A Stark in Winterfell

[Blazfemur]

I'm very interested in the crypts, period. Not just for what they may be hiding down there for Jon, but everything! All the old statues with their iron swords, those statues with nothing left of their swords but rust, what happens now that some of the swords aren't with their lords to keep the spirits in place, and anything else is down there! Not just supernaturally, but just all the historical information! Those crypts are fascinating!

Think, larger. :)

i theorize she doesnt exist, but if The Night's Queen is anywhere -- she's imprisoned down there, in the deeper bowels of the crypts.

...perhaps that's why 13th lord commander Stark wants to break past the wall so badly..

*shrugs* or it's just a boring old harp that validates a boring overkilled theory

sucking away the life of the blatantly rotting and dying weirwood to keep herself alive, accepting the blood sacrifices ned stark always made, cleaning his greatsword, praying to the old gods by the pond. absorbing the surrounding cold, construed as making the walls abnormally warm..

disrupting the wards/seals that keep her in place, by NOT having the blood of a stark in winterfell to keep them active, angering her, conjuring a huge snowstorm in her wake.

"...there MUST always be a Stark, in Winterfell."

if she exists, she's a Dustin, you know. the barrow king's daughter herself.

but nah, you guys need your targaryen validation, right?

[Blazfemur]

maybe she's imprisoned, beneath the earth, in the very roots of the winterfell weirwood. like bloodraven, but absorbing its life. deep beneath the earth, in the crypt catacombs.

..perhaps when bloodraven dies, she's released

Something's coming

[Jak Scaletongue]

That's a very interesting idea, Blazfemur! I like it!

One question I've recently thought of, and this seems like as good as time as any to ask it - we all assume that the "corpse queen" was a Dustin, because that's what the stories imply and that's what the Worldbook hypothesized. Well, since we (as a forum) don't seem to take *anything* at face value, why are we taking this at face value? It's always seemed weird to me that the Starks rarely (if ever; and never as far as we readers are told) married into the Boltons? Who has a corpse as their sigil? Is it completely out of the realm of possibility that the "corpse queen" was a Bolton woman? And the NK and his "corpse queen" are the reason why Boltons and Starks don't seem to marry into the other's families anymore? Although, in all fairness, we as readers haven't seen a Dustin marry into the Starks either, afaik. And there are a LOT of gaps in our knowledge of the family trees of Westeros. It was just a random thought, not anything I'd bet money on!

I love the idea that there's a Bloodraven equivalent down in the roots of Winterfell's heart tree. That's something I'll have to think about!

[LmL]

Jon is more afraid of the crypts than anything, since he feels he doesn't belong there, since he is a Snow. This quote nails it, and I think he will eventually go down there.

"Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me." Jon to Sam

it doesn't actually say it, but I think the symbolism is in this passage:

En route to the Wall, Bran recalls that in addition to the swords taken by himself and Meera, Hodor took a much older rusted iron sword

Lightbringer doesn't rust, dawg!

And yes, something terrible is waiting for Jon, But I think the Stark ghosts want to keep him from it. And yes, of course he has to ultimately face whatever it is.

[LmL]

Think, larger. :)

i theorize she doesnt exist, but if The Night's Queen is anywhere -- she's imprisoned down there, in the deeper bowels of the crypts.

You've never once given a textual clue that backs up this idea that the NQ never existed. Did I just miss that or what? It's an interesting idea, but I don't see any evidence for it in the text, no similar examples of someone who didn't actually exist, nothing. You seem to have just invented it. It's all good to theorize, but you run around inserting this idea all over the place - do you have any evidence, i ask you? Where are the clues that imply she doesn't exist? I love outside the box ideas but if they are true, Martin leaves plenty of clues to find. Have you found any?

On the other hand we see Melisandre as a perfect fire equivalent to the NQ, implying that she did exist and was indeed a succubus.

...perhaps that's why 13th lord commander Stark wants to break past the wall so badly..

*shrugs* or it's just a boring old harp that validates a boring overkilled theory

sucking away the life of the blatantly rotting and dying weirwood to keep herself alive, accepting the blood sacrifices ned stark always made, cleaning his greatsword, praying to the old gods by the pond. absorbing the surrounding cold, construed as making the walls abnormally warm..

