Did Eddard play a role in the current White Walker/Night's Watch situation?

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

But Ned could have at least warned Robb.

Ned knew that Mance was a true King-beyond-the-Wall who meant to march south, and he knew that desertion was becoming a huge problem, which combined with the threat of Mance and Gared saying there were Others, indicated there was a big problem in the north. He knew that the day was coming when he would have to call his banners to face this threat, yet he didn't warn anybody. He didn't warn his son who he left in charge of the north, and he didn't warn his king who was in charge of the whole realm.

Ned's one of my favourite characters, but he left the north completely unprepared for what was coming.

Did Ned have a foresight to warn him that he would be dying in KL? When he marched South, he left Luwin, Rodrik, Cat with Robb. More than enough to run the day to day affairs. As soon as he leaves, Bran is attacked, Cat Rodrik leave. When he marched, he was the Lord OF Winterfell. If any problem presented itself from wildlings, he would have marched North, and curbstomped Mance Rayder. Mance was thousands of leagues and two years away from the WALL , when NED marched South. You are acting like Mance was knocking at Castle Black gate, when Ned marched for Kings Landing.

[markg171]

Agreed to a degree but a few problems. First the Others might be 'Grumpkins and Snarks' - invoked by a lot of deserters. Second, tangential to that Eddard could have asked Benjen outside PoV. Third Eddard could have warned Robb outside PoV. Fourth we have no certain proof that 4 was considered a lot of deserters - and judging from the betrayal at Craster's Keep, many crows are not keen on being crows.

Don't have the book on me but this could refer to either him dying by the one who passed the sentence, or the fact he accepted the sentence after it was passed - what I certainly don't remember is Eddard feeling a tinge of regret killing him thinking he was right.

Again the problem with PoV we just don't know - it just seems hard to imagine they didn't have one private conversation as brothers during the considerable time they were together at Winterfell.

Personally I think Ned is an insufferable idiot when he is in KL, but in my reading he doesn't do anything particularly wrong in the north. I agree there is room for interpretation, but feel what we know of Ned's honour means he would not have left the North undefended if he thought the Others were a threat - I find it impossible he didn't ask Benjen at any point during their time together.

Well we know that Ned was certainly worried that 4 had happened this year. And the betrayal at Craster's Keep, was after everyone had already fought the wights and knew that the stories were all true. So when they broke their vows, they simply broke them like the deserter that Ned killed did. I'm not sure if we really ever see how long some of those guys had served for before, but I think some of them were at least for many years. Yet they broke when the Others came. So I don't think you can say desertion was a huge problem. It only became one, when the Others came.

The problem is though, is that while Ned dismissed the Others as a threat, he still knew that Mance was a real credible threat, and that the day was coming when he would need to call his banners to defend the north. Yet he didn't warn anybody that he knew it was a true threat. If Robb had known that Ned was preparing to fight Mance, he'd have been a lot more worried when he found Osha and the other wildlings and deserters had deserted Mance and the Watch because of the Others

[markg171]

Did Ned have a foresight to warn him that he would be dying in KL? When he marched South, he left Luwin, Rodrik, Cat with Robb. More than enough to run the day to day affairs. As soon as he leaves, Bran is attacked, Cat Rodrik leave. When he marched, he was the Lord OF Winterfell. If any problem presented itself from wildlings, he would have marched North, and curbstomped Mance Rayder. Mance was thousands of leagues and two years away from the WALL , when NED marched South. You are acting like Mance was knocking at Castle Black gate, when Ned marched for Kings Landing.

Actually IIRC Ned does say that nothing good comes of northmen marching south (in regards to his own father and 200 of his best northmen marching to Aerys and being executed).

I'm not saying that Mance was a current problem, but Ned was certainly aware that things were getting there. Which actually demonstrates itself in that it wasn't even 2 years later when he actually did attack the Wall. So Ned was very up to date in knowing that the problem was about to boil over.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

Actually IIRC Ned does say that nothing good comes of northmen marching south (in regards to his own father and 200 of his best northmen marching to Aerys and being executed).

I'm not saying that Mance was a current problem, but Ned was certainly aware that things were getting there. Which actually demonstrates itself in that it wasn't even 2 years later when he actually did attack the Wall. So Ned was very up to date in knowing that the problem was about to boil over.

One simple question. For how many years have Starks ruled the North? How many Kings Beyond the Wall in that period? How many have succeeded in breaching the Wall and threatnening the North?

When Ned said "Nothing good ever came of a Stark going South" wasn't he refering to Rickard Brandon? When they went to KL, DID THE WILDLINGS ATTACK?

[Hand to King Davos]

I would say that Ned could have done something, but what? He didn't realize that he would die, and Robb was hardly alone. He had Cat, Rodrik and Luwin. Also, prior to becoming the Young Wolf, most of Robb's bannermen didn't really respect him. Remember Greatjon getting his fingers torn off by Grey Wind? Cat and Rodrik would have been more influential, and they were smart enough to realize that Mance was becoming a problem. Also, I got the impression that Ned was thinking more along informal lines of he might need to fight Mance soon. Not necessarily that he would definitely need to fight Mance.

