability to do the work she had taken on. From the sounds of it, she left quite a few clients in the lurch.

Also depressing was the extent to which Pakistani/Muslim prejudice appeared to play into the verdict, and how the Prosecutor's used code words like "honor" to tap into prejudices about how Adnon supposedly viewed women based upon assumptions about Pakistani culture.

[JonArryn]

Framing Adnan does not require him to be a mastermind at all. Probably just a desperate move from a clearly stupid person. It fit with the police's preconceived notions about the vengeful ex-boyfriend scenario and from there all it took was a ton of clear confirmation bias from the police as they sifted through Jay's rambling collection of contradictions, lies and inconsistencies in order to cobble together some kind of plausible sounding scenario which conformed to the facts of the case. Which isn't difficult to do; someone on Reddit began with the conclusion that Jay did it and went through all the info and made a very convincing scenario.

One very important thing for the police was the anonymous call too, that's an important piece here I think. Although the anonymous caller can be anyone, he did have some real knowledge about this case. He said that the place where they found the body was a place where Adnan and Hae had sex before. We also have a friend of Adnan smoking weed with him at the Best Buy, the alleged murder place.

It's a possibility that it's Jay, of course. But I think he do have to have some kind of mastermind to manage that set up. Any mistake and he's done. If Adnan wasn't with Jay at the time the murder took place (around 2:30) then Jay has to have the luck that Adnan isn't with anyone who can give him an alibi, say Aisha or whoever, or was home when his brothers or parents were. Instead Adnan don't have anyone who can say they saw him at the exact time (except the girl from the first episode who wasn't really dead certain, but had seen him some time, she couldn't really say) and his story is so lacking that he looks suspicious. He can't remember the day, yet it was the same day his ex-girlfriend, which he was still great friends with, went missing. And after that day, he doesn't make a single attempt to reach out to her.

The only other things is that they both did it, and JAy set him up but why hasn'tAdnan said anything then? He'd rather take 15 years in prison then admit they were two? It doesn't make sense he just don't say anything about it.

I'm on the same side as Sarah here, why doesn't Adnan remember that day? It's as far from an ordinary day as it can get for a teenager, in my opinion.

At the same time Jay has managed to kill Hae, take contact with Adnan, go home to a friend where Adnan and Jay was both acting suspicous, make a phone call to Nisha etc. I think it takes a lot more for it to be Jay, than Adnan and that is probably what the police thought too. Am I dead certain? No, but if you strip it off and look at the most logical things it would have been very hard for Jay to pull it off. Then he's sociopathic enough to frame his friend, while remaing ice cold during the interviews.

The other thing is that Hae was in her car with the murderer(probably), and I think it would take a lot more for her to trust Jay into the car, than Adnan. There's so much stuff about this case which seem weird, but isn't that the usual thing when murder has been commit. I just think Adnan looks very guilty from the things we've gotten to know so far, and I kind of feels like Sarah thinks the same as of now, up to episode 7.

I was in my early 20's in 1999. There is absolutely no way you would be lending your phone to a friend. First off making calls was much more expensive then it is today. You might loan it to make a call but not to carry around for a whole day. Also if Jay is the neighborhood weed supply, he should have his own damn cell phone. What kind of shitty drug dealer doesn't have a cell phone?

Also don't forget the huge sticking point with the cell phone. There is that girl whose name I don't remember that Anand called and put Jay on the phone with.

I wonder if what happened was Jay was looking out while Anand killed her, or something. Or maybe was even a little more active, like holding her down.

Yeah, I was only 6 years in 99' so you probably know more about it than I do. Although phones back then weren't as valuable as they are now, they were around 50-100 while phones now cost around 500.

