Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle becomes the Gendry/Arya/(possibly)Aegon?

[arabian]

read my posts carefully:

Just in case you need to extrapolate my meaning even further, I'll expand on it:

1. I'm assuming that the tv show will finish before all the books are published so we may know roughly what is going to happen in them.

2. I'm assuming that If that future seasons contain any plot with a Starkcest (Stark incest) romance that it will not be Jon and Arya, but rather Jon and Sansa considering how different the adaptation already is from the source material aka the books (despite some users vehemently arguing otherwise, I stick with this claim).

3. I assume that the audience would be more comfortable with Sophie and Kit rather then Maisie and Kit in a romance, despite the fact that both actress are/will be adults in season 6 onwards. Current TV Sansa has already taken fArya's storyline this season, and book fArya is nothing more than a PROXY of George's original Winterfell/Arya vision as we know because of the outline.

and finally

4. I'm assuming that if the show does what I wrote above George WOULD NOT follow it, he would continue to write his life's work in the way that HE envisioned it. So if Starkcest is going to happen it will be between Jon and Arya, just like the outline. Because Jon and Sansa in the books has no foundation and is merely a construct of the fans influenced by a myriad of things, but mainly their own wishful thinking, while Jon and Arya have as great a bond as it can be, a bond that can remain a weird sibling one, or change depending on what George intends to do.

Hmm, those are A LOT of assumptions on your part. Since this thread is about the books (a fact I was just reminded of) when you mentioned Jon/Sansa I thought you were speaking of a possibility in the books NOT the TV show.

The thing is that tone matters and despite your awesome user name I won't be continuing this discussion with you since you find yourself unable to respond to me without talking down to me like I am an idiot which I am most assuredly not. It's not worth my time nor the energy I would have to use in order to do so. Perhaps someone else will want to carry forth.

Good day, sir.

[Han Snow]

Aww, you're cute! ;)

Genuinely.

Don't be offended, please.

It seems I exclusively manage to offend Gendry/Arya proponents. Weird.

What we have in common, I reckon, is the love for Arya. With that said, I'm really interested why do you feel that Jon and Sansa can happen in the books, and the textual basis for it, and why do you feel that Jon and Arya don't??? Or why do you feel that even the idea of J/arya is dead? Preferably, also backed with some quotes.

Thanks, and don't take to heart too much the way you perceived I was talking to you earlier. English is not my native language and sometimes it gets the best of me. Sometimes. Though, I admit that I was snarky in that last post of mine. Sorry for that.

[arabian]

I honestly never thought that Jon/Sansa OR Jon/Arya could or would happen in the books honestly. I always thought that it would be Jon/Dany. That just seemed to me the direction that it was always heading towards. The series is called "A Song of Ice and Fire" and Jon Snow is the "Ice" and Danerys Targaryen is the "Fire." And ultimately it will be their song. That's just how I always read it personally.

The only reason I thought of Jon and Sansa is because of what is happening on the show and we know that D&D know the endgame and I figured that if they are maneuvering Sansa towards Jon it could be for a reason. And my mind went there because of all of the ideas in fandom about Jon hooking up with a sister. That is literally the only reason because there is nothing in the text to support it Jon and Sansa (as they are the least close of the siblings).

As for Jon/Arya in the text, I just don't see anything romantic textually there. It's not that I don't see the incestuous stuff in the text in other areas (and considering the time period and age in which GRRM has placed the series, it doesn't bother me) I just never saw it with those two. I can't back it with text as being dead because I have nothing to show it as alive in the first place. For me it's always just been a sibling relationship... it's been about a brother and sister who--in their own way--felt like outsiders: Jon because he was the bastard, Arya because she wasn't a "lady" and so they bonded, they were close because of that. But I never saw it as anything other than a very close sibling bond.

I appreciate the sincere apology.

