If Aegon was smart and starved king Harren out.........

[the storm king returns]

I think you're overestimating the dragons. They can win a battle almost single-handed, but they can't win the war single-handed. Dragons can be killed in battle, and the chances are even greater if they attack without being reinforced by an army, which you're suggesting Aegon should have done. And as people here more knowledgeable on the subject as I have stated why Harrenhal isn't that good of a castle. Yeah, it's big. But it's too big. And what do you mean 'literally impossible to take unless you have dragons'? You're the one suggesting that Aegon shouldn't have used his dragons to take it.

Im saying thats why its a perfect castle for Aegon because no other lord or King could ever hope to take it because they do not have dragons.......... and I know dragons can be killed I didnt say otherwise or suggested that Aegon go to SE or CR alone. If all three dragons attacked a castle at once it would be demolished with 0 Dragon casualties unless thru some miracle they hit the Dragon in the eye with a scorpion which isnt gonna happen especially in a night time raid.

[the storm king returns]

Aegon had three nukes let a couple off and watch your opposition bend the knee your targets dont matter as long as they have huge impact. SE, CR, WF, Eyrie.... any of these castles destroyed would have same impact. Aegon won the war because of his dragons and the fear they brought all opposition would bene the knee rather then be burned to death. As i Saïd before the IB would have givin King Harren up with out a second thought.

[The Dragons Hand]

Aegon: Remember that gigantic castle in the Riverlands? I bathed it black flames, incinerating Harren and his sons. Also, the field of fire, where my sisters and I burnt men by the thousands. This is the power I hold, incur my wrath and it will be turned upon you and nothing will remain but the ashes. Do you understand me, mongrel? Do NOT wake the dragon.

Seems like a pretty clear message of "I am not to be fucked with."

[TimJames]

Aegon: Remember that gigantic castle in the Riverlands? I bathed it black flames, incinerating Harren and his sons. Also, the field of fire, where my sisters and I burnt men by the thousands. This is the power I hold, incur my wrath and it will be turned upon you and nothing will remain but the ashes. Do you understand me, mongrel? Do NOT wake the dragon.

Seems like a pretty clear message of "I am not to be fucked with."

Buring Casterly Rock or Winterfell or The Eerie (or all three) would have the same message and still allow Ageon to have the best castle in the world.

[Robinvanpersie]

Aegon needed a HQ which was within easy reach of his power base (Dragonstone). The mouth of the Blackwater Rush is perfect for that. Harranhall is too far away.

Also, if you can destroy the mightiest castle in the realm, you would. It sends a message to the other castles.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Buring Casterly Rock or Winterfell or The Eerie (or all three) would have the same message and still allow Ageon to have the best castle in the world.

Why have a castle built by another King when you can build yourself the greatest city in Westeros?

That is what both Harren and Aegon did, show that they could create excellence not just take it. Kings Landing and the Crownlands is a more impressive statement than Harrenhal, just like creating Alexandria was far more impressive than simply taking the heavily fortified Gaza and making it Alexandrs home.

[the storm king returns]

The Red Keep is a small fortress that can be taken relativly easy if you have a decent size army, and not to mention if someone has a good sized fleet KL falls and who ever take KL kills all of your family....... OR you could have this huge castle that if your enemy marched one million men up to your castle they wouldnt have breached the walls of Harrenhal , what sounds like a better HQ to you? I mean come on the Red Keep is a jk ill name off several stronger castles just off the top of my head.

WF, Dreadfort, Eyrie, Runestone, Rivverrunn, Harrenhal, Highgarden, SE, Sunspear, lord Yronwoods castle, Dragonstone, ETC. You are King of Westeros and your castle would fall to a small army this makes no sense.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Harrenhal was a new wonder made by man. Like, worlds fair eiffel tower chicago skyscraper stuff. Even melted by the greatest dragon ever known it s still impressive. The damaged areas (outer walls at least) should be refurbished and it well inhabited as the new center of Westeros.

