Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Cavendish

Sansa is not a Stark

Recommended Posts

No, ultimately it was Cersei's fault, she wanted the Direwolves dead.

People to blame in order of their contribution.

  1. Cersei
  2. Joffrey
  3. King Bob
  4. Eddard
  5. Renley
  6. Society
  7. Arya
  8. Sansa
  9. and last Micah

Hi Lykos! :)

Just curious, why do you feel Mycah holds blame? I feel he's the only one completely innocent in this mess so I wanted to hear a different perspective.

Blame the loss of her wolf and the death of Mycah on: Cersei, Joff, Robert and Arya; Sansa's action had no impact on her loosing Lady, she tried to put a neutral spin on a situation that Arya and Joffry put her in.

If Nymeria was there Cersei would have her killed, so she punished the Starks by having Lady killed and what hurt Sansa the most her dad did the deed.

On the bolded do you really think so? That's so sad. It's been a while since I've read and I remember Sansa being upset with everyone but I don't recall anything specific with Ned regarding Lady. What's most tragic for me is I believe Ned did the deed because he loves Sansa, so for their last days together to be tainted by misunderstanding from different perspectives of life experiences is tragic.

(This next part is not directed at you Grail King, it's just something that occurred to me from reading the thread.)

I feel there are two conflicting opinions recently. One is blaming Ned for Lady's death and the other is that Sansa saved Arya from a dangerous punishment. I can not reconcile these. If Ned could not save Arya from being maimed or killed (which would have never happened) how was Ned supposed to save a wolf?

Robert says it's a crime to lie before the king. Sansa says, I don't remember, because that's the truth. She was drunk, traumatized, and a couple of days have already passed

But the chapter was from Sansa's point of view so I don't think that argument works, she knows what happened. We received Sansa's impressions of the event and what Joff did was awful from her own eyes. How Sansa personally feels about it all is a different, and fluid, matter.

I don't think that Sansa was concerned as much about Joffrey liking her as rather smoothing a very dangerous situation for her sister over. Sansa cared a lot about courtly manners, so she knew what it meant to injure (Arya beat Joffrey's back of the head bloody and didn't stop Nymeria biting him) and insult (throwing Lion's Tooth into the river) the crown prince. Sansa had to try to save Joffrey's face in order to avert punishment, but that was made almost impossible by Renley's behaviour, a member of the small council who should have helped mediating instead of emphasising the insult.

I don't know I interpret that differently. I think Sansa was just too scared to even consider all of this. If she was so worried about her sister being in danger she had four days to discuss it with her father, if she even realized there would be a trial. I don't think Sansa expected all of this drama to this extent and she was blindsided.

Regardless, supposing she was attempting to smooth things over, I feel it simply was not Sansa's decision to make on her own on Arya's behalf at Arya's trial. Arya and Ned both wanted Sansa to tell the truth and it was their decision to make, come what may.

That Joffrey as she herself were slightly drunk and Joffrey mistook the practicing of Arya and Mycah as an attack and gallantly tried to save Arya, the damsel in distress.

Oh now, no Joff defending! He knew very well what was going on, Arya and Sansa told him, but the drinking brought out his sadistic tendencies. This is what Sansa thought when it started "...Joffrey was in no mood to listen. The wine had made him wild..."

At the same time I feel he was controllable, if an adult had been present he would absolutely not have behaved that way. He knew it was wrong that's why he lied at the trial.

Lykos said: Also, remember that it didn't help Dunk in any way that he was right and asked to help by Egg, when he beat up Aerion. And he had the brother of the accuser as witness.

I feel the king wanted to hear the truth about what happened here - because - he's not Targaryen, it involved children, it involved highborn children, it involved his Hand's child, it involved his best friend's child, he knows his son is sadistic, he knows his son was not hurt in comparison to his story....

It's shown by the fact the king absolutely refused to punish Arya even without any supporting testimony.

As people have mentioned the price for striking a prince (regardless of whether he is a turd or not) is losing a hand at a minimum.

No, that's not quite right in this case. This passage from Jaime explains it.

Ned Stark’s daughter had run off after her wolf savaged Joff, you’ll recall. My sister wanted the girl to lose a hand. The old penalty, for striking one of the blood royal. Robert told her she was cruel and mad. They fought for half the night... well, Cersei fought, and Robert drank

First Jaime, and who would know better than a member of the Kingsguard, says it's the old penalty... which we can surmise its an old Targaryen law that's no longer used. But, and most important, it's ultimately the kings decision and he refused Cersei the maiming telling her she was mad and cruel. Robert also later refused Cersei any form of punishment for Arya at the trial.