[Han Snow]

I honestly never thought that Jon/Sansa OR Jon/Arya could or would happen in the books honestly. I always thought that it would be Jon/Dany. That just seemed to me the direction that it was always heading towards. The series is called "A Song of Ice and Fire" and Jon Snow is the "Ice" and Danerys Targaryen is the "Fire." And ultimately it will be their song. That's just how I always read it personally.

Yes, that is pretty much how I felt. I had that notion, that no matter how cliche it seems, that Dany and Jon were mirroring each other, which is true in a way, and that they will be the end couple. While such a thing is not entirely out of the question even now, I changed my view on it quite drastically. Because of the outline.

The outline is very important, no matter what some people say. It gave us George's perspective, his original vision. And while it changed and evolved with subsequent books, that vision is still the skeleton behind the meat of the published story. But the most important thing we got with it was an insight into George's mind concerning this saga.

I was surprised and shocked to see that he intended for Jon and Arya to be the central romance story!!! With Tyrion third wheeling for more drama I presume. I always felt Jon and Arya romance threads were not even worthy of my time, that they were created by some deluded shippers. Despite loving both of the characters to pieces, the thought of them actually being romantic in some future book was ridiculous to me. So as I said. it felt like a punch to my gut to actually read the author's intent that involved such a romance. But the more I thought about it, the more I read and re-read the books, the more it all made sense with the way he wrote those two.

You say:

As for Jon/Arya in the text, I just don't see anything romantic textually there. For me it's always just been a sibling relationship... it's been about a brother and sister who--in their own way--felt like outsiders: Jon because he was the bastard, Arya because she wasn't a "lady" and so they bonded, they were close because of that. But I never saw it as anything other than a very close sibling bond.

Which is somewhat true, and why wouldn't it be? If there was anything overtly romantic right now it would be downright creepy and peadophilic. The last time these two are near each other is when Jon is 14 and Arya 9 y.o.

Jon grinned, reached over, and messed up her hair. Arya flushed. They had always been close...

Jon watched them leave, and Arya watched Jon. His face had grown as still as the pool at the heart of the godswood.

And Arya…he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful. Arya never seemed to fit, no more than he had…yet she could always make Jon smile. He would give anything to be with her now, to muss up her hair once more and watch her make a face, to hear her finish a sentence with him.

She would have given anything if Jon had been here to call her “little sister” and muss her hair.

it was Jon Snow she thought of most. She wished somehow they could come to the Wall before Winterfell, so Jon might muss up her hair and call her “little sister.” She’d tell him, “I missed you,” and he’d say it too at the very same moment, the way they always used to say things together. She would have liked that. She would have liked that better than anything.

She is no older than I am. Something about her made him think of Arya, though they looked nothing at all alike...

...

She reminded him a little of his sister Arya, though Arya was younger and probably skinnier.

“I know where we could go,” Arya said. She still had one brother left. Jon will want me, even if no one else does. He’ll call me “little sister” and muss my hair. It was a long way, though, and she didn’t think she could get there by herself. She hadn’t even been able to reach Riverrun. “We could go to the Wall.”

His heart seemed to stop for a moment. No, that is not possible. She died in King’s Landing, with Father.

“I have no sister.” The words were knives. What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister?

The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart.

"Bring her home, Mance. I saved your son from Melisandre, and now I am about to save four thousand of your free folk. You owe me this one little girl."

He wanted to believe it would be Arya. He wanted to see her face again, to smile at her and muss her hair, to tell her she was safe. She won’t be safe, though. Winterfell is burned and broken and there are no more safe places.

Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

- through use of this particular phrase we know that in the whirlwind of shear shock and feelings that Jon had felt while life fled him, his very last thought was of Arya.

Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile. He used to mess my hair and call me "little sister," she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes.

But don't you find that particular sibling bond a little bit too emphasized after 5 published books? If George abandoned any notion of Jon and Arya's future relationship, wouldn't he let the bond weaken? Wouldn't he stop emphasizing the importance these two have for each other by the time book 5 rolled out? Jon has a love story with Ygritte, gets the hots for Val before getting stabbed (note how he likes his women to be strong, independent, willful and lethal), Arya also has a playful crush, some emerging boy/girl emotions appropriate for her age for Gendry, but despite all that... these two are never far from each other thoughts.