[PrinceHenryris]

^True, but really only to those who saw it, and the castle caused an awful lot of grief over the years, what with the whole blood curse and all.

I disagree.

Words and legends spread. Often, they get exaggerated. Leaving Harrenal standing was both a reminder, and a propaganda tool.

[Poodle Pup From Astapor]

The Red Keep is a small fortress that can be taken relativly easy if you have a decent size army, and not to mention if someone has a good sized fleet KL falls and who ever take KL kills all of your family....... OR you could have this huge castle that if your enemy marched one million men up to your castle they wouldnt have breached the walls of Harrenhal , what sounds like a better HQ to you? I mean come on the Red Keep is a jk ill name off several stronger castles just off the top of my head.

WF, Dreadfort, Eyrie, Runestone, Rivverrunn, Harrenhal, Highgarden, SE, Sunspear, lord Yronwoods castle, Dragonstone, ETC. You are King of Westeros and your castle would fall to a small army this makes no sense.

I don't think so. It's smaller than Winterfell, but Red Keep is a pretty big castle with huge walls on top of a tall hill. Good luck taking it. If you try to storm it, and it's properly defended, it will be a bloodbath.

You would have to take it the same way you would have to take Harrenhal, by starving it or finding some traitors inside. But there's a big added benefit that you don't need as many men to defend it as you would in Harrenhal, you don't need to store as much food, and it's all easier to supervise. It's also in a much better location for trade and travel, and you can keep your navy nearby.

By the way, Eyrie is a joke. That's not to say that Bloody Gate or Gates of the Moon are a joke. But Eyrie itself is a castle with only 1 narrow road out of it, which also isn't usable during winter, and the castle itself is freezing during winter. All you need to do is put 100 men in the right spot on the road and keep the defenders inside the castle until they all die. You don't even need to keep them there full time, only during summer. Better yet, send some stonemasons and destroy a portion of road and forget all about Eyrie.

Eyrie can't be taken by force, but the same can be said about some ship on the bottom of an ocean. No one would ever try to take it. What's the point? It's completely impractical as the center of administration, because it takes so long for people to get up and down, and it's unusable during winter. Eyrie is the other super expensive Westerosi castle that's even less practical than Harrenhal.

[TimJames]

Why have a castle built by another King when you can build yourself the greatest city in Westeros?

That is what both Harren and Aegon did, show that they could create excellence not just take it. Kings Landing and the Crownlands is a more impressive statement than Harrenhal, just like creating Alexandria was far more impressive than simply taking the heavily fortified Gaza and making it Alexandrs home.

The Red Keep is not a better castle than Harrenhal.

What Ageon did was the equivalent of tearing down the Coliseum of Rome and deciding to build the wrigley field in its place. While the latter is still impressive on its own, destroying the former is just a tragic waste.

There's no reason he couldn't have both a complete Harrenhal AND a giant city at the mouth of Blackwater Bay.

[EastTymor]

The Red Keep is not a better castle than Harrenhal.

What Ageon did was the equivalent of tearing down the Coliseum of Rome and deciding to build the wrigley field in its place. While the latter is still impressive on its own, destroying the former is just a tragic waste.

There's no reason he couldn't have both a complete Harrenhal AND a giant city at the mouth of Blackwater Bay.

Define "better"

For most people it is not synonymous with bigger, which is really all that Harrenhal has going for it.

[RSMITTY7640]

Yea i always found the Eyrie as being a great castle humorous. Why even assult it? Just destroy the other great houses and leave the the Eyrie alone

I don't think so. It's smaller than Winterfell, but Red Keep is a pretty big castle with huge walls on top of a tall hill. Good luck taking it. If you try to storm it, and it's properly defended, it will be a bloodbath.

You would have to take it the same way you would have to take Harrenhal, by starving it or finding some traitors inside. But there's a big added benefit that you don't need as many men to defend it as you would in Harrenhal, you don't need to store as much food, and it's all easier to supervise. It's also in a much better location for trade and travel, and you can keep your navy nearby.