Huh what? What are you talking about? That thing is healthy and fierce. Is there ANY evidence to suggest that the Nights Queen is the real source of heat? I mean, that's just way out in left field without text support.

disrupting the wards/seals that keep her in place, by NOT having the blood of a stark in winterfell to keep them active, angering her, conjuring a huge snowstorm in her wake.

"...there MUST always be a Stark, in Winterfell."

if she exists, she's a Dustin, you know. the barrow king's daughter herself.

but nah, you guys need your targaryen validation, right?

[Blazfemur]

the evidence are the surrounding clues mentioned. i dont need to validate suspicion to anyone :)

regarding the weirwood. it's mentioned as being rotting and dying by catelyn when she sees ned after he kills the deserter. she recalls the weirwood in her hometown thrives, but the one in winterfell is decaying. reread it man, it's legit there

[Blazfemur]

That's a very interesting idea, Blazfemur! I like it!

One question I've recently thought of, and this seems like as good as time as any to ask it - we all assume that the "corpse queen" was a Dustin, because that's what the stories imply and that's what the Worldbook hypothesized. Well, since we (as a forum) don't seem to take *anything* at face value, why are we taking this at face value? It's always seemed weird to me that the Starks rarely (if ever; and never as far as we readers are told) married into the Boltons? Who has a corpse as their sigil? Is it completely out of the realm of possibility that the "corpse queen" was a Bolton woman? And the NK and his "corpse queen" are the reason why Boltons and Starks don't seem to marry into the other's families anymore? Although, in all fairness, we as readers haven't seen a Dustin marry into the Starks either, afaik. And there are a LOT of gaps in our knowledge of the family trees of Westeros. It was just a random thought, not anything I'd bet money on!

I love the idea that there's a Bloodraven equivalent down in the roots of Winterfell's heart tree. That's something I'll have to think about!

just an idea man, take it at face value. i fully know it could be wrong.

besides, i always theorize that there isnt a such thing as a female Other. none. this is just a what-if scenario

[LmL]

the evidence are the surrounding clues mentioned. i dont need to validate suspicion to anyone :)

regarding the weirwood. it's mentioned as being rotting and dying by catelyn when she sees ned after he kills the deserter. she recalls the weirwood in her hometown thrives, but the one in winterfell is decaying. reread it man, it's legit there

What clues that you mentioned? I don't see that you have presented any evidence at all for this idea. And yes, if you insist upon inserting this wild assertion into other people's threads, it seem at least courteous to explain why you think it is so. Just saying "I theorize" without supporting evidence is fan fiction. It's one thing to pose a question, but you assert this all the time as if it was a credible theory with supporting evidence. Is there any? Can you show it? What makes you think the NQ didn't exist?

Regarding the weir wood, you are simply wrong, I just looked. She smells rotting leaves in the godswood, which is natural in a forest, but not on the Weirwood. The Winterfell weirwood is never, in any book, described as sickly or unhealthy. Feel free to correct me if I am in error with a quote from the book. Theon sees it ADWD, and its a force as ever, angry in fact. Not rotting or sickly.

[Blazfemur]

I don't see that you have presented any evidence at all for this idea.

Then obviously you're free to amicably move on then, arent you?

[Jak Scaletongue]

just an idea man, take it at face value. i fully know it could be wrong.

besides, i always theorize that there isnt a such thing as a female Other. none. this is just a what-if scenario

I know it's just an idea - but it's idea that you've got stuck in my head! And that's not necessarily a bad thing (although the people who pay me may think otherwise...)!

And I'm still up in the air about the female Others - so far we've only seen "warriors" and human women don't fight (usually) so it's not too much of a stretch to imagine (for me anyway) that IF there are female Others, they're sitting at home like their human counterparts. Maybe looking after all the babies Craster keeps giving them...maybe. Who knows! Just because we haven't seen them, doesn't mean they don't exist; but, yeah, we haven't seen or heard of them either, so they may very well not exist. I guess we'll see! And I can't wait to find out more about the Others.