We also seem to disagree on the strength of that close sibling bond. I always thought that it was THE emotional core of this story, their story. Even before the outline leaked I felt that George wanted us to see their bond as something more than just a conventional sibling love. I felt... and I still feel that when these two finally reunite that it will be something incredibly special. Romance or no romance, and no matter who the endgame pairings are, it will be special.

Anyway, with the outline out I knew that I was wrong before. It finally made sense. I regretted not seeing it earlier and being so dismissive of people pointing in that direction.

Lastly:

arabian, on 27 May 2015 - 10:43 PM, said:

The series is called "A Song of Ice and Fire" and Jon Snow is the "Ice" and Danerys Targaryen is the "Fire." And ultimately it will be their song.

This is probably a misconception. If Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents, he already is both ICE and FIRE.

From Dany HOTU vision:

He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.

:cheers:

[sweetsunray]

I think Jon/Arya and Gendry/Arya make for an interesting comparison actually

Just objectively speaking, both Jon and Gendry abandon Arya's pack:

Jon leaving her pack:
* he's the first to leave her pack, before anybody else, for an all male pack, albeit a for life celibate one, sworn in to protect the realm - the brotherhood of the NIght's Watch and not the Wolves.
* she's to leave for King's Landing with her sister and father
* they part on good terms, say goodbye to each other
* he has a gift made for her in the smithy: Needle
* the result: she always remembers him fondly, and if she could have she would have reunited with him

Gendry leaving her pack:
* he's the last to leave her pack, for an all male pack, but not a celibate one, sworn in to protect the realm - the brotherhood without banners, and not the Wolves
* she's to leave for RR or Twins to reunite with her brother and mother (by then she does not fear her brother and mother not accepting her back into their pack anymore)
* they don't part on good terms: she basically curses him when he tries to apologize to her (and probably wishes to explain), she ignores him the last days with the BwB, and she runs off
* he's a smith but he doesn't give her a parting gift for the prior observation
* the result: when she thinks of him, she's angry with him, and tells herself to not think of him anymore, which she doesn't; and if she could have reunited with him, but she didn't

And I'll just throw in Hot Pie leaving her pack as well:
* he's the second to leave her pack, for a new family and to cook at an inn
* she's to leave for RR eventually to reunite with her brother and mother (although she fears they may not want her)
* they part on good terms, as friends: she allows him to explain his choice, she apologizes for beating him up back in the days and breaking his nose
* Hot Pie want to kiss her hand when they part, but she reminds him she's no Lady - he's Hot Pie and she's Arry
* the result: when she thinks of him, she misses him more than she expected it, but Harwin makes up for it; she's not angry with him. She never thinks of him anymore.

The interesting thing is that while both men leave her, she responds completely opposite to the leaving decision, even though it happens about or over a year apart, and imo influences the result in still allowing herself to think of the man or not.

One could argue very symplistically - that's because she loves Jon, but not Gendry (who's just a friend) and if she did start to have feelings for the latter, she's over that puppy-love

From a pragmatic view though: Arya has no true rational argument to be angry with either of them to leave her pack. Both Jon and Gendry have the right to make a decision about their future life and who they fight for. Jon doesn't want to always remain a bastard in the shadow of his brother, he wants to do something heroic on his own. Gendry doesn't want to remain a blacksmith/armorer smith; he wants to be a warrior (note how he's planning to make his own armor, starting with the helmet and even chooses a sigil and plans to make a sword next for himself) and do something heroic on his own. If Arya were to regard them leaving rationally, she would not take the leaving as a personal slight or abandonment. Usually people can take a goodbye from someone more objectively, the less involved they are, the less romantic their (subconscious) feelings are. So, I conclude that Arya responds rational to Jon leaving the pack, but completely irrational to Gendry leaving the pack.

