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Elaena Targaryen

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About Elaena Targaryen

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    Duchess of Difficult
  • Birthday September 13

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  1. What else are we to do while we wait for Winds? Let's visit this again. What do you think the twist could be? April 2015 - Martin says he just came up with a big, revealing twist on a long-time character that he never previously considered. “This is going to drive your readers crazy,” he teased, “but I love it. I’m still weighing whether to go that direction or not. It’s a great twist. It’s easy to do things that are shocking or unexpected, but they have to grow out of characters. They have to grow out of situations. Otherwise, it’s just being shocking for being shocking. But this is something that seems very organic and natural, and I could see how it would happen. And with the various three, four characters involved … it all makes sense. But it’s nothing I’ve ever thought of before. And it’s nothing they can do in the show, because the show has already — on this particular character — made a couple decisions that will preclude it, where in my case I have not made those decisions.” February 2016 - “I have decided to do that, yes,” Martin said in the new interview when asked about his previous quote. “Will you know it? I don’t know. It’s fairly obvious because it is something that involves a couple of characters, one of whom is dead on the show, but not dead in the books. So the show can’t do it, because they have killed a character I have not killed. But that doesn’t narrow it down much because at this point there are like 15 characters who are dead on the show who are still alive on the books.” http://www.ew.com/article/2016/02/25/george-rr-martins-game-thrones-twist/ The key points 1. revealing 2. long-time character 3. never previously considered 4. GRRM loves it 5. took time to decide ( weigh ) whether or not to do it 6. it's organic and natural 7. three or four characters involved 8. show can't do it since it has made a couple of decisions with a particular character 9. it will be obvious 10. character alive in books but dead in show 11. mention of fifteen characters alive vs dead My thoughts on the key points 1. Barristan seems suited to reveal something important but do we even know if GRRM used this term or was it the writer of the article? Hibberd used it the first time in 2015 but not the second time in 2016. 2. They are all pretty much long-time characters, but does it mean a long-time show character? They are all important to GRRM. This twist does seem like something that could effect the plot in a major way, for that reason, I would think it has to be a character with the weight to do so. 3. I think this helps rule out some forum theories solely for the twist. Like Jeyne Westerling being pregnant, I don't believe that GRRM would have never considered that. Maybe even any Lannister's being Aerys get. Not that these theories aren't possible, they just don't fit this twist. 4. It's likely something horrible if GRRM loves it, at the least, shocking and unexpected. So that should rule out some things too. No Jojen Paste though, it doesn't have a big enough impact imo. 5. If he had to weigh it that says to me it was weighed against something else. That again, imo, sounds major. "It's a great twist." Of the techniques he likes to use could it be a flashback, an unreliable narrator reveal or a reversal of fortune? 6. If it's organic it's guessable and may have already been discussed on the forum. But I seriously doubt it's been foreshadowed. Some crackpots can rejoice. 7. I think, with the timing of the interview ( at this time GRRM thought he could turn the book in within five months ), it's likely that this twist takes place later in Winds and we won't know who will still be near each other. It's easy to say Stoneheart, Brienne and Jaime, but if the twist is later in the book their situation could be resolved too early to qualify as the three or four characters involved. Unless this is why Winds is taking so long, rewriting. 8. It sounds like more decisions effects this than killing the character off. That could help narrow the suspects too. If Mago or Grenn could fit the twist did their deviations in the show really effect anything like with say Mance or Xaro? 9. GRRM thinks we should be able to identify this when we read the book. Again that makes it sound like this twist will be no small thing. 