But I wasn't trying to say that I thought the "corpse queen" was an Other. I was wondering why, as far as I can tell, no one has suggested that instead of a Dustin she may have been a Bolton? Cause if she was a Dustin, that seems to imply a human (or part-human, or once a human), so would it be too hard to imagine that she was a Bolton woman instead? They've got an actual corpse on as their sigil. And they're light eyed and pale, too. It's the blue eyes Old Nan says she has that makes everyone think she was an Other, right? I'm just thinking out loud here, none of this is in anyway an actual, researched theory. And probably won't ever be (see next paragraph for indecisiveness!). And now I've lost my train of thought...

I like what-if scenarios! Really, I'm a big fan of alternative history, too, so "what-if's" are some of my favourite things! I, personally, try not to "always" theorize something, mostly because we just don't know until the series is done and because it may prevent me from looking at other people's theories with an open mind. But that's just me, I'm not saying you're wrong or bad for doing it, I'm just saying it's not something that works for me! But I'm pretty indecisive when it comes to real life, so it doesn't really surprise me that I'm indecisive when it comes to creating and reading theories!

[Blazfemur]

I know it's just an idea - but it's idea that you've got stuck in my head! And that's not necessarily a bad thing (although the people who pay me may think otherwise...)!

And I'm still up in the air about the female Others - so far we've only seen "warriors" and human women don't fight (usually) so it's not too much of a stretch to imagine (for me anyway) that IF there are female Others, they're sitting at home like their human counterparts. Maybe looking after all the babies Craster keeps giving them...maybe. Who knows! Just because we haven't seen them, doesn't mean they don't exist; but, yeah, we haven't seen or heard of them either, so they may very well not exist. I guess we'll see! And I can't wait to find out more about the Others.

But I wasn't trying to say that I thought the "corpse queen" was an Other. I was wondering why, as far as I can tell, no one has suggested that instead of a Dustin she may have been a Bolton? Cause if she was a Dustin, that seems to imply a human (or part-human, or once a human), so would it be too hard to imagine that she was a Bolton woman instead? They've got an actual corpse on as their sigil. And they're light eyed and pale, too. It's the blue eyes Old Nan says she has that makes everyone think she was an Other, right? I'm just thinking out loud here, none of this is in anyway an actual, researched theory. And probably won't ever be (see next paragraph for indecisiveness!). And now I've lost my train of thought...

I like what-if scenarios! Really, I'm a big fan of alternative history, too, so "what-if's" are some of my favourite things! I, personally, try not to "always" theorize something, mostly because we just don't know until the series is done and because it may prevent me from looking at other people's theories with an open mind. But that's just me, I'm not saying you're wrong or bad for doing it, I'm just saying it's not something that works for me! But I'm pretty indecisive when it comes to real life, so it doesn't really surprise me that I'm indecisive when it comes to creating and reading theories!

regarding the corpse queen.

if sansa became queen, a monicker they might give her, would be a wolf queen. daenerys to some, may be considered the "mad" dragon queen, or silver dragon queen, whatever. if the daughter of the barrow king ever came into power, theoretically, would it be too outrageous for her monicker to be the "corpse queen?"

i simply refer to her as a dustin because i thought i recalled hearing that barrow king's daughter conspiracy being a dustin. the wiki says so anyway. combining that the barrow king gave his daughter to the king of winter of winterfell, with how the night's king lost to his brother/king beyond the wall alliance, is how ill get to how the younger brother was originally sent to the wall and eventually became 13th lord commander, though thats admittedly JUST AN IDEA. the concept, is that the king of winter won the dustin barrow king's daughter, the future night's king fell for her, the king of winter found out, and exiled his own brother to join the watch, where he'd eventually become the 13th lord commander and night's king.

though, this is combining the simple Barrow King entry from the wiki with what we know of TNK's demise. The Night's King might have fallen at winterfell as listed, because he was trying to win her back. The barrow king's daughter doesnt have a time specification and is just lore apparently, but this would answer a lot of loose questions.

[Blazfemur]

The way I see it: the book series is coming to an end in the next 2 books: let's try and wrap these ideas up, eh?