In addition Tyrion struck Joff twice without punishment. Once when Joff was the crowned prince in front of his sworn sword. Again when Joff was king in front of the Kingsguard.

AllOfTheHours said: For the record, I don't blame Arya, but Arya blames herself in GoT right after Lady's death. She admits that she hated Joffrey and Cersei and Sansa, but she hated herself most. She asked Mycah to play with her. The whole fight started because Joffrey saw a lowly commoner like Mycah beating up and hurting a highborn lady like Arya (which is a crime and undermines the entire class/feudal system in Westeros). So he wanted to punish Mycah to impress Sansa/feel powerful (going back to the fact that Joffrey is a turd). If Arya had never asked Mycah to play at swords with her, none of this would ever have happened.

I know that here you are discussing Arya's feelings of guilt over the incident... but the way the thread has been going I just needed to vent a little about Joff not being held appropriately accountable. Maybe your comment reminds me and makes me feel bad for Arya feeling guilty, it was an innocent thing for her to do and when Joff showed up the situation spiraled out of control making her a victim of a monster. No normal person would expect that behavior, certainly not a sheltered child. Anyway the following is not directed at you AllOfTheHours.

If we keep going back blaming this one and that one for this and that it gets too muddled when clearly it's all Joff's fault and none of this would have happened if he was not sadistic. If Arya gets blame for the incident by asking Mycah to practice with her you could also blame others for innocent choices when really they are all victims of a monster.

Sansa could be blamed for going off with Joff without a chaperone which she knew was wrong or making an issue of Arya and Mycah practicing. The Septa for letting the girls go play like any children would. The Hound for not watching his charge. Jon for giving Arya a sword because of course she would want to practice. Ned for teaching Arya to treat commoners well.... No, it begins and ends with Joff.

Ask yourself this, if any of the adults had discovered Arya and Mycah play practicing at swords with sticks what do you think they would have done? Certainly not pulled out real steel and cut up a young boy's face... The kids would have been scolded and sent on their way.... some of the adults just might have even found it funny and cute.

We don't know what she told Ned,let's assume it's Aryas story. Regardless they had this conversation immediately afterwards, while it was still in her memory.

We do know Sansa's story aligns with Arya's as opposed to Joff. When the king basically asks Ned who is he supposed to believe this is what Ned says and thinks.

"They were not the only ones present," Ned said. "Sansa, come here." Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth. "Tell us what happened."

I doubt he have done this if Sansa's story did not confirm Arya's side. Ned had Vayon Poole bring Sansa for this reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By Ned's POV we can assume it's Arya's story. Repeating events we witnessed as conversation passed on in the next chapter is bad writing anyway.

Again she was sure enough. She wouldn't have been blaming Arya a minute later.

By Sansa's pov just the mere existence of Arya ruins everything, even though Arya has learned to do her own thing and stay out of Sansa's way. Pretty clear that Sansa and especially Jeyne Poole used to show Arya she was not wanted. Sansa is praised all the time, has Jeyne Poole and Beth and others fawning over her. She never wanted her sister to exist and now that the sister has gotten the message and tries to have a life of her own and leave Sansa to do whatever she likes to do, it's still not enough, and basically Arya must be punished for not fawning over. Nothing Arya ever could have done would have been good enough - Jeyne Poole guarding her best friend position around Sansa, Sansa herself and the septa made sure of that.

Why can we assume this based off neds pov? How was she sure enough? She blames Arya for everything, like you said she always thinks arya ruins everything. So when shit hits the fan she immediately blames Arya.

@Elaena

But the chapter was from Sansa's point of view so I don't think that argument works, she knows what happened. We received Sansa's impressions of the event and what Joff did was awful from her own eyes. How Sansa personally feels about it all is a different, and fluid, matter.

The reason this argument persuades me is precisely because it's from Sansa's pov. She added a kiss, why not erase a fight? The unkiss was due to her fright of blackwater, drunk on wine and lust of sandor, this situation is very similar (I'm not sure if Sansa thought Joff the villain at the time, telling Arya to let Joffrey harass Mycha and all)

We do know Sansa's story aligns with Arya's as opposed to Joff. When the king basically asks Ned who is he supposed to believe this is what Ned says and thinks.

"They were not the only ones present," Ned said. "Sansa, come here." Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth. "Tell us what happened."

