The Tower of Joy- What exactly happened?

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Why?

Aerys had told them to obey Rhaegar and Rhaegar had told them to stay there.

They were following their orders. The Targs were over and they were going down with the ship as they had more honour than other Kingsguard members.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

Ok, so Rhaegar is dead can they ever leave? "Rhaegar said to stay here"

Does someone need to tell them that they can leave?

Rhaegar is dead, has been for months. The King is dead and half of the Royal family is dead. There is a new King. It is either Viserys or it is the baby in the Tower.

Did they leave the Tower and go to Viserys or did they stay at the Tower?

[Blackfish Tully]

Aerys had told them to obey Rhaegar and Rhaegar had told them to stay there.

when did Aerys tell them to obey Rhaegar? I thought he sent Hightower there to drag Rhaegar back to Kings Landing .

Also where does it say that Rhaegar told them to stay there ? is that in the books ?

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Ok, so Rhaegar is dead can they ever leave? "Rhaegar said to stay here"

Does someone need to tell them that they can leave?

Rhaegar is dead, has been for months. The King is dead and half of the Royal family is dead. There is a new King. It is either Viserys or it is the baby in the Tower.

Did they leave the Tower and go to Viserys or did they stay at the Tower?

Or the King is Robert, who was the actual king at the time.

[Blackfish Tully]

As simple as 4 unproven assumptions, at least one of which (Jon was legitimate) is quite tenuous, another of which seems like cherry picking (they know about Aegon's death, but not about Aerys' decision to make Viserys his heir), "

Did anybody know about Aerys decision to make Viserys his heir? After the Battle of the Trident Kings Landing would have been a complete madhouse so I doubt that Aerys had much time to make a big deal about it , he was a little busy trying to destroy the city.

And frankly even if they heard about it they may ignore it . Aerys was dead and Jon was the rightful heir by the law of succession( if he was legitimate) so they would have decided he was king and stayed with him.

[Rippounet]

when did Aerys tell them to obey Rhaegar? I thought he sent Hightower there to drag Rhaegar back to Kings Landing .

You easily forget that Aerys was king. Technically the KG obey the king only, not the queen or the crown prince. This is why Aerys -in theory- needs to tell the KG to obey Rhaegar for them to do so.

This is theoretical though. I'm sure some of the KG were willing to obey Rhaegar as long as it didn't contradict an order from Aerys. Arthur Dayne especially, since he was basically Rhaegar's BFF.

Also where does it say that Rhaegar told them to stay there ? is that in the books ?

It's Martin's answer to the question "why did they stay there instead of protecting the royal family?"

Did anybody know about Aerys decision to make Viserys his heir? After the Battle of the Trident Kings Landing would have been a complete madhouse so I doubt that Aerys had much time to make a big deal about it , he was a little busy trying to destroy the city.

And frankly even if they heard about it they may ignore it . Aerys was dead and Jon was the rightful heir by the law of succession( if he was legitimate) so they would have decided he was king and stayed with him.

You easily forget that Aerys was king. The KG don't get to choose who is heir or he is not, the king does. And obeying the king is an important vow for the KG.

It's ironic that one would base Jon's legitimacy on the KG following their vows, but at the same time needs them to ignore them for that to work. Or, alternatively, that the theory needs the KG to be well informed enough to know about Aegon's death, but badly enough to not know about Viserys being the heir

When you have to defend contradictory views to support a theory, it generally means the theory doesn't hold much water.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Did anybody know about Aerys decision to make Viserys his heir? After the Battle of the Trident Kings Landing would have been a complete madhouse so I doubt that Aerys had much time to make a big deal about it , he was a little busy trying to destroy the city.

And frankly even if they heard about it they may ignore it . Aerys was dead and Jon was the rightful heir by the law of succession( if he was legitimate) so they would have decided he was king and stayed with him.

Did anyone know about Aegon's death? After the Battle of the Trident and Kings Landing, Kings Landing could have been a complete madhouse... To put this a different way, I think your arguments on this point are a bit *selective*.

Ignoring the King's order in favor of a pregnant woman's child is quite something. Is that consistent with your hypothesis that the KG's primary -- perhaps only -- motivation is to serve the king? And there is also the small matter of the KG ignoring the King who was crowned and sitting on the Iron Throne.

King Aerys' proclamation about his heir? Ignored.

King Aegon's inheritance of the throne? Ignored.

King (50% chance while Jon was in utero) Viserys? Ignored.

King Robert, crowned and sitting on the iron throne? Ignored.

You seem to be taking their vows extremely seriously while also taking them not seriously at all.

