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Elaena Targaryen

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About Elaena Targaryen

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    Duchess of Difficult
  • Birthday September 13

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    I don't need any of your shit I'm on a magical journey

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  1. I finally caught up, and I would "like" all the comments if we didn't have a limit lol, so I'll try not to be repetitive here. I hate how they ignored the sociology of the world, it made it feel so small and nonsensical. There are so many unanswered questions but at least I have a hope for the books. From a certain perspective it feels like the show made it all about Dany and this story was never supposed to hinge on one character. Yes, she's a major endgame player but a lot of other story lines feel irrelevant now. If the fandom can barely muster feelings for the Starks what about all the time spent on others? So now I have to ask myself if Dany will be the final boss to beat in the books, I don't think so but what if... Does that mean the events have been manipulated from the beginning to thwart Dany? Did Bloodraven (and Bran) pull strings to prepare the Starks for defeating Dany as well as the AotD? What else was the point of the Stark kids trials and tribulations? What was the meaning of their story arcs if they pretty much ended where they began? Why did Bran need to ask his small council questions? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Especially about Drogon? So Bran repeatably doesn't want to be Lord of Winterfell but he's all about King of the Six Kingdoms? Could anyone give me a clue what the fuck Arya might accomplish in her book endgame? Let me say that in the books I can totally see her leaving on adventures and thank the gods that she doesn't end up as one of her siblings sidekicks. But if the fandom doesn't believe Arya will kill the Freys as that is Stoneheart's job, Littlefinger is Sansa's kill, or that she will kill the NK.... and Arya does nothing else in the show of value then what is her book relevance? She has to do something, anything of importance in the books so why wasn't it in the show? Arya arguably has the most individual story line so what was the point? While I'm happy with Sansa's ending for many reasons, even if it defies the established sociology so I don't know what to expect from the books, I still have issues with her arc from a certain perspective. I've seen several comments "Sansa was right" regarding Dany and I find that disingenuous. If you recall Sansa didn't trust Davos either and he was faithful to Jon and their mission, so she was wrong here. If I recall correctly Sansa only wanted Jon to trust her which is ironic since she ended up with his title. I guess Arya was right when she said that's what Sansa wanted? It doesn't help cast her in a better light considering Sansa was the only one to contest Bran become king and then to refuse him. She claims the north wont kneel but that is what we saw them do at the end... do they just love her that much? I can't tell if we are supposed to like Sansa or not with the sloppy writing but at least she ended up with more complexity in her story than other characters.
  2. Elaena Targaryen

    Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

    I listened to this podcast with Bryan Cogman because he was supposed to discuss what Bran and Tyrion talked about (around 1 hr 17) but it was his response to a question about Bran (around 1:16:33) that was interesting considering the leaks. If you want to listen to his whole interview it starts around the 45 min mark. BC was asked if we can believe what Bran said in e3 about the NK, about his mission, about the 3ER, about everything and what Bran is saying is true, right? BC pauses then says with humor - well Bran has said what he said and that's all I'll say. It may be nothing but I didn't expect the evasive reply since nothing else has came up connected to this in the show. If the NK and the 3ER's main purpose are done why can't we have answers?
  3. Elaena Targaryen