There are reasons that support her rational response to Jon leaving her:
* she regards Jon as her older brother. Even if he's physically leaving her and she were never to see him again, he will always remain part of her pack, because she thinks of him as blood. Of course she misses him, especially because he was her favourite brother, who also understood and accepted her for who she was the most. Her affection for him, her missing him and not resenting him for leaving her is completely normal and fits that of her regarding and loving him as a favorite brother.
* she's leaving for King's Landing. She's leaving the pack as well. WF is her home, so she could expect to visit or return there one day, and Jon might visit WF too one day.
* she never even thinks in terms of Jon leaving her pack

With Gendry the arguments for her irrational response gets blurred by those arguing against it:
* Her irrational response to Gendry leaving her is one of the clearest arguments against 'he's just a friend'. If he was, she would respond more rational to the parting. Sure, she's hurt too by Hot Pie leaving her pack, but she at least says goodbye to him. If Gendry was just a friend, and she was still sad and hurt about it, she would have at least parted ways with him, without cursing him. She doesn't say "Why should I care if you get hanged/die in the wilderness/burned in the oven" to either Jon (her brother) and Hot Pie (her friend), because she doesn't see Gendry as either a brother or a friend.
* She does not adopt him as an older brother either: she points that out at the Peach. Because he isn't her brother, Gendry leaving her has a completely different impact on her when he leaves her than when Jon leaves her. He may be forever lost to her. She would not only not ever see him again anymore, but the tie could be forever broken. (same goes for Hot Pie, but she's not angry with him - she simply misses him and it makes her sad she'll never see him again)
* She's returning to her family pack to RR and North, and the chance of ever returning to the Riverland woods are naught.
* With her thinking in pack-terms and him not being her brother it becomes clear that she somehow has this notion that he will always be there, or at least wants him to be always there. She simply does not want to part with him at all, which would mean for him to remain a servant and blacksmith all of his life.
* One could argue that Gendry leaving her is the last drop and he pays for all the leaving done before that, but Arya is otherwise very much able to be fair, such as who gets to be on her death-prayer list. She never puts someone on it for the crimes done by someone else, nor if she doesn't know the name (she likes to put the Freys on the list, but she has no idea who did the killing, so she doesn't put any of them on it, not even Lord Walder Frey). If she can be rational and fair about who gets on her death wish list, then why the hell would she be irrationally angry with Gendry for leaving her because so many before him left her?

* Naturally, when you think of someone who's not family to always be there with you, you project the same feelings onto the other. You expect them to feel/think/hope something similar. And it hurts like hell when they make a decision that contradicts it. It becomes deeply personal, and almost impossible to consider it in a rational way - other than rejection. This is why she cannot but regard it in an irrational manner. (Of course, that does not mean that Gendry didn't want to be around her, but he's older, and on the brink of becoming a man, and has a more realistic view on the fact that if he goes with her to her brother, he'll actually be more mentally separated from her through status with less of a future, than if he were to choose the BwB. He knows that if he ever wants a chance with her, he should not be blacksmithing for her brother)

So we now come to her choices and later thoughts:

- she wants to get to Jon, and asks for the possibility with the captain of the ship, but she doesn't attempt to get back to Gendry

- For one she always wanted to go home, and she never intended to remain with the BwB, and remaining in the war torn Riverlands would just be silly for her own survival really.

- When Arya feels rejected, her response is to reject the other in return: and she rejects him so much to the perceived rejection of her, that she doesn't even allow him to explain or apologize or part in any good feeling (+ she doesn't want to say goodbye to him).

- Still despite her rejection of Gendry and her choice to go to Braavos, she remains angry with him when she thinks of him

So, does that mean not thinking of him anymore means she's over him? Perhaps, but just as well not. She has a new life, one that involves forgetting who she is and was and her past. If you're going to cling to memories in those circumstances, at least you're going to cling to the less painful memories - and Jon is not painful. Not thinking of someone =/= being over them imo. When you're over someone, you can think of them once in a while, but always in a rational manner (regardless whether you think ill or well of them). When you're not over someone, you can't think of them in a rational manner, without the pain, anger and hurt, and you'll avoid thinking of them altogether.