[LmL]

Then obviously you're free to amicably move on then, arent you?

Why don't you want to show evidence for your own pet theory? Why should you want me or anyone to move on? I am not saying your idea isn't true - I am saying that I have not seen you cite any text that suggests it is true, or even plausible. I didn't say it doesn't exist - I asked you if you have any. Why present a theory and then refuse to give evidence for it?

Dude you know me, I am open to any damn wild idea. But it does have to have support in the text to be credible. And any idea that is credible WILL have support in the text. Is there any?

[Blazfemur]

Why don't you want to show evidence for your own pet theory? Why should you want me or anyone to move on? I am not saying your idea isn't true - I am saying that I have not seen you cite any text that suggests it is true, or even plausible. I didn't say it doesn't exist - I asked you if you have any. Why present a theory and then refuse to give evidence for it?

Dude you know me, I am open to any damn wild idea. But it does have to have support in the text to be credible. And any idea that is credible WILL have support in the text. Is there any?

because tnq being in winterfell's crypts is an idea, not a theory. the theory i focus on is the nonexistence of a female Other. for me, it's more believable the corpse queen was a normal human, perhaps pale like bloodraven, id even except an albino. the word of mouth that a female Other existed is from the mouths of the very watch that exiled the night's king and destroyed his records, so their word is the ONLY word you have to go on, correct? you think jon snow, will be written in the records as a geniune, noble, faithful to his cause leader? no, theyre going to villainize him. it goes deeper than typing a simple blurb of information. you know my theory by now obviously on how the others/the night's king and his 13 follow the basic tennets of the night's oath:

they TAKE children, so technically they FATHER none

they take ONLY the boys, so no females to wife/marry

theyre constantly on the move and nomadic, and there are no designated lands beyond the wall, so they hold no lands

her existence in the crypts is a "what-if" situation and the idea could validate why the king wants to break past that wall so badly. but the concept is if he's following the oath so much so far, why would he break it for a woman? unless the watch made her up as an excuse, is all im saying. that later on they deliberately destroyed his records, his name, and gossiped his name down the drain came later. his name was probably struck from the records at the request of that king of winter as to not sully the stark name

first and foremost, to me anyway, there's no female other. i see the night's king's backstory and time, as a mirror image, to how jon attempted to broker witht he wildlings, came back, the watch disapproved, and backstabbed him. the same goes PERHAPS with how the last hero PERHAPS went to go find the children, instead found Others, and perhaps made a temporary peace whicht he watch disapproved of. that the corpse queen was human is a totally different aspect to the idea

again *shrugs* im one of the few trying to wrap this up

[Blazfemur]

i dont want to turn this into another nights king thread though, it's not right haha

[LmL]

because tnq being in winterfell's crypts is an idea, not a theory. the theory i focus on is the nonexistence of a female Other. for me, it's more believable the corpse queen was a normal human, perhaps pale like bloodraven, id even except an albino. the word of mouth that a female Other existed is Sent from my iPad

they TAKE children, so technically they FATHER none

they take ONLY the boys, so no females to wife/marry

theyre constantly on the move and nomadic, and there are no designated lands beyond the wall, so they hold no lands

her existence in the crypts is a "what-if" situation and the idea could validate why the king wants to break past that wall so badly. but the concept is if he's following the oath so much so far, why would he break it for a woman? unless the watch made her up as an excuse, is all im saying. that later on they deliberately destroyed his records, his name, and gossiped his name down the drain came later. his name was probably struck from the records at the request of that king of winter as to not sully the stark name

first and foremost, to me anyway, there's no female other. i see the night's king's backstory and time, as a mirror image, to how jon attempted to broker witht he wildlings, came back, the watch disapproved, and backstabbed him. the same goes PERHAPS with how the last hero PERHAPS went to go find the children, instead found Others, and perhaps made a temporary peace whicht he watch disapproved of. that the corpse queen was human is a totally different aspect to the idea

again *shrugs* im one of the few trying to wrap this up

Ok, so there are a couple of different ideas floating around here. I agree the NW record may well be a one sided story if the reputation of a LC was at stake, no doubt. I have trouble with the idea that there was no female involved at all though. Usually lies are twisted versions of the truth. It doesn't make sense for them to invent this story about a Nights Queen if there was never any woman at all. But, just to entertain the idea, if it is true, we should be able to find symbolic references to things that aren't really there that have something to do with a queen, or another story about a Queen who turned out to never have existed. Something like that. Martin is very, very good about leaving those breadcrumbs to follow. Any theory or speculation will either be borne out or not by looking for those clues.