[stateofdissipation]

You easily forget that Aerys was king. Technically the KG obey the king only, not the queen or the crown prince. This is why Aerys -in theory- needs to tell the KG to obey Rhaegar for them to do so.

This is theoretical though. I'm sure some of the KG were willing to obey Rhaegar as long as it didn't contradict an order from Aerys. Arthur Dayne especially, since he was basically Rhaegar's BFF.

It's Martin's answer to the question "why did they stay there instead of protecting the royal family?"

You easily forget that Aerys was king. The KG don't get to choose who is heir or he is not, the king does. And obeying the king is an important vow for the KG.

It's ironic that one would base Jon's legitimacy on the KG following their vows, but at the same time needs them to ignore them for that to work. Or, alternatively, that the theory needs the KG to be well informed enough to know about Aegon's death, but badly enough to not know about Viserys being the heir

When you have to defend contradictory views to support a theory, it generally means the theory doesn't hold much water.

The funny thing is you can base Jon's legitimacy on Viserys being named heir....

Rhaegar setting aside Elia might remove Aegon from the line of succession....

We also have a recent concern by Cersei that she will be set aside--

We have Renly planning to have Robert marry Margery....

Instead we have kingsguard means king present...even if they have to wait 100 years.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Ok, so Rhaegar is dead can they ever leave? "Rhaegar said to stay here"

Does someone need to tell them that they can leave?

Rhaegar is dead, has been for months. The King is dead and half of the Royal family is dead. There is a new King. It is either Viserys or it is the baby in the Tower.

Did they leave the Tower and go to Viserys or did they stay at the Tower?

How would they have known for months?

Ned delivered the news to Mace and the Lords of the Reach in person that Aerys and Rhaegar had been killed and they were not hidden away.

The Tower of Joy is supposed to have been hidden away, meaning not much news. They would not have known for 'months'.

The first clue that Rhaegar had lost was probably Ned and his men arriving.

when did Aerys tell them to obey Rhaegar?

That much is obvious. Do you think the paranoid Aerys would have been OK with his Kingsguard doing what they wanted?

I thought he sent Hightower there to drag Rhaegar back to Kings Landing .

Drag? Nope. Tell him to return? Yes.

He didn't stay there on his own volition. He didn't take one look at the pregnant Lyanna and say "I better stay here just in case you, your father, your children and siblings all die".

Rhaegar gave him an order and he stayed.

Also where does it say that Rhaegar told them to stay there ? is that in the books ?

Do you think they chose to stay there?

That Rhaegar left for battle and they refused to come with him?

[stateofdissipation]

How would they have known for months?

Ned delivered the news to Mace and the Lords of the Reach in person that Aerys and Rhaegar had been killed and they were not hidden away.

The Tower of Joy is supposed to have been hidden away, meaning not much news. They would not have known for 'months'.

The first clue that Rhaegar had lost was probably Ned and his men arriving.

That much is obvious. Do you think the paranoid Aerys would have been OK with his Kingsguard doing what they wanted?

Drag? Nope. Tell him to return? Yes.

He didn't stay there on his own volition. He didn't take one look at the pregnant Lyanna and say "I better stay here just in case you, your father, your children and siblings all die".

Rhaegar gave him an order and he stayed.

Do you think they chose to stay there?

That Rhaegar left for battle and they refused to come with him?

We have Battle of the Bells, Ned going to get married... spending 2 weeks with Cat and making Robb,, Cat did not know she was pregnant when Ned left.

We have Battle of the bells, Hightower going to get Rhaegar and Rhaegar returning to King's Landing. Why do we think Rhaegar knew Lyanna was pregnant when he left?

Robb and Jon are of an age....

[Mal Malenkirk]

That much is obvious. Do you think the paranoid Aerys would have been OK with his Kingsguard doing what they wanted?

Frankly, I think paranoid Aerys would have been even less OK with the King's Guards obeying Rhaegar over himself. Aerys is paranoid but he's happy with half the king's guard off playing valet to his son?

Let's face it, these three guards at the Tower of Joys seems to have been more invested in defending Rhaegar's interests than their King's. Whatever the truth of the matter was, I expect it had more to do with personal loyalty to Rhaegar than doing their duty.

All things being equal, you'd expect freaking King's Guards to use their better judgement and return to King's Landing promptly when rebels are marching on the capital where the entire royal family is sheltered, even if the prince (who ain't the king!) order them not to. They followed Rhaegar's orders instead because they were in rebellion against the king, as far as I'm concerned.