The girl Adnan called (which he said he didn't and that it was a wrong dial from Jay or something) was Nisha.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

The big problem with the "Nisha Call" for me is that based on Nisha's testimony at both trials, that call took place while Adnon was visiting Jay at his job at the adult video store. Nisha testifies to this clearly at the first trial, and begins saying the same thing at the second trial before the Prosecutor cuts her off and redirects her to talk about something else. Based on Koenig's telling of the story, it's uncontroverted that Jay didn't get that job until a week or two AFTER Hae went missing. I have a really hard time believing that Nisha is actually testifying to the approximately two minutes and thirty second call that Adnon's phone registers on the date Hae went missing. I think that almost has to be a separate telephone call that nobody has correctly identified.

[JonArryn]

The big problem with the "Nisha Call" for me is that based on Nisha's testimony at both trials, that call took place while Adnon was visiting Jay at his job at the adult video store. Nisha testifies to this clearly at the first trial, and begins saying the same thing at the second trial before the Prosecutor cuts her off and redirects her to talk about something else. Based on Koenig's telling of the story, it's uncontroverted that Jay didn't get that job until a week or two AFTER Hae went missing. I have a really hard time believing that Nisha is actually testifying to the approximately two minutes and thirty second call that Adnon's phone registers on the date Hae went missing. I think that almost has to be a separate telephone call that nobody has correctly identified.

Yeah, I think you're right here. It kind of implies Adnan and Jay with the same phone and all, but it doesn't give the prosecution the exact story that they're after, and therefore it's better for them to omit certain details. The court case seem to be a complete mess, and I haven't gotten to episode 10 yet, but it defintely feels like Adnan's defense attorney could have done more with what she had. At the same time, what f she was certain he was guilty, and therefore she didn't put all she could into it. I don't know, it's a lot of layers here, and what's interesting is that this is probably not the only case out there that looks like this.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

The big problem with the "Nisha Call" for me is that based on Nisha's testimony at both trials, that call took place while Adnon was visiting Jay at his job at the adult video store. Nisha testifies to this clearly at the first trial, and begins saying the same thing at the second trial before the Prosecutor cuts her off and redirects her to talk about something else. Based on Koenig's telling of the story, it's uncontroverted that Jay didn't get that job until a week or two AFTER Hae went missing. I have a really hard time believing that Nisha is actually testifying to the approximately two minutes and thirty second call that Adnon's phone registers on the date Hae went missing. I think that almost has to be a separate telephone call that nobody has correctly identified.

I've never understood Koenig's focus on the Nisha call, it isn't that troubling to Adnan's defense to me. First because, as you say, Nisha's testimony contradicts the uncontroverted fact that Jay didn't work at the video store until weeks after, and, second, because I find the butt dial explanation perfectly plausible. I butt-dialed people in the pre-smartphone era, even without having anyone on speed-dial, as Adnan says he did.

I was in my early 20's in 1999. There is absolutely no way you would be lending your phone to a friend. First off making calls was much more expensive then it is today. You might loan it to make a call but not to carry around for a whole day.

This is a pretty interesting point that I hadn't considered. Jay is making a ton of calls, I don't know what rates were back then but I think you're right that it was much more expensive so it's very odd to hand over your phone to this guy just to be nice. Although I guess it's possible Adnan didn't anticipate Jay using it so irresponsibly (or murderously).

It's a possibility that it's Jay, of course. But I think he do have to have some kind of mastermind to manage that set up. Any mistake and he's done.

I agree with you that Jay would have to be taking a huge risk to try to frame Adnan if he did it, but I think, if this is this case, he's more probably a lucky idiot (coached along by police confirmation bias) than a mastermind.

As for the latest episode, I also found it extremely sad. I felt sick by the end of it. I also looked up the case they referenced of the older brother killing the younger brother... wow. That one is horrible, and extremely depressing.