By the way, Eyrie is a joke. That's not to say that Bloody Gate or Gates of the Moon are a joke. But Eyrie itself is a castle with only 1 narrow road out of it, which also isn't usable during winter, and the castle itself is freezing during winter. All you need to do is put 100 men in the right spot on the road and keep the defenders inside the castle until they all die. You don't even need to keep them there full time, only during summer. Better yet, send some stonemasons and destroy a portion of road and forget all about Eyrie.

Eyrie can't be taken by force, but the same can be said about some ship on the bottom of an ocean. No one would ever try to take it. What's the point? It's completely impractical as the center of administration, because it takes so long for people to get up and down, and it's unusable during winter. Eyrie is the other super expensive Westerosi castle that's even less practical than Harrenhal.

[TimJames]

Define "better"

For most people it is not synonymous with bigger, which is really all that Harrenhal has going for it.

Quality of resources? Harrenhal is made of the best building materials in the continent (Weirwood planks being one example).

Location? Harrenhal is in the middle of a river valley: doesn't get much better for agriculture than that. Plus Harrenhal is in a location that is within easy reach of every region, and is inland enough to prevent naval landing invasions, and is next to a lake which not only provides fishing but also holds religious significance to followers of the Old Gods, AND it is also next to a river and therefore given access to oceanic trade.

Harrenhal was an architectural wonder of the world.

All of that is MUCH better that the squalor cesspool called Kings Landing.

[TheSovereignGrave]

Quality of resources? Harrenhal is made of the best building materials in the continent (Weirwood planks being one example).

Location? Harrenhal is in the middle of a river valley: doesn't get much better for agriculture than that. Plus Harrenhal is in a location that is within easy reach of every region, and is inland enough to prevent naval landing invasions, and is next to a lake which not only provides fishing but also holds religious significance to followers of the Old Gods, AND it is also next to a river and therefore given access to oceanic trade.

Harrenhal was an architectural wonder of the world.

All of that is MUCH better that the squalor cesspool called Kings Landing.

Why would anyone really rare about the religious significance that the Isle of Faces holds to the followers of the First Men? There's only one House I can think of in the South that still follows them, and either way they're the minority in Westeros. And you probably shouldn't bring up the religious importance of the location when the castle's construction involved cutting down ancient weirwood trees.

And as for trade, you can't use that excuse when King's Landing is in an arguably better position. Yeah you can sail all the way up the Blackwater and the God's Eye river and into the God's Eye. Or you could just stop at the town at the mouth of Blackwater Rush.

Cesspool? Oh no, there's poor people living there! You can bet that if Harrenhal was made the capital it'd have all those poor people and it'd be a 'cesspool' as you put it too.

[TimJames]

Why would anyone really rare about the religious significance that the Isle of Faces holds to the followers of the First Men? There's only one House I can think of in the South that still follows them, and either way they're the minority in Westeros. And you probably shouldn't bring up the religious importance of the location when the castle's construction involved cutting down ancient weirwood trees.

And as for trade, you can't use that excuse when King's Landing is in an arguably better position. Yeah you can sail all the way up the Blackwater and the God's Eye river and into the God's Eye. Or you could just stop at the town at the mouth of Blackwater Rush.

Cesspool? Oh no, there's poor people living there! You can bet that if Harrenhal was made the capital it'd have all those poor people and it'd be a 'cesspool' as you put it too.

First off, there is no reason at all why Ageon couldn't have both. He could have kept Harrenhal around as a Capitol and build Kings Landing as a port.

Now that that has been said, here are the reasons why Harrenhal is better.

Kings Landing is only a good trading location if you want to trade with people in the Narrow Sea. If you want to trade with people in the Sunset Sea it is a shitty location. If two merchants in Lannisport were shipping overland, one to Harrenhal and one to KingsLanding, guess which one will get there faster? Round two, this time the two merchants are in Riverrun.

Thirdly, if Harrenhal was the Capitol than the poor people wouldn't have lived there. They would have lived in Harroway. But Kings Landing (which if planned correctly could have been slum-free city like Oldtown) just brings us to the root of why Ageon burned this castle.