[dagururgf]

If Ned had just told Robb of all the problems that he knew were building in the north

Whilst I think this is a good question for you to bring up, and is interesting to debate, I just fundamentally disagree with 'all the problems building'. The Others had not been seen for 8,000 years, they are a legend. They were being used as an excuse for a deserter who was condemned to death.

If 4 deserters in a year was 40 deserters in a year I would agree that's odd but from what we know about the men of the Nights Watch, 4 in a year seems highly possible. It also seems possible Ned wouldn't let thing slide as his predecessors and may have charged more with desertion (would he be happy about Molestown!?)

wildlings deserting Mance

Do we have any evidence of this? Again, if they were, they would have been more likely to be found by the Watch - and again if they were would Benjen not have told Ned?

I'm not saying that Mance was a current problem, but Ned was certainly aware that things were getting there.

Agree entirely with this thought. Throughout history the north and the Starks have been the defence against the wildlings only if they get passed the wall. There is no account of a Stark going to the wall to protect against a wildling king.

When they went to KL, DID THE WILDLINGS ATTACK?

And how many Northern soldiers did Eddard take south with him, and how many armies of the kings beyond the wall have been defeated by the northern banners?

I agree, Eddard is crap in KL but my reading of that is that he is a fish out of water, rather than a bad ruler. His honour would never have allowed him to leave the North completely undefended from northern threats, and when he left these were minimal.

[JonSnow4President]

Whilst I think this is a good question for you to bring up, and is interesting to debate, I just fundamentally disagree with 'all the problems building'. The Others had not been seen for 8,000 years, they are a legend. They were being used as an excuse for a deserter who was condemned to death.

If 4 deserters in a year was 40 deserters in a year I would agree that's odd but from what we know about the men of the Nights Watch, 4 in a year seems highly possible. It also seems possible Ned wouldn't let thing slide as his predecessors and may have charged more with desertion (would he be happy about Molestown!?)

Do we have any evidence of this? Again, if they were, they would have been more likely to be found by the Watch - and again if they were would Benjen not have told Ned?

Agree entirely with this thought. Throughout history the north and the Starks have been the defence against the wildlings only if they get passed the wall. There is no account of a Stark going to the wall to protect against a wildling king.

And how many Northern soldiers did Eddard take south with him, and how many armies of the kings beyond the wall have been defeated by the northern banners?

I agree, Eddard is crap in KL but my reading of that is that he is a fish out of water, rather than a bad ruler. His honour would never have allowed him to leave the North completely undefended from northern threats, and when he left these were minimal.

And if we're giving him shit for things he can't know, we should give him credit for what he (probably) didn't know. He left an able lord-stand-in and great military commander in Robb, along with the extreme majority of the Northern armies. Hell, for all we know, Robb is better at strategy than Ned, so the North may have been better off.

[dagururgf]

And if we're giving him shit for things he can't know, we should give him credit for what he (probably) didn't know

This.

[ACVG]

I did a quick reread of the beheading scene and we don't actually hear Ned's opinion on how he died.

Bran thought about it. “Can a man still be brave if he’s afraid?” “That is the only time a man can be brave,” his father told him. “Do you understand why I did it?” “He was a wildling,” Bran said. “They carry off women and sell them to the Others.” His lord father smiled. “Old Nan has been telling you stories again. In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night’s Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile.

But we do clearly see what his opinions are about the WW. They only exist in Old Nan's tales.

I'm not sure what Ned could have told anyone, Robb as his heir would've been at every deserter beheading, and likely Ned would've commented to him at the increase.

About Manse, we've obviously seen that Robb is aware of how to call banners and lead armies. The only difference would have been that there would've been ravens from WF to KL, "asking permission" to call them. And depending on the threat Ned might have joined them, who knows maybe Robert too, as he had been itching to participate in one last battle.

[markg171]

And if we're giving him shit for things he can't know, we should give him credit for what he (probably) didn't know. He left an able lord-stand-in and great military commander in Robb, along with the extreme majority of the Northern armies. Hell, for all we know, Robb is better at strategy than Ned, so the North may have been better off.

Except Robb didn't know there was a threat to the north. Hence why he called all his banners when Ned was arrested.

[markg171]

Whilst I think this is a good question for you to bring up, and is interesting to debate, I just fundamentally disagree with 'all the problems building'. The Others had not been seen for 8,000 years, they are a legend. They were being used as an excuse for a deserter who was condemned to death.

If 4 deserters in a year was 40 deserters in a year I would agree that's odd but from what we know about the men of the Nights Watch, 4 in a year seems highly possible. It also seems possible Ned wouldn't let thing slide as his predecessors and may have charged more with desertion (would he be happy about Molestown!?)

Do we have any evidence of this? Again, if they were, they would have been more likely to be found by the Watch - and again if they were would Benjen not have told Ned?