It was interesting to hear Adnan defend Gutierrez, even as people close to him (Rabia, his parents), have openly voiced complaints about her conduct. This is in keeping with Adnan's seeming unwillingness to say anything too bad about anyone, even Jay. I suppose he could just take that rosy a view of people- or he's an utter psychopath carefully crafting an understanding persona, haha. In any case, the portrait of Gutierrez was much more sympathetic than I was expecting (and was primed for after the previous clips we've heard of her), and I found her individual story as compelling and sad as some of the other individual stories we've gotten. It seems like, if her defense was flawed, it was not outrageously flawed, and certainly not cynically flawed (that she did it to make more money on appeal), as Rabia has argued.

I've been waiting for the podcast get back to the racial and cultural component of this since the first episode. And, wow, it was more overt than I expected it to be. No question, at least in the bail stuff we heard, that the prosecution was accessing some extremely racist tropes about Muslims and Pakistanis. And then I think we also heard from a juror who acknowledges this bias weighed on his decision.

[Eddard Stark is online]

I'm so glad I found this thread! I've been listening to Serial since the beginning and for several weeks had no idea it had become so popular, so didn't occur to me others on here might also be following the series.

The way I see it there are three possibilities:

1. Adnan really did it, and Jay's testimony, despite all its contradictions and holes, is in fact true.

2. Jay did it and framed Adnan.

3. Adnan and Jay did it together.

What I don't understand is, if Adnan is truly innocent, why hasn't he accused Jay? I can understand Koenig as a reporter not wanting to be sued for slander by suggesting on public radio that she thinks Jay may have murdered Hae himself... But as for Adnan? Why hasn't he argued back at Jay's assertions that he killed Hae? I really don't get that at all. I think in one of the early episodes Koenig asked Adnan who might have killed Hae in that case and he answered "I don't know!". That sits really uncomfortably with me.

Also, for anyone (like me) hoping for the series to conclude with a definitive answer, it would seem from this NY Times interview with Sarah that's not gonna happen.

[JonArryn]

What I don't understand is, if Adnan is truly innocent, why hasn't he accused Jay? I can understand Koenig as a reporter not wanting to be sued for slander by suggesting on public radio that she thinks Jay may have murdered Hae himself... But as for Adnan? Why hasn't he argued back at Jay's assertions that he killed Hae? I really don't get that at all. I think in one of the early episodes Koenig asked Adnan who might have killed Hae in that case and he answered "I don't know!". That sits really uncomfortably with me.

Yeah, this is one of the biggest things with this case for me. Why didn't he do anything back then? Because he is trying to prove his innocence now 15 years later with the phone calls to Sarah, but not defending yourself back then, does kind of seem like silently admitting your guilt. It just doesn't make sense for him to do that.

The note where he was writing to a friend who was a girl where he wrote something like: "I'm gonna kill her" regarding Hae is pretty telling to me. In a bigger picture maybe you can see it as a teenager joking around with a friend, but considering the outcome it's pretty disturbing. And it wasn't a long time since I was a teenager and I can't remember hearing many I know cracking jokes about killing someone. It's not usually something a normal person jokes about, in my opinion. It kind of shows he had a dark side who was slipping through the cracks every now and then.

[Eddard Stark is online]

There's a reason I consider juries a relic when it comes to justice systems.

Did anyone else cringe when they listened to Sarah's interview with one of the people on the jury? (Episode 8 I think, "The Deal with Jay") In response to Jay's testimony that he helped Adnan bury the body, the juror said something along the lines of "I was struck by the fact that, if he [Jay] didn't do it [help bury the body], then why would he admit that?". Her implication being that because Jay was telling the truth about one thing (the burying of the body), his entire testimony therefore had to be true, therefore Adnan is guilty of Hae's murder and Jay is not. I found that to be woefully poor reasoning. I really don't think that the fact Jay helped bury the body, by definition, rules out that he may have had further involvement than he's letting on.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Yeah, this is one of the biggest things with this case for me. Why didn't he do anything back then? Because he is trying to prove his innocence now 15 years later with the phone calls to Sarah, but not defending yourself back then, does kind of seem like silently admitting your guilt. It just doesn't make sense for him to do that.