[arabian]

To Han Solo: As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I think that the reason Jon/Arya stuff is in there like that (and it was more pronounced in the earlier books) is because of the original outline (and, I'm a writer, trust me you can and DO stray from original outlines) is because he just didn't weed all of the stuff out of there like that. But regardless all of the stuff you pointed out I honestly read as, yes, a close sibling bond. I personally have a VERY close sibling bond with both my sister and my brother and at different points in my life I've been separated from them for long periods of time and have missed them intensely (obviously it hasn't been a case of separated by war and possible death and such), but still I have been separated by whole continents and more than half a world. And I have missed them intently and thought about them A LOT. And I am separated from my brother right now, and, yes I do compare him to people who look like them, and I do find myself missing him a lot and my sister and I go into tangents sometimes just go on and on talking about him. Because siblings that close DO act and feel that way... so it NEVER struck me as ANYTHING other than really close siblings.

I guess one could see the whole Jon as Fire and Ice from Lyanna and Rhaegar too, but Danerys is SUCH a central figure (to me she's always seemed like the lead female, while Jon is the lead male) that's why I saw Jon as the ice (what with being on the Wall in the North) and Dany being the Fire what with the dragons and all that. That's just how I saw it.

As for the outline, I just think it was just a broad outline that changed and grew and morphed into other things. Like I said, I'm a writer and what you originally envision is not always (more often than not) the end product... especially with something AS massive as ASOIAF. There are so many major characters, so many huge elements missing from that outline that to take that as key and as an imprint of the "PLAN" just doesn't work for me personally.

[sweetsunray]

To Han Solo: As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I think that the reason Jon/Arya stuff is in there like that (and it was more pronounced in the earlier books) is because of the original outline (and, I'm a writer, trust me you can and DO stray from original outlines) is because he just didn't weed all of the stuff out of there like that. But regardless all of the stuff you pointed out I honestly read as, yes, a close sibling bond. I personally have a VERY close sibling bond with both my sister and my brother and at different points in my life I've been separated from them for long periods of time and have missed them intensely (obviously it hasn't been a case of separated by war and possible death and such), but still I have been separated by whole continents and more than half a world. And I have missed them intently and thought about them A LOT. And I am separated from my brother right now, and, yes I do compare him to people who look like them, and I do find myself missing him a lot and my sister and I go into tangents sometimes just go on and on talking about him. Because siblings that close DO act and feel that way... so it NEVER struck me as ANYTHING other than really close siblings.

I guess one could see the whole Jon as Fire and Ice from Lyanna and Rhaegar too, but Danerys is SUCH a central figure (to me she's always seemed like the lead female, while Jon is the lead male) that's why I saw Jon as the ice (what with being on the Wall in the North) and Dany being the Fire what with the dragons and all that. That's just how I saw it.

As for the outline, I just think it was just a broad outline that changed and grew and morphed into other things. Like I said, I'm a writer and what you originally envision is not always (more often than not) the end product... especially with something AS massive as ASOIAF. There are so many major characters, so many huge elements missing from that outline that to take that as key and as an imprint of the "PLAN" just doesn't work for me personally.