10. That doesn't really help as much as you'd think, as of season 6 there are like more than 65 characters that fit this criteria. You can even add Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower to the list because we have not "seen" their deaths in the books yet like we have in the show, so in theory GRRM could add a twist that Bran could reveal. And yes season 6 fits the timeline. Martin first mentioned the twist in April 2015, the show stared filming s6 in July 2015, he would have known what they planned. That being said I'm still leaning towards a death from an earlier season. 11. This is why I said the latter on point ten. Why would he say in 2016 that there are only 15 characters alive vs dead? There are more than 15 at the end of season 2 ( all in Essos ), with the only one of any real consequence through season 4 being Catelyn. Season 5 adds eight more, most with more significance like Stannis. While this may be an exercise in futility until we get the book it's something to do while on Watch. I can't even begin to guess, especially if s6 characters are factored in, so I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts. I will put support behind it being Lady Stoneheart, from Martin's constant mentions of her not being in the show, and not because I have any idea what the twist could involve. GRRM brings up her being cut all the time and how much he wishes she was in the show. I've not seen such consistent comments with other characters. ⦁ 2015 - Lady Stoneheart does have a role in the books. Whether it’s sufficient or interesting enough… I think it is, or I wouldn’t have put her in. One of the things I wanted to show with her is that the death she suffered changes you. ⦁ 2016 - [An Italian fan] then asked George if Lady Stoneheart was going to appear on the show. George said no, that she’d been cut. He said if he were involved in the show things would be different, but he’s busy trying to finish books. ⦁ 2017 - At some points, when [show-runners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss] and I had discussions about what way we should go in, I would always favor sticking with the books, while they would favor making changes. I think one of the biggest ones would probably be when they made the decision not to bring Catelyn Stark back as Lady Stoneheart. That was probably the first major diversion of the show from the books and, you know, I argued against that, and David and Dan made that decision ⦁ 2017 - In the book, characters can be resurrected. After Catelyn is resurrected as Lady Stoneheart, she becomes a vengeful, heartless killer. In the sixth book, I still continue to write her. She is an important character in the set of books. [Keeping her character] is the change I most wish I could make in the [show]. Here are some mentions of other characters from GRRM that I've found but I would love it if someone has found more. It reminds me not to be biased towards Westerosi characters. ⦁ 2011 - “So Mago is not dead in the books. And, in fact, he’s going to be a recurring character in Winds of Winter. He’s a particularly nasty bloodrider to one of the other Khals that’s broken away after Drogo dies.” ⦁ 2013 - If they are alive in the books, they are alive in the books, and may well turn up again. Irri (and Jhiqui) is still serving as Dany’s handmaid, Rakharo remains one of her bloodriders. ⦁ 2016 - Just consider. Mago, Irri, Rakharo, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, Pyat Pree, Pyp, Grenn, Ser Barristan Selmy, Queen Selyse, Princess Shireen, Princess Myrcella, Mance Rayder, and King Stannis are all dead in the show, alive in the books. Some of them will die in the books as well, yes... but not all of them, and some may die at different times in different ways. ⦁ 2016 - You will learn the fate of Pyat Pree in WINDS. The Thirteen are still one of the factions contending for power in Qarth.
  2. Yes, we now know he is a thousand years old - in the show. Which is fine but I think in the books that the 3EC being a thousand years old, and not Bloodraven, is as likely as Sansa marring Ramsay. What fan theories? Does "all" mean show, books, both? It's not a theory for the books since Bran calls him Lord Brynden several times. Yea you got a point. It doesn't really matter and it doesn't really hurt anything to change it. Maybe they even have other plans in this case. But what would it hurt to keep it? Season 1 was layered with the history, lore, dialogue that felt like it belongs in this world and it made everyone love the show. Is all these little changes to the atmosphere, causing some dissatisfaction, worth it? Robb did not make Jon his heir in the show. It's just one more of the little things the show changed or dropped from the books. It could have been a good choice to add it since Jon is important, a fan favorite and it adds suspense to his storyline however it could still come up later as a surprise twist but why bother if it doesn't matter, right?