The note where he was writing to a friend who was a girl where he wrote something like: "I'm gonna kill her" regarding Hae is pretty telling to me. In a bigger picture maybe you can see it as a teenager joking around with a friend, but considering the outcome it's pretty disturbing. And it wasn't a long time since I was a teenager and I can't remember hearing many I know cracking jokes about killing someone. It's not usually something a normal person jokes about, in my opinion. It kind of shows he had a dark side who was slipping through the cracks every now and then.

I'm not sure what you think Adnon should have done. He DID defend himself. He got himself a well-respected, sought-after criminal defense attorney who set about trying to create mountains of reasonable doubt in the State's case. His attorney repeatedly suggested that Jay might have done it (along with Hae's then-current boyfriend). Given the Adnon has repeatedly stated that he just didn't remember the specific details of this one day that took place weeks before he was asked to recall it for the first time, doesn't leave him a lot of room to accuse other people.

Assume Adnon is completely innocent and he really just doesn't remember the day Hae went missing because it wasn't that significant to him. He tooled around with Jay, maybe went to track practice, smoked some weed, went to Jay's friend's house, and then maybe went home and had nothing to do with Hae's death. If that's true, what exactly is Adnon supposed to say about Jay? Presumably he has no proof Jay did anything. Do you put Adnon on the stand, expose him to withering cross-examination about the many gaps in his memory during the day in question, and just have him lob unsubstantiated accusations against Jay that aren't based on personal knowledge, and which therefore, would get struck from his testimony as lacking foundation. It's a no-win situation for him.

[Eddard Stark is online]

Yeah, this is one of the biggest things with this case for me. Why didn't he do anything back then? Because he is trying to prove his innocence now 15 years later with the phone calls to Sarah, but not defending yourself back then, does kind of seem like silently admitting your guilt. It just doesn't make sense for him to do that.

Yeah exactly. It's just too weird. If I was in Adnan's place and I truly was innocent of the crime, and this guy Jay comes along and says I killed Hae, I'd be like "Hell no, I didn't do it - It must be Jay, else why ever would he try to frame me?" I think you'd be absolutely convinced Jay was guilty if he came out of the blue accusing you of something you know for a fact you didn't do.

The note where he was writing to a friend who was a girl where he wrote something like: "I'm gonna kill her" regarding Hae is pretty telling to me. In a bigger picture maybe you can see it as a teenager joking around with a friend, but considering the outcome it's pretty disturbing. And it wasn't a long time since I was a teenager and I can't remember hearing many I know cracking jokes about killing someone. It's not usually something a normal person jokes about, in my opinion. It kind of shows he had a dark side who was slipping through the cracks every now and then.

I think Jay testified that Adnan spoke that he was gonna kill Hae, I can't recall hearing anything on the podcast that Adnan put it in writing. Sorry if I'm being thick, just not quite sure what you mean.

That aside, the fact he said it to Jay, and Jay believed him yet didn't go to the police because he was worried Adnan would reveal Jay's drug dealing to them sounds pretty thin.

I'm not sure what you think Adnon should have done. He DID defend himself. He got himself a well-respected, sought-after criminal defense attorney who set about trying to create mountains of reasonable doubt in the State's case. His attorney repeatedly suggested that Jay might have done it (along with Hae's then-current boyfriend). Given the Adnon has repeatedly stated that he just didn't remember the specific details of this one day that took place weeks before he was asked to recall it for the first time, doesn't leave him a lot of room to accuse other people.

Assume Adnon is completely innocent and he really just doesn't remember the day Hae went missing because it wasn't that significant to him. He tooled around with Jay, maybe went to track practice, smoked some weed, went to Jay's friend's house, and then maybe went home and had nothing to do with Hae's death. If that's true, what exactly is Adnon supposed to say about Jay? Presumably he has no proof Jay did anything. Do you put Adnon on the stand, expose him to withering cross-examination about the many gaps in his memory during the day in question, and just have him lob unsubstantiated accusations against Jay that aren't based on personal knowledge, and which therefore, would get struck from his testimony as lacking foundation. It's a no-win situation for him.