Agree entirely with this thought. Throughout history the north and the Starks have been the defence against the wildlings only if they get passed the wall. There is no account of a Stark going to the wall to protect against a wildling king.

And how many Northern soldiers did Eddard take south with him, and how many armies of the kings beyond the wall have been defeated by the northern banners?

I agree, Eddard is crap in KL but my reading of that is that he is a fish out of water, rather than a bad ruler. His honour would never have allowed him to leave the North completely undefended from northern threats, and when he left these were minimal.

The wildlings who attacked Bran were wildlings from beyond the wall. They weren't there to raid, they were there to escape. And as Jon says, the Watch only has 3 castles manned, there's tons of leagues between defenders on the wall and wildlings can slip by without being seen no problem. So Benjen would have no idea that small groups of wildlings were climbing the wall.

[dagururgf]

The wildlings who attacked Bran were wildlings from beyond the wall.

Which is well after Eddard has left for KL.

[markg171]

I did a quick reread of the beheading scene and we don't actually hear Ned's opinion on how he died.

But we do clearly see what his opinions are about the WW. They only exist in Old Nan's tales.

I'm not sure what Ned could have told anyone, Robb as his heir would've been at every deserter beheading, and likely Ned would've commented to him at the increase.

About Manse, we've obviously seen that Robb is aware of how to call banners and lead armies. The only difference would have been that there would've been ravens from WF to KL, "asking permission" to call them. And depending on the threat Ned might have joined them, who knows maybe Robert too, as he had been itching to participate in one last battle.

It's in Catelyn's chapter (the one right after) that he comments on the deserter dying honourably.

You're second part is something I've been wondering though. As far as we know, Robert has never actually visited the north. Hell his very speech says this as he's astonished that there's snow in summer. So when the king finally came to the north, why not mention that you knew there was a King Beyond the Wall who was a real threat?

[markg171]

One simple question. For how many years have Starks ruled the North? How many Kings Beyond the Wall in that period? How many have succeeded in breaching the Wall and threatnening the North?

When Ned said "Nothing good ever came of a Stark going South" wasn't he refering to Rickard Brandon? When they went to KL, DID THE WILDLINGS ATTACK?

As far as I know, there's been what, like 5 wildling kings that we've heard of? So you'd think that Ned would actually treat Mance as a huge threat as if he's been declared king, that means he has the wildlings behind him.

Remember that the wildlings only follow strength. They wouldn't back Mance as king unless he was actually worthy. So a King Beyond The Wall, is actually a very big deal.

[JonSnow4President]

Except Robb didn't know there was a threat to the north. Hence why he called all his banners when Ned was arrested.

Except there isn't really a valid argument that Ned should have known.

[dagururgf]

So when the king finally came to the north, why not mention that you knew there was a King Beyond the Wall who was a real threat?

Again, apart from his presence, what did Eddard deprive the north when he became hand?

Robb was about 16 and a better military leader. Plus Greajon and Roose (then loyal) Bolton were left there along with the entire northern host.

At the risk of saying you are arguing what is now highly difficult opinion after an interesting initial thought - I don't really see what you think Eddard could have done in the situation...

[Metheos]

There might be a case when it comes to Mance, but not at all with the Others. Gared could have gone back to Castle Black with his information, but instead he tried to escape. The likelihood that he was lying to justify himself was simply too high. Blaming Ned for not looking into what he said seems to me a case of readers judging based on our own greater knowledge rather than what Ned should reasonably conclude from what he knows. It's not like there's a lot of precedence for magical beings in the lifetime of anyone alive. Heck, just look at how flabbergasted everyone at Castle Black is when the wights show up.

I wouldn't presume to speak definitively on the Mance situation until a reread.

[JonSnow4President]

And for the record, Robb did know Mance Rayder existed.

"Robb thought he was a wildling, his sword sworn to Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall"

Source: THE SECOND NON-PROLOUGE PARAGRAPH, Game of Thrones

[ACVG]

It's in Catelyn's chapter (the one right after) that he comments on the deserter dying honourably.

You're second part is something I've been wondering though. As far as we know, Robert has never actually visited the north. Hell his very speech says this as he's astonished that there's snow in summer. So when the king finally came to the north, why not mention that you knew there was a King Beyond the Wall who was a real threat?

“The man died well, I’ll give him that,” Ned said. He had a swatch of oiled leather in one hand. He ran it lightly up the greatsword as he spoke, polishing the metal to a dark glow. “I was glad for Bran’s sake. You would have been proud of Bran.” “I am always proud of Bran,” Catelyn replied,

Got it! Thanks

I don't think he was a real threat. No one knew he had assembled all the wilding clans together. And every other king beyond the wall had been dealt with without southern intervention.

It would probably be an embarrassment to the north if they request help to handle wildlings. Just how it's an embarrassment to the watch when WF gets involved too.

[dagururgf]

There might be a case when it comes to Mance, but not at all with the Others.

Agree with this entirely, anf if there were any cases of a Stark going to the wall to deal with a wildling kin there would be a case for Eddard being negligent.