I agree with writing being way more fluid than an original outline. Hell aGoT strays a lot of the original outline already. And GRRM himself has said that most of his writing ideas change and form while writing. Writing is like that for me too. Writing can be magical in that sense to me. Sometimes you just make some seemingly arbitrary choices between characters suddenly appearing in the life of the other, and then later it turned out the best choice, because it has interesting plot consequences going everywhere that you didn't think of at the moment of choice, and you're left wondering - hmm, did I subconscioiusly knew already that it would open this and that door. And then you smile and think - someone reading this must have thought I had it all thought out beforehand... and yet, you didn't. It was just some necessary choice between that one or that character/food/place etc at that moment as you're trying to write a chapter. And sometimes, you start with a plan beforehand and you try to write it, but it just seems forced and the characters seem to have ideas about it all on their own, and suddenly start acting and talking in a way that puts a wrench in it. Good writing, allows for the characters to take the writer by the hand (and is the type of writing I find the most exhilerating myself). And GRRM has always said he likes to write like that. He's still coming up with new subplots and ideas even recently, and he said the characters themselves gave him the idea.

The Gendry-Arya interactions imo came about imo through the fluid type of writing. He needed to choose who gets to flee along with Arya. You write in new characters for it, but also put a character in the company that is alway familiar. And then they start to interact more and more and suddenly the characters start to decide for you, rather than you as writer for them, and you change the planned outline to incorporate the new developments.

Does that mean Jon/Arya is out? Not necessarily. Does that mean Jon/Arya is definitely in? Not necessarily.

[Han Snow]

To Han Solo: As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I think that the reason Jon/Arya stuff is in there like that (and it was more pronounced in the earlier books) is because of the original outline (and, I'm a writer, trust me you can and DO stray from original outlines) is because he just didn't weed all of the stuff out of there like that.

Yes, but why would George still do that in book 5 that he wrote 30 years after he had the initial idea? Why would Jon's last thought be of Arya? And so on...

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about how we see this relationship and the way we feel it's going to change or not. For now I stand with what I wrote in my last post. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, It's certainly an option.

p.s. regarding the outline; sure that one tomato plant grew into a wonderful garden filled with all kind of different fruits and veggies, but it doesn't mean that the tomato plant is not there, that the fruit it bears is not going to end up on the plate of its gardener. George has veered significantly off course with his story, but he also said time and again that the destination is/was firmly in place and he's just taking the longer route to get there. Central romance seems like the kind of stuff that could well be a part of that destination, a part of that tomato soup. And the plant is right there in the garden, still bearing fruit...

;)

[Monoman32]

read my posts carefully:

Just in case you need to extrapolate my meaning even further, I'll expand on it:

1. I'm assuming that the tv show will finish before all the books are published so we may know roughly what is going to happen in them.

2. I'm assuming that If that future seasons contain any plot with a Starkcest (Stark incest) romance that it will not be Jon and Arya, but rather Jon and Sansa considering how different the adaptation already is from the source material aka the books (despite some users vehemently arguing otherwise, I stick with this claim).

3. I assume that the audience would be more comfortable with Sophie and Kit rather then Maisie and Kit in a romance, despite the fact that both actress are/will be adults in season 6 onwards. Current TV Sansa has already taken fArya's storyline this season, and book fArya is nothing more than a PROXY of George's original Winterfell/Arya vision as we know because of the outline.

and finally

4. I'm assuming that if the show does what I wrote above George WOULD NOT follow it, he would continue to write his life's work in the way that HE envisioned it. So if Starkcest is going to happen it will be between Jon and Arya, just like the outline. Because Jon and Sansa in the books has no foundation and is merely a construct of the fans influenced by a myriad of things, but mainly their own wishful thinking, while Jon and Arya have as great a bond as it can be, a bond that can remain a weird sibling one, or change depending on what George intends to do.

Some other user argued the obviousness of it, or rather lack of it, not me. But my position on Gendry and Arya is the same as it is, for example, for Jaime and Cersei. Sure, something is there, sure, it will get some kind of closure. No, I don't believe that it will necessarily be a good one. Why? Because I don't see those people as some kind of great loves of their lives. For Jaime that is Brienne, for Arya no one, but if it has to be someone, there is way more chance for it to be Jon than anyone else.

You know what they say about assumptions...

[twikee]

but i do think arya would still be jon snow's love interest, and him her

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Jon/Dany /Aegon triangle. Arya is too young . Sansa /Aegon /Dany .