That's a really interesting way of looking at it. I hadn't thought of that at all. I think you're right, it would be really difficult for him to accuse Jay with nothing other than his own personal conviciton of that fact to back it up. Would that also explain why when Koenig asked him who he thought did it, he replied he didn't know? Because if he accused Jay on public radio, he could be sued by Jay for slander?

[OnionAhaiReborn]

I'm so glad I found this thread! I've been listening to Serial since the beginning and for several weeks had no idea it had become so popular, so didn't occur to me others on here might also be following the series.

The way I see it there are three possibilities:

1. Adnan really did it, and Jay's testimony, despite all its contradictions and holes, is in fact true.

2. Jay did it and framed Adnan.

3. Adnan and Jay did it together.

It's pretty left-field but there's also:

4. Jay did it (or was an accessory) with someone else

Just saw this on reddit. It's reddit, and almost completely speculative, so I definitely take it with a grain of salt. But this also does appear to be an angle the Innocence Project is pursuing, in looking for DNA testing, and I'm pretty sure Deirdre Enright talked about looking for something like this in the episode she was on.

[JonArryn]

I'm not sure what you think Adnon should have done. He DID defend himself. He got himself a well-respected, sought-after criminal defense attorney who set about trying to create mountains of reasonable doubt in the State's case. His attorney repeatedly suggested that Jay might have done it (along with Hae's then-current boyfriend). Given the Adnon has repeatedly stated that he just didn't remember the specific details of this one day that took place weeks before he was asked to recall it for the first time, doesn't leave him a lot of room to accuse other people.

Assume Adnon is completely innocent and he really just doesn't remember the day Hae went missing because it wasn't that significant to him. He tooled around with Jay, maybe went to track practice, smoked some weed, went to Jay's friend's house, and then maybe went home and had nothing to do with Hae's death. If that's true, what exactly is Adnon supposed to say about Jay? Presumably he has no proof Jay did anything. Do you put Adnon on the stand, expose him to withering cross-examination about the many gaps in his memory during the day in question, and just have him lob unsubstantiated accusations against Jay that aren't based on personal knowledge, and which therefore, would get struck from his testimony as lacking foundation. It's a no-win situation for him.

I agree with you. This whole case is a double edged sword with doubt and inconcistensies. But did you listen to episode 8? The same way Jay adressed the jury Sarah wonders why Adnan doesn't do at the end of the trial. It's not about cross examination, it's about getting up there and saying something, anything, for yourself. And the jury found it strange too.

I've already admitted it is possible they both have done it, either by themselves or together. I just think the way he acted during that time period is weird. Here we have an ex boyfriend who helps Hae when she's in a minor car accident, but he doesn't even try to contact her when she goes missing.

Both suspects could have done it, but my opinion is that it's much more likely Adnan did it, if you consider everything in the case. And as someone else said, don't put everything on motive in cases like this. It's a part of it, but there are so many other aspects factoring in too.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

I agree with you. This whole case is a double edged sword with doubt and inconcistensies. But did you listen to episode 8? The same way Jay adressed the jury Sarah wonders why Adnan doesn't do at the end of the trial. It's not about cross examination, it's about getting up there and saying something, anything, for yourself. And the jury found it strange too.

I've already admitted it is possible they both have done it, either by themselves or together. I just think the way he acted during that time period is weird. Here we have an ex boyfriend who helps Hae when she's in a minor car accident, but he doesn't even try to contact her when she goes missing.

Both suspects could have done it, but my opinion is that it's much more likely Adnan did it, if you consider everything in the case. And as someone else said, don't put everything on motive in cases like this. It's a part of it, but there are so many other aspects factoring in too.