I doubt he have done this if Sansa's story did not confirm Arya's side. Ned had Vayon Poole bring Sansa for this reason.

iirc Ned first met Arya in Roberts presence. There was no time for the three starks to collude they're story.

I doubt, or refuse to believe, that what she told Ned was Joffs story, with two vs one and a direwolf for Arya's pleasure.

Ned would never believe it, and Sansa wouldn't either. She knows her sister, but thought she knew Joffrey as well. If Sansa told the real story to Ned, how could she continue justifying loving him?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why can we assume this based off neds pov? How was she sure enough? She blames Arya for everything, like you said she always thinks arya ruins everything. So when shit hits the fan she immediately blames Arya.

@Elaena The reason this argument persuades me is precisely because it's from Sansa's pov. She added a kiss, why not erase a fight? The unkiss was due to her fright of blackwater, drunk on wine and lust of sandor, this situation is very similar (I'm not sure if Sansa thought Joff the villain at the time, telling Arya to let Joffrey harass Mycha and all) iirc Ned first met Arya in Roberts presence. There was no time for the three starks to collude they're story.

I doubt, or refuse to believe, that what she told Ned was Joffs story, with two vs one and a direwolf for Arya's pleasure.

Ned would never believe it, and Sansa wouldn't either. She knows her sister, but thought she knew Joffrey as well. If Sansa told the real story to Ned, how could she continue justifying loving him?

She would have told her pov experience as we read it in the chapter... something akin to this:

Went walking, came upon Arya and Mycah fighting with sticks - and she looked all dirty and scrawny and that butcher's boy looks the worst - and he beat her, then when Joffrey learned it was my sister he wanted to teach Mycah a lesson with his sword, and of course Arya had to defend that stupid butcher's boy, and I told her not to interfere. But as always she wouldn't listen to me, and then she hit Joffrey on the head with the stick - my poor prince - and Mycah ran off, and then it was awful.. Joffrey lost it and threatened Arya with his sword, cursing ans wearing. She should never have hit him. She ruined my time with Joffrey, father. And then Nymeria bit my poor prince in the wrist. Before she ran off, she picked up his beautiful, princely sword and threw it in the river. Joffrey didn't mean it. He was only trying to stick up for Arya who was being beaten by that wretched butcher's boy she had no business playing at swords with anyway! I love him, father! He's always so kind and attentive to me. Arya provoked him into violence.

That's Sansa's pov. But an adult can distinguish her opinions on what she saw from the bare bone facts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Elaena The reason this argument persuades me is precisely because it's from Sansa's pov.

In Martin's writing style he uses descriptions and qualifiers for each character's inner voice that is unique for that character that shows how they think and feel. So every word in any given chapter is from that character not the author or narrator. (with the exception of during Victorian getting his armed 'healed') We see the fight from Sansa's perspective and it's pretty close to the reality. Like I said, how Sansa feels about it all changes as her circumstances change but she is very aware of the facts while her interpretation of it suits her needs.

I could break all of this down to show precisely my meaning but it would take time and be a long read and it's off topic. However if your interested I would work on it so we could discuss it further. From Sansa's jealousy over Arya spending time with Mycah to her descriptions of Joffrey's behavior, like the look in his eyes. You can't just believe at face value what a character thinks or feels since sometimes they are not aware themselves, which is normal human behavior, you have to look deeper.

Anyway Sansa recalls everything immediately and who she blames the second she realizes Lady will be killed and continues to remember. We see this in what she says, to the way she treats Arya after and even Ned agrees Sansa lied.

"Stop them," Sansa pleaded, "don't let them do it, please, please, it wasn't Lady, it was Nymeria, Arya did it, you can't, it wasn't Lady, don't let them hurt Lady..."

It was all her [Arya] fault, everything bad that had happened. Sansa said so, and Jeyne too.

At first she thought she hated him for what they'd done to Lady, but after Sansa had wept her eyes dry, she told herself that it had not been Joffrey's doing, not truly. The queen had done it; she was the one to hate, her and Arya. Nothing bad would have happened except for Arya.

"You're horrible," she screamed at her sister. "They should have killed you instead of Lady!"

She added a kiss, why not erase a fight? The unkiss was due to her fright of blackwater, drunk on wine and lust of sandor, this situation is very similar (I'm not sure if Sansa thought Joff the villain at the time, telling Arya to let Joffrey harass Mycha and all)

I don't think the circumstances are the same at all. Sansa consciously blames Arya after Lady is ordered to be killed, which btw I feel shows she remembers everything just fine but it's a matter of who to blame. Sansa does not want her sweet prince to be monstrous since that spoils everything she fantasizes about. In contrast the unkiss is not about blame, covering, delusions or fantasies - it's about agency, reality, desire and sexual awakening.