I wouldn't be surprise if they were in direct violation of an order from the king, for that matter. What did Aerys order Hightower to do when he sent him to find Rhaegar?

''Go find my son, whose loyalty I am starting to doubt, and then do whatever he orders you to do. I won't need you back even though you are one my most experienced commander.''

Yeah, That doesn't seem likely. I expect it was more like:

-''You tell my hare-brained son, Dayne and Whent to get the fuck back in King's Landing with you ASAP to help me deal with the rebels. And bring that girl that caused so much trouble along, we'll use her as hostage against her traitor brother.''

But they didn't come back, against what all common sense says the king would have ordered. They were probably rebels to some degree (which is ironic).

[Rippounet]

We have Battle of the Bells, Ned going to get married... spending 2 weeks with Cat and making Robb,, Cat did not know she was pregnant when Ned left.

We have Battle of the bells, Hightower going to get Rhaegar and Rhaegar returning to King's Landing. Why do we think Rhaegar knew Lyanna was pregnant when he left?

Well the big difference is that when Hightower goes to get Rhaegar, Rhaegar has already spent several months with Lyanna.

We also assume Lyanna was pregnant when Rhaegar left to explain why she (and the KG) remained at the ToJ for so long.

[Rippounet]

Rhaegar setting aside Elia might remove Aegon from the line of succession....

I don't think so. Setting the wife aside does not change the son's legitimacy.

There could be complicated issues if the king had a son from each wife, but the elder would keep his rights unless the king said otherwise (or the elder son renounced his right to the throne).

This is a plot point of the Farseer Trilogy by Robin Hobb. ;)

[stateofdissipation]

Well the big difference is that when Hightower goes to get Rhaegar, Rhaegar has already spent several months with Lyanna.

We also assume Lyanna was pregnant when Rhaegar left to explain why she (and the KG) remained at the ToJ for so long.

So it took Rhaegar months longer to accomplish what Ned did in two weeks..... Jon is younger than Robb.

Several months... yikes

Nearly a year of rebellion to the sack---plus Rickard to KL plus Brandon to KL....

That really does not give several months between Gulltown and the battle of the bells... especially when there must be 9 months after the battle of the bells until Ned arrives at the tower of joy.

There reason the KG remained at the tower of joy... they were ordered.

if Rhaegar ordered them to stay there they would do that----GRRM

if Aerys ordered them to stay there they would do that---it follows

the only solid thing we have is.... they do not get to make up their own orders.

it is not like Lyanna's pregnancy or lack there of make their orders more or less valid....

We do not know how long it took after the battle of the bells for Rhaegar to show up... without it we can't know that Lyanna knew she was pregnant when Rhaegar left.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

We have Battle of the Bells, Ned going to get married... spending 2 weeks with Cat and making Robb,, Cat did not know she was pregnant when Ned left.

We have Battle of the bells, Hightower going to get Rhaegar and Rhaegar returning to King's Landing. Why do we think Rhaegar knew Lyanna was pregnant when he left?

Robb and Jon are of an age....

And?

No idea what point you are trying to make.

[stateofdissipation]

I don't think so. Setting the wife aside does not change the son's legitimacy.

There could be complicated issues if the king had a son from each wife, but the elder would keep his rights unless the king said otherwise (or the elder son renounced his right to the throne).

This is a plot point of the Farseer Trilogy by Robin Hobb. ;)

We have Cersei's fear and Renly's scheme... Both mention Lyanna...

Not exactly a blueprint for setting aside and the mechanics involved in it...

Setting aside a wife but maintaining her children as heirs seems a recipe for disaster....

The king dies.... his queen is regent until his son comes of age--- would the queen be the wife he set aside, the new king's mother?

would the queen-- the king's current wife be the regent?

It does not seem a good solution to set aside the marriage but maintain the heirs..

We have Elia held hostage... Rhaegar's dying breath of Lyanna.

Aegon gets passed over... it would seem Elia and kids were not given the royal treatment after Rhaegar started favoring Lyanna.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Frankly, I think paranoid Aerys would have been even less OK with the King's Guards obeying Rhaegar over himself. Aerys is paranoid but he's happy with half the king's guard off playing valet to his son?

Why would he not be?

This is a war and Rhaegar is his son and heir. Keeping him alive is pretty important. He sends both Barristan and Martell off with him as well.

Let's face it, these three guards at the Tower of Joys seems to have been more invested in defending Rhaegar's interests than their King's. Whatever the truth of the matter was, I expect it had more to do with personal loyalty to Rhaegar than doing their duty.