I'm sure where you are from or how familiar you are with the American legal system, but Adnan can't just stand up and address the jury at the end of the trial. He can only take the stand as a witness. And if he takes the stand, and tells "his side" of the story through his attorney's direct examination of him (I don't know what happened to Hae, I can't account for my entire day, some of what Jay says is true about us smoking weed, I don't have any alibis, but I didn't do it), he is then exposing himself to merciless cross-examination and the Prosecutor is going to make him look like he's lying to hide something.

In the United States, you have a Constitutional right not to take the stand in your own defense. It's so important that Prosecutors are not allowed to make an issue out of the fact that a criminal Defendant didn't take the stand and juries are specifically directed that they are NOT to let a Defendant's failure or refusal to take the stand to influence their decision in any way. The burden of persuasion "beyond a reasonable doubt" is the Prosecutor's burden alone. The fact that at least one juror has admitted that Adnan's refusal to take the stand adversely impacted her opinion of his innocence (and that other jurors felt the same way) is incredibly troubling, because it means they all disregarded the Judge's instructions and, in a way, violated Adnon's Constitutional rights.

[Ken Stone]

Assume Adnon is completely innocent and he really just doesn't remember the day Hae went missing because it wasn't that significant to him. He tooled around with Jay, maybe went to track practice, smoked some weed, went to Jay's friend's house, and then maybe went home and had nothing to do with Hae's death. If that's true, what exactly is Adnon supposed to say about Jay? Presumably he has no proof Jay did anything. Do you put Adnon on the stand, expose him to withering cross-examination about the many gaps in his memory during the day in question, and just have him lob unsubstantiated accusations against Jay that aren't based on personal knowledge, and which therefore, would get struck from his testimony as lacking foundation. It's a no-win situation for him.

If Adnon knows he himself is completely innocent then he knows who did it. It was Jay. How does he know that? Because Jay knew where the body was and said that Adnon and him buried it there. If you know for certain that you didn't bury a body somewhere, but a guy who does know where the body is buried says he buried it with that means you are either insane or the other guy did it. What are the other options?

[Eddard Stark is online]

It's pretty left-field but there's also:

4. Jay did it (or was an accessory) with someone else

Just saw this on reddit. It's reddit, and almost completely speculative, so I definitely take it with a grain of salt. But this also does appear to be an angle the Innocence Project is pursuing, in looking for DNA testing, and I'm pretty sure Deirdre Enright talked about looking for something like this in the episode she was on.

Woah, I've just read the Roy Davis theory link. I'm not used to Reddit, so am a bit lost as to how to navigate the site re. the Serial stuff. Who was Deirdre Enright again? Sorry, I have listened to episodes 1-9 so far, but don't remember exactly who this was.

Damn I feel like I've missed so much of this case. People keep picking up on details that I don't remember. I'm kinda tempted to re-listen to all the previous episodes. I really hope Koenig talks about this Roy Davis theory at some point. There are only 2 episodes left...

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Woah, I've just read the Roy Davis theory link. I'm not used to Reddit, so am a bit lost as to how to navigate the site re. the Serial stuff. Who was Deirdre Enright again? Sorry, I have listened to episodes 1-9 so far, but don't remember exactly who this was.

Damn I feel like I've missed so much of this case. People keep picking up on details that I don't remember. I'm kinda tempted to re-listen to all the previous episodes. I really hope Koenig talks about this Roy Davis theory at some point. There are only 2 episodes left...

Deirdre Enright is the director of the UVA Law School Innocence Project, which has taken on Adnan's case. Episode 7 was pretty heavily focused on her and her input.

[Eddard Stark is online]

By the way, can anyone explain what Adnan's new attorney was doing? In episode 9, his new lawyer advised him not to plea 'not guilty', and instead asked the court to consider it as a 'crime of passion', rather than a pre-meditated murder. His own lawyer told the court Adnan was guilty! I don't get it...

I know Adnan said his new lawyer advised that if he pleaded 'not guilty' it would completely screw his defence. Why is that?

Deirdre Enright is the director of the UVA Law School Innocence Project, which has taken on Adnan's case. Episode 7 was pretty heavily focused on her and her input.