Ageon wasn't a nation builder. He was the type of person who wanted power but couldn't be bothered to actually use it for constructive purposes.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Kings Landing is only a good trading location if you want to trade with people in the Narrow Sea. If you want to trade with people in the Sunset Sea it is a shitty location.

There are no kingdoms in the Sunset Sea, it is just an empty sea(so far) whereas there is the Nine Free cities and other kingdoms of Essos on the Narrow sea.

If two merchants in Lannisport were shipping overland, one to Harrenhal and one to KingsLanding, guess which one will get there faster? Round two, this time the two merchants are in Riverrun.

Actually you are probably wrong about this. The Gold road from Lannisport to Kings Landing is a shorter distance than the River road to Harrenhal. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/e/e7/Map_of_westeros.jpg

[TheSovereignGrave]

First off, there is no reason at all why Ageon couldn't have both. He could have kept Harrenhal around as a Capitol and build Kings Landing as a port.

Now that that has been said, here are the reasons why Harrenhal is better.

Kings Landing is only a good trading location if you want to trade with people in the Narrow Sea. If you want to trade with people in the Sunset Sea it is a shitty location. If two merchants in Lannisport were shipping overland, one to Harrenhal and one to KingsLanding, guess which one will get there faster? Round two, this time the two merchants are in Riverrun.

Thirdly, if Harrenhal was the Capitol than the poor people wouldn't have lived there. They would have lived in Harroway. But Kings Landing (which if planned correctly could have been slum-free city like Oldtown) just brings us to the root of why Ageon burned this castle.

Ageon wasn't a nation builder. He was the type of person who wanted power but couldn't be bothered to actually use it for constructive purposes.

I think you're forgetting what is probably the most important thing here: Harrenhal is just far too large a castle. Bigger is not always better. Look through the thread, people have mentioned this several times and have given rather good reasons for it.

[EastTymor]

Quality of resources? Harrenhal is made of the best building materials in the continent (Weirwood planks being one example).

Location? Harrenhal is in the middle of a river valley: doesn't get much better for agriculture than that. Plus Harrenhal is in a location that is within easy reach of every region, and is inland enough to prevent naval landing invasions, and is next to a lake which not only provides fishing but also holds religious significance to followers of the Old Gods, AND it is also next to a river and therefore given access to oceanic trade.

Harrenhal was an architectural wonder of the world.

All of that is MUCH better that the squalor cesspool called Kings Landing.

What good are weirwood planks? The important bits of a castle are the walls and towers- which are made in stone for both Harrenhal and King's Landing- and the gates / portcullis- which are going to be oak and iron for both Harrenhal and King's Landing.

Land travel is considerably slower (and for freight, vastly more expensive) than sea travel. Economically speaking, you want a port. If you're going to be king of Westeros, you're going to have naval superiority.

King's Landing can also fish.

Aegon did not follow the Old Gods.

Rivers only flow one way. Its much harder to engage in oceangoing trade if you have to sail along a river first than if you are on the ocean.

Yes, Harrenhal was impressive. Now its an indefensible mound of slag.

King's Landing may be a cesspool. It is also the largest city on the continent and an economic dynamo. All of which is beside the point, because the only apt comparison is between Harrenhal and the Red Keep.

Finally, keep in mind which castle was passed around like a bong at a Wiz Khalifa concert during the Wo5K and which castle never fell.

[TimJames]

Actually, the Red Keep DID fall. Jamie killed Aerys literally milliseconds before rebel troops burst in (that's why Jamie couldn't wipe his fingerprints off the hilt of his sword and put it in the Kings hand).

On the subject of siege, Kings Landing is made vulnerable by its costal location. If the Capitol was in Harrenhal than Stannis wouldn't have been able to sail that far up the Blackwater.

While an overland route is slow, it is still not as slow as a sailor in Lannisport having to sail around the entire continent just to get to Kings Landing (where as a canal could probably have been built connecting Ironman bay with the Trident.

And most important of all, Ageon could have had both!