  3. At first I would not have thought so since it initially appears that LF is playing a long game, but now I wonder if things might go much faster. Could the tourney be a guise for a wedding? A wedding that could lead to war? If Harry agrees to marry why wait? Everyone of importance is at this tourney, the pageantry and largeness is wooing the Knights of Summer. The focus of the gifts, food, celebrations could easily be romanticized to the whole event, tourney included, happening because of the wedding. The charming and beautiful Princess Sansa of House Stark marring the idealized lord Harry the Heir could send these young falcons to begging for war to take back Winterfell for them. Oswell could have arrived on his lathered horse with news of an annulment. LF could be storing the food to feed an army and he could be closing ports and seizing ships to transport that army. Of course there are plenty of wildcards that could mess up any plans and this was all just something new that crossed my mind recently. I want to read relevant chapters again but I thought I'd see what you guys had to say first. Is this a silly idea?
  4. This https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DInYaHVSLr8 is what I believe greensleeves meant by Sansa being "fridged" for Theon
  5. Oh yea I completely agree.... but for clarification; I only tried to count "hell" in singular form, not involving the seven hells, and the context on several of those was similar to - go to hell (the "go to hell" by Stannis in the show jarred me too) to add all four uses of "go to hell" in the books involved Arya :lol: Totally agree and get your point on "sensitive diplomatic mission", it's really silly. I just had the count so I threw it in, and since in no instance did the use of "mission" in the books ever have any qualifiers This is the only passage where "sword swallower" was used, for context; Four master pyromancers conjured up beasts of living flame to tear at each other with flery claws whilst the serving men ladeled out bowls of blandissory, a mixture of beef broth and boiled wine sweetened with honey and dotted with blanched almonds and chunks of capon. Then came some strolling pipers and clever dogs and sword swallowers, with buttered pease, chopped nuts, and slivers of swan poached in a sauce of saffron and peaches. ("Not swan again," Tyrion muttered, remembering his supper with his sister on the eve of battle.) A juggler kept a half-dozen swords and axes whirling through the air as skewers of blood sausage were brought sizzling to the tables, a juxtaposition that Tyrion thought passing clever, though not perhaps in the best of taste.
  6. Yea some of these bothered me so I checked the (five) books and some were in there: miles - 74 go to hell - 4 context can/does matter: country - 15 sword swallower - 1 variations: hell - [about] 61 politics - 1 mission - 6 but not diplomatic
  7. It's funny you bring this up since I have an unsullied friend that thought everything involving Talisa was ridiculous, so much so that friend even cheered when Talisa was killed. I had just convinced my friend to watch the show and friend has binge watched the whole series over the past few weeks. Talisa was the one and only thing that friend found completely unrealistic and divergent in every way. Friend could not believe that at Robb's age and position he would have anything to do with a foreigner that he knew absolutely nothing about, in the middle of a war no less, or that Robb would risk things of such great importance for her. Friend also said on her own Talisa felt jarring since she seems like she belongs on a WWII battlefield instead.
  8. Yes I agree, when Cogman writes the episode I always feel that way. The last episodes have been too jarring for me.
  9. Could someone explain to me who Benjicot is? Thanks. [sR] "Ser Harrold has a common woman. Benjicot says she’s carrying his bastard.” [Alayne] Benjicot should learn to keep his fool’s mouth shut.
  10. I've been having trouble again recently that seems similar to the previous sidebar issues. Almost every time I load a new page all posts are overlaid or it's just blank and I have to clear cache and refresh. But while annoying at least that works!
  11. Really? A back and forth discussion teaching him to reason things out is treating him like he's mentally handicapped? Most adults should speak to each other this way, you know as a productive discourse. (btw isn't the r-word considered quite offensive?) What important info was dumped that required being more subtle? Well I thought that scene made Pod look good, which he deserves. Now Ellaria did try to get some from Olyvar but was denied. Which Oly better thank the seven that LF is out of town and not watching through some peephole, even Ros was not allowed to pick and choose and show preferences.... Oly even tried to deny Oberyn at first, who does this whore think he is? Some people *shakes head* LF would def sell him to some torturing murderer if he knew. (Yes I know it seems that Olyvar is running things, and like Ros ended up being was not expected to whore themselves out, but the young man did place himself in the middle of an orgy that I'm sure he was being well paid for and I don't think LF would be pleased he snubbed Ellaria like that.)
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