I dont doubt for a fact that they preferred Rhaegar to his insane father. But it is pretty clear from their conversation with Ned that Aerys was their King.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

If they are with Rhaegar and not Aerys then it is because Aerys has sanctioned it.

All things being equal, you'd expect freaking King's Guards to use their better judgement and return to King's Landing promptly when rebels are marching on the capital where the entire royal family is sheltered, even if the prince (who ain't the king!) order them not to. They followed Rhaegar's orders instead because they were in rebellion against the king, as far as I'm concerned.

How would they even know?

The rebels were not winning the war and Rhaegar outnumbered them at the Trident. Poor leadership meant that the rebellion was not squashed at the Battle of the Bells.

We dont know the exact timeline, for all we know that happened after Rhaegar had left the Tower of Joy.

But they didn't come back, against what all common sense says the king would have ordered. They were probably rebels to some degree (which is ironic).

No they were not. Do they sound like rebels when Ned confronts them at the Tower of Joy? NO.

[Blackfish Tully]

There reason the KG remained at the tower of joy... they were ordered.

if Rhaegar ordered them to stay there they would do that----GRRM

if Aerys ordered them to stay there they would do that---it follows

the only solid thing we have is.... they do not get to make up their own orders.

Rhaegar was dead and Aerys and Aegon were dead . Viserys was the King on the Iron Throne . There is no way that the only three living kingsguard members are going to abandon the rightful Targaryen King because they were ordered by a dead king and a dead prince to "stay at the tower" they are not robots following a computer program . They can make decisions , for gods sake sometimes kingsguard members lead armies so they clearly have the ability to make independent decisions. They only reason they would stay at the tower without breaking their vow as a kingsguard's member is because they are already guarding a King

[Rippounet]

So it took Rhaegar months longer to accomplish what Ned did in two weeks..... Jon is younger than Robb.

We do not know how long it took after the battle of the bells for Rhaegar to show up... without it we can't know that Lyanna knew she was pregnant when Rhaegar left.

No. But after the Trident the war is essentially won, so I've always assumed that it only took Ned about 3 months to reach King's Landing, lift the siege on Storm's End and reach the ToJ.

That's why I think Lyanna was already in her fourth or fifth month of pregnancy when Rhaegar left for the Trident.

There reason the KG remained at the tower of joy... they were ordered.

if Rhaegar ordered them to stay there they would do that----GRRM

if Aerys ordered them to stay there they would do that---it follows

the only solid thing we have is.... they do not get to make up their own orders.

it is not like Lyanna's pregnancy or lack there of make their orders more or less valid....

Well Lyanna being pregnant explains why she had to stay in the same place. An alternative explanation is that she had to remain hidden and/or that she was a prisoner.

But as I said above, I believe she was noticeably pregnant when Rhaegar left, and this explains why she had to remain for so long at the ToJ.

[Rippounet]

We have Cersei's fear and Renly's scheme... Both mention Lyanna...

Do they now? I'd forgotten that. Any chance you have a quote or two?

Elia being officially set aside would be very interesting.

I remember that SSM saying that the Dornish were upset about "Rhaegar's treatment of Elia" and I always wonder what it meant exactly.

[stateofdissipation]

Rhaegar was dead and Aerys and Aegon were dead . Viserys was the King on the Iron Throne . There is no way that the only three living kingsguard members are going to abandon the rightful Targaryen King because they were ordered by a dead king and a dead prince to "stay at the tower" they are not robots following a computer program . They can make decisions , for gods sake sometimes kingsguard members lead armies so they clearly have the ability to make independent decisions. They only reason they would stay at the tower without breaking their vow as a kingsguard's member is because they are already guarding a King

Rhaegar was dead and Aerys and Aegon were dead Viserys was the King on the Iron Throne .

Only Aerys and Viserys were kings...

There is no way that the only three living kingsguard members

Selmy was alive...

are going to abandon the rightful Targaryen King because they were ordered by a dead king and a dead prince to "stay at the tower"

the three kingsguard abandoned Aerys and Viserys because they were ordered by a king to do so.

If following an order equals abandonment, that is what we get....

they are not robots following a computer program . They can make decisions , for gods sake sometimes kingsguard members lead armies so they clearly have the ability to make independent decisions.

When they are ordered to....

They only reason they would stay at the tower without breaking their vow as a kingsguard's member is because they are already guarding a King.

They broke their vow when Jamie killed Aerys. The fact that they were not there to protect the king is because they stayed at the tower.

your answer to Shaw's question--- is not nearly as convincing as GRRM's