On the later I agree, Sansa does not seem to acknowledge to herself that Joff is the villain and that's what is problematic - but it's clear he was to us from her own thoughts during the fight. She does at one point ask him to stop as well since they are spoiling everything. She tries to get off her horse quickly to intervene but it was to late. I could really break it down line by line but....

iirc Ned first met Arya in Roberts presence. There was no time for the three starks to collude they're story.

Yes that's correct and I hope you don't think I meant to imply otherwise. Arya was already in the chamber so they couldn't talk but Ned and Sansa heard both Arya and Joff give their versions. Then it's clear Ned believes Sansa's version will support Arya since he calls her to tell the truth that she had already told him earlier.

I doubt, or refuse to believe, that what she told Ned was Joffs story, with two vs one and a direwolf for Arya's pleasure. Ned would never believe it, and Sansa wouldn't either.

That's good and I agree.... but then I don't understand how you think she could just simply forget the truth when it matters - when she heard Joff and Arya telling their versions right before she was asked - and she remembers later.

She knows her sister, but thought she knew Joffrey as well. If Sansa told the real story to Ned, how could she continue justifying loving him?

I'm unclear on your meaning here. Are you implying Sansa lied to Ned about the incident? Are you asking how Ned did not see what a monster Joff was by the real story? Are you trying to puzzle out how Sansa could be so delusional over Joffrey since you believe she just does not remember?

I think you mean that she could not remember nor told Ned the truth because that would be illogical for her to continue to "love" Joff. But that's exactly it - Sansa was willfully illogical and delusional the whole time over Joff and becoming queen and the spell is not broken until Ned is beheaded. Sansa thought she was in love and certainly wanted the fairy tale of being queen, she's a young girl that's normal especially if it's within reach since Sansa was reared for this purpose.

And by ignoring this you miss out on her character growth which is impressive. Not only is her journey a coming-of-age tale but it also deconstructs fairy tale tropes and so much more....

Also Sansa does not 'know' Joff and that's kind of the point, she doesn't even love him. She fantasies about how she wants things to be while ignoring the reality. This is very dangerous behavior and Sansa unfortunately learns that the hard way because of the setting. When we do this in our lives we usually do not have to face such unfair and devastating consequences.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In Martin's writing style he uses descriptions and qualifiers for each character's inner voice that is unique for that character that shows how they think and feel. So every word in any given chapter is from that character not the author or narrator. (with the exception of during Victorian getting his armed 'healed') We see the fight from Sansa's perspective and it's pretty close to the reality. Like I said, how Sansa feels about it all changes as her circumstances change but she is very aware of the facts while her interpretation of it suits her needs.

I could break all of this down to show precisely my meaning but it would take time and be a long read and it's off topic. However if your interested I would work on it so we could discuss it further. From Sansa's jealousy over Arya spending time with Mycah to her descriptions of Joffrey's behavior, like the look in his eyes. You can't just believe at face value what a character thinks or feels since sometimes they are not aware themselves, which is normal human behavior, you have to look deeper.

Anyway Sansa recalls everything immediately and who she blames the second she realizes Lady will be killed and continues to remember. We see this in what she says, to the way she treats Arya after and even Ned agrees Sansa lied.

"Stop them," Sansa pleaded, "don't let them do it, please, please, it wasn't Lady, it was Nymeria, Arya did it, you can't, it wasn't Lady, don't let them hurt Lady..."

It was all her [Arya] fault, everything bad that had happened. Sansa said so, and Jeyne too.

At first she thought she hated him for what they'd done to Lady, but after Sansa had wept her eyes dry, she told herself that it had not been Joffrey's doing, not truly. The queen had done it; she was the one to hate, her and Arya. Nothing bad would have happened except for Arya.

"You're horrible," she screamed at her sister. "They should have killed you instead of Lady!"

I don't think the circumstances are the same at all. Sansa consciously blames Arya after Lady is ordered to be killed, which btw I feel shows she remembers everything just fine but it's a matter of who to blame. Sansa does not want her sweet prince to be monstrous since that spoils everything she fantasizes about. In contrast the unkiss is not about blame, covering, delusions or fantasies - it's about agency, reality, desire and sexual awakening.

On the later I agree, Sansa does not seem to acknowledge to herself that Joff is the villain and that's what is problematic - but it's clear he was to us from her own thoughts during the fight. She does at one point ask him to stop as well since they are spoiling everything. She tries to get off her horse quickly to intervene but it was to late. I could really break it down line by line but....