    Spoilers--Arya's Journey from No One to Someone

    I loved that Arya killed the Night King. I didn't expect the show to do something like that but it totally works. Sure there are some things I hope we get answers for but... It's not out of line with her book arc either. (Not that I expect "it" to happen in the books, just that it could.) I have always believed it's obvious in the books that Arya will play a role fighting the Others - and most of her themes, motifs, symbolism, training, skills, travels, experiences and encounters support that. There are many parallels in the story lines of Bran/north/three-eyed crow and Arya/Braavos/Kindly Man. Arya has a strong relationship with death, and more minor associations with water and the moon. Arya has a connection to the Isle of Faces and maybe the children. Also don't forget Nymeria and her enormous wolf pack. Arya will be a major asset in the battle against the Army of the Dead.
  4. Ah, now I understand the hangup. I see oral storytelling in a different light. Bael is a wildling folk hero, it's their story, to the point Ygritte claims descent and Mance idealizes it. After Jon tells Ygritte that Bael was a liar she says "a bard's truth is different than yours or mine." Embellishments? Yup. To me it's like Robin Hood, King Arthur, Ragnar or Zorro. But Bael is more local and isn't as legendary like that, like the Night's King or Bran the Builder is. These stories are told and retold changing as time and place passes. How many Scottish or Irish folk heroes are there that the English nobility have never heard of? The wildlings tell their story and take pride in it. The north and the Starks don't care and don't believe it. Mance claims to have sung about Bael at the Shadow Tower and I'd imagine rangers have heard it. But why would anyone disrespect the Starks repeating some wildling lies? Nobody can say when or if any of it's true but the north hates the wildlings and wouldn't repeat the tale. Old Nan even tells embellished scary stories about wildlings. There is no proof that Bael existed beyond this ignorant local folk tale. It's a cool story but I question it just like I question Merlin's magical abilities, or how Bran could have lived thousands of years to build so many castles. Exactly! Hi kissdbyfire, good to see you.... and thanks for helping since I'm not around much! First I want to address the confusion of the Knight of the Laughing Tree story. Just because the Reeds couched the KotLT tale as a story to Bran does not mean it's a story being told by everyone. I'm not sure why you think it would be important enough to have a storytelling tradition attached to it? Beyond those directly involved? Of course it was a big deal for Howland but why does that mean Old Nan would know and repeat the events? And I agree Ned wouldn't discuss it because it's painful. However, like the KotLT, I do think you place to much in-story importance on Bael's Tale. As to which Brandon Old Nan cared for, she obviously cared for more than one Brandon (William's Brandon and Artos's Brandon) and you don't have to be old to mix up your babies.... ask any parent.... let alone them having the same name.... But this is all besides the point. Have fun with the stories and place as much importance as you want on them! I still firmly state that it is not possible for the Bael Tale to have taken place so recently - after Old Nan's arrival at Winterfell. So it is not possible that the pregnant woman in Bran's vision is the Bael Maid.
  5. Bael is a legend, oral lore at that. If it really happened at all the timing would be hard to pinpoint. It could have been before or after Aegon's Conquest, it doesn't matter. You are not the first since Dance came out to wonder this and it isn't supported by the text, even before we received a more detailed family tree. So, no the pregnant woman cannot really be the Bael Maid. No matter when (or if) Bael lived it had to be before Old Nan arrived at Winterfell. The pregnant woman was likely one of The She-Wolves of Winterfell and we will get that story in the next Dunk and Egg installment, hopefully! I agree, Ygritte could have learned the story wrong or those details could be clues to the timeline. It's also cherry-picking to suit an idea that you don't need for your analysis. (It wouldn't change a thing to leave this vision out of the OP.) What about Lord Brandon the Daughterless? All it takes is a look at the family tree to see there is no Lord Brandon after Old Nan's