Ah yes, of course, I remember now. Thanks for clearing that up. Guess I'm finding it hard to keep track when there's so much information to consider.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

By the way, can anyone explain what Adnan's new attorney was doing? In episode 9, his new lawyer advised him not to plea 'not guilty', and instead asked the court to consider it as a 'crime of passion', rather than a pre-meditated murder. His own lawyer told the court Adnan was guilty! I don't get it...

I know Adnan said his new lawyer advised that if he pleaded 'not guilty' it would completely screw his defence. Why is that?

Adnan had another lawyer after Gutierrez. His name was Charles Dorsey and he represented Adnan in the "sentencing phase" of his trial. That is, AFTER the jury had found Adnan guilty of Hae's murder, there's another proceeding where the Prosecution and Defense square off over the length and nature of the sentence that the Judge should impose. The Prosecution and Defense will often submit briefs outlining "mitigating" and "aggravating" factors that they'll ask the Judge to consider in making the sentence less or more harsh.

Mr. Dorsey apparently recommended to Adnan that during his sentencing phase, where he is allowed to make a statement, that he claim it was a crime of passion. The theory behind it is that the Judge would be more inclined to exercise a little leniency if (1) Adnan admitted, after the Jury had already found him guilty of Hae's murder, to having killed her and (2) if Adnan could get the Judge to believe that the crime wasn't really pre-meditated. The rationale is that a Judge (and parole boards, as well) are more likely to take mercy on you if you admit to what you've done rather than continue to deny it. Also, cold-blooded pre-meditated murder is considered the worst kind of murder. It's one thing to be the type of person who, in a moment of passion, makes a horrible decision to murder someone else. It's another thing to be the type of person who coldly and methodically plans out the murder of another and then carries it out.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

If Adnon knows he himself is completely innocent then he knows who did it. It was Jay. How does he know that? Because Jay knew where the body was and said that Adnon and him buried it there. If you know for certain that you didn't bury a body somewhere, but a guy who does know where the body is buried says he buried it with that means you are either insane or the other guy did it. What are the other options?

Adnan has no first-hand evidence that Jay killed Hae. It's one thing to "know" something because you believe you've deduced it. It's another thing to "know" something because you've observed that something happening with one of your senses. As a witness, Adnan is limited to testifying as to things he has a foundation for knowing. Adnan has no basis for "knowing" that Jay killed Hae other than deductive speculation - "well if I didn't do it, and Jay knew where Hae's car was abandoned, then Jay must have done it" - and that's not good enough to put Adnan on the stand because he is an easy target to cross-examination given that he can't even account for his whereabouts on the day Hae was murdered.

[Ken Stone]

Adnan has no first-hand evidence that Jay killed Hae. It's one thing to "know" something because you believe you've deduced it. It's another thing to "know" something because you've observed that something happening with one of your senses. As a witness, Adnan is limited to testifying as to things he has a foundation for knowing. Adnan has no basis for "knowing" that Jay killed Hae other than deductive speculation - "well if I didn't do it, and Jay knew where Hae's car was abandoned, then Jay must have done it" - and that's not good enough to put Adnan on the stand because he is an easy target to cross-examination given that he can't even account for his whereabouts on the day Hae was murdered.

Last night my wife moved our Elf on the Shelf. I didn't see her do it. However it was moved this morning and all the kids were in bed. On a witness stand I couldn't say that I knew my wife moved the Elf on the Shelf because I didn't see her. However I know she did because the kids were in bed.

I understand that Adnon couldn't take the stand and say that Jay did it. But as a guy talking to a reporter it seems like he could. He has never said that Jay did it. In fact when she asks who killed Hae, he just says "I don't know". But he does know. It has him, or Jay, or him and Jay. Either way, he knows. Instead he sort of takes this approach like "Hell, could have been almost anyone. I don't know, man." That makes no sense to me at all.