Yes that's correct and I hope you don't think I meant to imply otherwise. Arya was already in the chamber so they couldn't talk but Ned and Sansa heard both Arya and Joff give their versions. Then it's clear Ned believes Sansa's version will support Arya since he calls her to tell the truth that she had already told him earlier.

That's good and I agree.... but then I don't understand how you think she could just simply forget the truth when it matters - when she heard Joff and Arya telling their versions right before she was asked - and she remembers later.

I'm unclear on your meaning here. Are you implying Sansa lied to Ned about the incident? Are you asking how Ned did not see what a monster Joff was by the real story? Are you trying to puzzle out how Sansa could be so delusional over Joffrey since you believe she just does not remember?

I think you mean that she could not remember nor told Ned the truth because that would be illogical for her to continue to "love" Joff. But that's exactly it - Sansa was willfully illogical and delusional the whole time over Joff and becoming queen and the spell is not broken until Ned is beheaded. Sansa thought she was in love and certainly wanted the fairy tale of being queen, she's a young girl that's normal especially if it's within reach since Sansa was reared for this purpose.

And by ignoring this you miss out on her character growth which is impressive. Not only is her journey a coming-of-age tale but it also deconstructs fairy tale tropes and so much more....

Also Sansa does not 'know' Joff and that's kind of the point, she doesn't even love him. She fantasies about how she wants things to be while ignoring the reality. This is very dangerous behavior and Sansa unfortunately learns that the hard way because of the setting. When we do this in our lives we usually do not have to face such unfair and devastating consequences.

I'm always down for discussing Sansa! (She is my favorite Stark)

Sansa did blame Arya after Roberts order, but she blames Arya for everything; And is usually correct, Mordane, Cat and Jeyne never yell at Sansa. (Unfortunately her scapegoating probably was inspired by her mother. Loving Winterfell, but say it's not perfect because of this Stark looking kid) Saying it's Aryas fault was Sansas catchphrase, and I don't think there was any dispute that Nymeria bit Joff, the trial was to find out why.

I agree that everything through the eyes of a pov is reality, the unkiss for example had no kiss. However when reflecting on the past, things happen to change.

I'd argue that the unkiss was important. Sansas denial to leave with Sandor has been the first time she's made any choice, since Ladys death.

I'd also argue that it's similar. They were both about fantasies, singing to her love after defending the city in battle, very romantic. Sansa was mad turned on during the ride with Joffrey as well, her sexual awaking happend then.

Your right, Sansa could not remember the truth, but refusing to remember 100% accurately is the same thing as not remembering

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course Arya would "ruin" stuff: she's a younger kid from the get go, with less dexterity, less physical development and thus clumsier, and therefore also less able to have self-control. It was just pure nonsense by Mordane and even Cat to compare the daughters in such a way. Just because Arya's younger she's already set up to fail against her sister, not counting their difference in nature. As Arya felt deeply and accurately: it wasn't fair. She never even had a chance. No wonder she psychologically decided not to care anymore for any of that. Even when she tried, she was a failure in everybody's comments to her. So why would she try even further. Only option left for her is to go do her own thing and hope to stay clear of Sansa, which she does, but Sansa's not having it. And despite what many readers think of the FM, they're the first and imo only ones out there who reconnect Arya with her femininity (she's never allowed to pose as a boy) and acquire the skills of tempering her emotionality, teach her how to plan, act more subservient in the required situations, etc... She's finally learning more Sansa-like skills in a way that her septa and mother would never have done, because they failed her from the start.



I disagree with Sansa not hearing bad things said of her by Mordane: Whenever Sansa does something the septa does not like, she threatens with "You're turning out like Arya." Gosh, I hate that septa. And Cat is beyond my understanding in that way - it's not as if she was ever a docile "Lady", not in the books and I doubt in her youth (she was after all for years the heir of RR before Edmure was born). Overall, I blame those two for creating a "golden child" versus "black sheep". It hampers personal development for both the scapegoat as well as the golden child. The golden child will be more prone to narcissism (and narcissists never take the blame but always ascapegoat) and the scapegoat becomes the rebel who blames themselves. And even if life experiences helps them to develop beyond that and mature, ime (I just have to look at my father as the scapegoat and his sister the wonder child (not)... they don't exist anymore to each other and never will) these type of relations never get resolved. At best, they come to a forced truce of silent distrust and resentment.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×