arrival at Winterfell, or to see there are no daughters that fit the tale. Or tales about thirty years later (which would place it in Rickard's time) of a King Beyond the Wall marching an army south. We have heard of Raymun Redbeard and the Battle of Long Lake in 226, which is way to early and also the last known KBtW to bring an army south until Mance. I find these items more suggestive of the timing. It's beyond even crackpot if you agree with the order of events, and there is no reason to cling to this idea. I'm all for wild theories and I'll have fun with you (and your thoughts on Rhaegar's crown were very interesting) but the timeline does not work. There are many other great points from the OP to discuss and it all still fits the Bael theme without this and the vision really adds nothing. I think the story of the mystery knight is more personal and easily kept quiet while you can't hide a recent wildling war from them or us. I also feel the details of Lyanna's story would be more painful for Ned than some "Bael Tale" from a generation or two before, they would still be from Stark blood after all. Besides the kids have info on Lyanna. "Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all." I don't see how the "Bael Tale" would be more painful than kidnapping, rape, war and lost love. Not to mention what the Mad King did to Rickard and Brandon.
  6. I haven't read the thread yet but I thought it was an interesting OP. I like to look at things from a different perspective, even if I have quibbles. However, I do not think this glimpse in Bran's vision is showing a part of Bael's story. It's clear the vision is going back in time "The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision,...." and the pregnant woman comes too early in the sequence. She comes in between Lyanna and Benjen playing and what is most likely Nan and Duncan kissing. The Bael story and Brandon the Daughterless should be much older. "After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them."
  7. Sorry, that was not meant as a criticism of what you said Lost Melnibonean, I was just thinking on a different track.
  8. I know you are thinking of Sansa but at a superficial glance I would break it down to each bird. Arya is the swan, Bran the crow and maybe Mel for the hawk. I'd have to read the chapter again to see if that fits or matters as symbolism. It is an interesting chapter and I recall Arya struggling with duality throughout. Taking another look at the birds in this light is intriguing. Arya wishes to be the swan because of their serenity, but another part of her wants to eat it. Arya wants peace but fears she might devour it. The hawk was not seen, it's a memory that symbolizes Arya not fitting into societal gender expectations. Arya acknowledges that she is ready for the hawk but she rejects it and knows she would devour it. Arya never thinks about eating the crow, Lommy did and this is the chapter where he dies. Everyone is starving but the crows are feasting. She does notice the crows have eaten the faces off of the dead. A crow betrays her so she gets caught. In a later chapter she wishes to be a crow, to devour her enemies. Finally it's interesting that they were black swans. (If somebody more familiar with symbolism could add their thoughts I'd appreciate it.) I think(?) black swans have some connection with suffering and vulnerability. Arya is surrounded by the suffering in the war-torn Riverlands so she feels laid bare. This is what she thinks right before seeing the swans. She dare not pluck her feathers and make herself more vulnerable. This mentality later on leads her to seek power to protect herself and others. The suffering puts her on the path of vengeance and death. She needs to find a symmetry between the black and white, it comes back to the duality in the chapter. Arya rejected the hawk, being a perfect lady, purity and perfection. So she needs to tame her wild side and it's sad to say but it seems the HoBaW is achieving this. Maybe reuniting with family will bring an equilibrium, there were three black swans - the swan has three heads. :-) Maybe the crow can save her, I recall some folklore where a plucked white swan was given black feathers from a crow. But did the crow set her on the path to being a Faceless Man and is that a good thing? I think so on the former, her chapters are littered with clues which I won't get into now since this whole post already has nothing to do with the op.
  9. Elaena Targaryen

    GRRM WoW Twist

    What else are we to do while we wait for Winds? Let's visit this again. What do you think the twist could be? April 2015 - Martin says he just came up with a big, revealing twist on a long-time character that he never previously considered. “This is going to drive your readers crazy,” he teased, “but I love it. I’m still weighing whether to go that direction or not. It’s a great twist. It’s easy to do things that are shocking or unexpected, but they have to grow out of characters. They have to grow out of situations. Otherwise, it’s just being shocking for being shocking. But this is something that seems very organic and natural, and I could see how it would happen. And with the various three, four characters involved … it all makes sense. But it’s nothing I’ve ever thought of before. And it’s nothing they can do in the show, because the show has already — on this particular character — made a couple decisions that will preclude it, where in my case I have not made those decisions.” February 2016 - “I have decided to do that, yes,” Martin said in the new interview when asked about his previous quote. “Will you know it? I don’t know. It’s fairly obvious because it is something that involves a couple of characters, one of whom is dead on the show, but not dead in the books. So the show can’t do it, because they have killed a character I have not killed. But that doesn’t narrow it down much because at this point there are like 15 characters who are dead on the show who are still alive on the books.” http://www.ew.com/article/2016/02/25/george-rr-martins-game-thrones-twist/ The key points 1. revealing 2. long-time character 3. never previously considered 4. GRRM loves it 5. took time to decide ( weigh ) whether or not to do it 6. it's organic and natural 7. three or four characters involved 8. show can't do it since it has made a couple of decisions with a particular character 9. it will be obvious 10. character alive in books but dead in show 11. mention of fifteen characters alive vs dead My thoughts on the key points 1. Barristan seems suited to reveal something important but do we even know if GRRM used this term or was it the writer of the article? Hibberd used it the first time in 2015 but not the second time in 2016. 2. They are all pretty much long-time characters, but does it mean a long-time show character? They are all important to GRRM. This twist does seem like something that could effect the plot in a major way, for that reason, I would think it has to be a character with the weight to do so. 3. I think this helps rule out some forum theories solely for the twist. Like Jeyne Westerling being pregnant, I don't believe that GRRM would have never considered that. Maybe even any Lannister's being Aerys get. Not that these theories aren't possible, they just don't fit this twist. 4. It's likely something horrible if GRRM loves it, at the least, shocking and unexpected. So that should rule out some things too. No Jojen Paste though, it doesn't have a big enough impact imo. 5. If he had to weigh it that says to me it was weighed against something else. That again, imo, sounds major. "It's a great twist." Of the techniques he likes to use could it be a flashback, an unreliable narrator reveal or a reversal of fortune? 6. If it's organic it's guessable and may have already been discussed on the forum. But I seriously doubt it's been foreshadowed. Some crackpots can rejoice. 7. I think, with the timing of the interview ( at this time GRRM thought he could turn the book in within five months ), it's likely that this twist takes place later in Winds and we won't know who will still be near each other. It's easy to say Stoneheart, Brienne and Jaime, but if the twist is later in the book their situation could be resolved too early to qualify as the three or four characters involved. Unless this is why Winds is taking so long, rewriting. 8. It sounds like more decisions effects this than killing the character off. That could help narrow the suspects too. If Mago or Grenn could fit the twist did their deviations in the show really effect anything like with say Mance or Xaro? 9. GRRM thinks we should be able to identify this when we read the book. Again that makes it sound like this twist will be no small thing. 10. That doesn't really help as much as you'd think, as of season 6 there are like more than 65 characters that fit this criteria. You can even add Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower to the list because we have not "seen" their deaths in the books yet like we have in the show, so in theory GRRM could add a twist that Bran could reveal. And yes season 6 fits the timeline. Martin first mentioned the twist in April 2015, the show stared filming s6 in July 2015, he would have known what they planned. That being said I'm still leaning towards a death from an earlier season. 11. This is why I said the latter on point ten. Why would he say in 2016 that there are only 15 characters alive vs dead? There are more than 15 at the end of season 2 ( all in Essos ), with the only one of any real consequence through season 4 being Catelyn. Season 5 adds eight more, most with more significance like Stannis. While this may be an exercise in futility until we get the book it's something to do while on Watch. I can't even begin to guess, especially if s6 characters are factored in, so I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts. I will put support behind it being Lady Stoneheart, from Martin's constant mentions of her not being in the show, and not because I have any idea what the twist could involve. GRRM brings up her being cut all the time and how much he wishes she was in the show. I've not seen such consistent comments with other characters. ⦁ 2015 - Lady Stoneheart does have a role in the books. Whether it’s sufficient or interesting enough… I think it is, or I wouldn’t have put her in. One of the things I wanted to show with her is that the death she suffered changes you. ⦁ 2016 - [An Italian fan] then asked George if Lady Stoneheart was going to appear on the show. George said no, that she’d been cut. He said if he were involved in the show things would be different, but he’s busy trying to finish books. ⦁ 2017 - At some points, when [show-runners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss] and I had discussions about what way we should go in, I would always favor sticking with the books, while they would favor making changes. I think one of the biggest ones would probably be when they made the decision not to bring Catelyn Stark back as Lady Stoneheart. That was probably the first major diversion of the show from the books and, you know, I argued against that, and David and Dan made that decision ⦁ 2017 - In the book, characters can be resurrected. After Catelyn is resurrected as Lady Stoneheart, she becomes a vengeful, heartless killer. In the sixth book, I still continue to write her. She is an important character in the set of books. [Keeping her character] is the change I most wish I could make in the [show]. Here are some mentions of other characters from GRRM that I've found but I would love it if someone has found more. It reminds me not to be biased towards Westerosi characters. ⦁ 2011 - “So Mago is not dead in the books. And, in fact, he’s going to be a recurring character in Winds of Winter. He’s a particularly nasty bloodrider to one of the other Khals that’s broken away after Drogo dies.” ⦁ 2013 - If they are alive in the books, they are alive in the books, and may well turn up again. Irri (and Jhiqui) is still serving as Dany’s handmaid, Rakharo remains one of her bloodriders. ⦁ 2016 - Just consider. Mago, Irri, Rakharo, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, Pyat Pree, Pyp, Grenn, Ser Barristan Selmy, Queen Selyse, Princess Shireen, Princess Myrcella, Mance Rayder, and King Stannis are all dead in the show, alive in the books. Some of them will die in the books as well, yes... but not all of them, and some may die at different times in different ways. ⦁ 2016 - You will learn the fate of Pyat Pree in WINDS. The Thirteen are still one of the factions contending for power in Qarth.
  10. Elaena Targaryen

    [Spoiler] EP603

    Yes, we now know he is a thousand years old - in the show. Which is fine but I think in the books that the 3EC being a thousand years old, and not Bloodraven, is as likely as Sansa marring Ramsay. What fan theories? Does "all" mean show, books, both? It's not a theory for the books since Bran calls him Lord Brynden several times. Yea you got a point. It doesn't really matter and it doesn't really hurt anything to change it. Maybe they even have other plans in this case. But what would it hurt to keep it? Season 1 was layered with the history, lore, dialogue that felt like it belongs in this world and it made everyone love the show. Is all these little changes to the atmosphere, causing some dissatisfaction, worth it? Robb did not make Jon his heir in the show. It's just one more of the little things the show changed or dropped from the books. It could have been a good choice to add it since Jon is important, a fan favorite and it adds suspense to his storyline however it could still come up later as a surprise twist but why bother if it doesn't matter, right?
  11. Elaena Targaryen

    Official Testing Thread

  12. Elaena Targaryen

    [TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

    At first I would not have thought so since it initially appears that LF is playing a long game, but now I wonder if things might go much faster. Could the tourney be a guise for a wedding? A wedding that could lead to war? If Harry agrees to marry why wait? Everyone of importance is at this tourney, the pageantry and largeness is wooing the Knights of Summer. The focus of the gifts, food, celebrations could easily be romanticized to the whole event, tourney included, happening because of the wedding. The charming and beautiful Princess Sansa of House Stark marring the idealized lord Harry the Heir could send these young falcons to begging for war to take back Winterfell for them. Oswell could have arrived on his lathered horse with news of an annulment. LF could be storing the food to feed an army and he could be closing ports and seizing ships to transport that army. Of course there are plenty of wildcards that could mess up any plans and this was all just something new that crossed my mind recently. I want to read relevant chapters again but I thought I'd see what you guys had to say first. Is this a silly idea?
  13. Elaena Targaryen

    [Book Spoilers] EP506 Discussion v. 2

    This https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DInYaHVSLr8 is what I believe greensleeves meant by Sansa being "fridged" for Theon
  14. Elaena Targaryen

    [Book Spoilers] EP506 Discussion v. 2

    Oh yea I completely agree.... but for clarification; I only tried to count "hell" in singular form, not involving the seven hells, and the context on several of those was similar to - go to hell (the "go to hell" by Stannis in the show jarred me too) to add all four uses of "go to hell" in the books involved Arya :lol: Totally agree and get your point on "sensitive diplomatic mission", it's really silly. I just had the count so I threw it in, and since in no instance did the use of "mission" in the books ever have any qualifiers This is the only passage where "sword swallower" was used, for context; Four master pyromancers conjured up beasts of living flame to tear at each other with flery claws whilst the serving men ladeled out bowls of blandissory, a mixture of beef broth and boiled wine sweetened with honey and dotted with blanched almonds and chunks of capon. Then came some strolling pipers and clever dogs and sword swallowers, with buttered pease, chopped nuts, and slivers of swan poached in a sauce of saffron and peaches. ("Not swan again," Tyrion muttered, remembering his supper with his sister on the eve of battle.) A juggler kept a half-dozen swords and axes whirling through the air as skewers of blood sausage were brought sizzling to the tables, a juxtaposition that Tyrion thought passing clever, though not perhaps in the best of taste.
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