I tend to agree with you that there may well be no female Other. I tend to buy Voice of the First Men's 3 tier hierarchy of Others, the idea of which being that the "Others" we see are actually the White Walkers - baby boys turned into White Walkers. Craster's sons. The real Others are the ones who ride the Ice Spiders, and we may not have even seen those yet. The point is that those ancient Others, the real Others, are probably neither female nor male, as dragons are in most mythology and may well be in ASOIAF. Craters sons are obviously male. If there are no Ancient Others, just the White Walkers, that implies that the original WW ere men who discovered magic and were converted to WW, just as Craster's sons are. Either way, we have not seen a female WW or Other, and that may well be for a reason.

As for the Night's Queen, the daughter of the Barrow King is definitely in play, but what does that mean? Was she undead in some way? The eyes like blue stars is hard to get around - only Others and Wights have those for sure, and maybe Ice Dragons if they exist, and those black tailed mermaids in the shivering sea, which seem like weighted mermaids or something. Anyway, the Barrow King is tied to this curse which makes the offender gradually turn corpse like, so there's a very grey area (pun intended) here between live and death surrounding the Barrow King and the NQ if she is his daughter.

The Nights Queen cannot be a full Other, to me, simply because a full Other could not live in a castle full of people. Others freeze the air around them so badly that cohabitation would simply be impossible, unless everyone in the castle was undead. And I don't buy a human male choosing to have sex with an Other... cold feet in bed are the worst. Awkward.

No, if the Nights Queen is "Otherish," meaning having blue star eyes and Ice Magic inside her, then I would guess she is a hybrid offspring. Old Nan says wildlings women "lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half- human children." I always thought this was the likely source of the Nights Queen. A hybrid-Other woman may well be beautiful, but cold in the way Melisandre is hot. Mel doesn't need to eat or sleep, but she isn't dead. The fire is "inside her, transforming her." I really think that Mel seems like a direct analog to the Night's Queen, laying with a King and draining his life force to birth magical beings. It says the NK sacrificed to the Others, which I take to mean doing what Craster did - that's where I get the idea that the NQ / NK babies were being sacrificed (given) to the Others. Think about it - it makes sense. These babies would be 1/4 Other, probably easy to convert. Perhaps this is necessary for conversion, even. Craster has "a cold smell about him," which could be simply because he "worships" the WW, or it could imply a bit of Other ancestory.

Really, it's an open question whether it is possible for humans to have Other "blood" or lineage. I saw it is, because Old Nan is always right :) and because we have at least one fire person who isn't dead but isn't quite human either. Now, if it is possible to have Other blood, the Starks obviously have some. It would really make sense as an opposite to blood of the dragon (which I absolutely believe to be more than a saying). The Nights Queen may be how Other blood got into the Stark Line anyway. "Kings of Winter," think about it. The Ned doesn't seem to feel the cold, although Starks do at various times.

As for the Nights Queen in the crypts. SOME DAMN THING is in the crypts, that's for sure. But I find that cold black pond in front of the heart tree even more mysterious. All the other water around the godswood is warm, but for this black pond. It is ALWAYS described as cold and black. What's up with this? If I were you and looking for evidence to support this possibility, I might start there. I don't think it makes sense that she is warming things up by absorbing cold. Absorbing cold doesn't generate heat. Heat is energy, it has to come from somewhere. Something hot. I'd also take a look at the gargoyles. Gargoyles are for warding away evil spirits, and they only appear on the First Keep above the crypts and on Dragonstone, nowhere else in Westeros. That's no coincidence.

The King in the Crypts - what are they doing? They say the swords are to keep the spirits in their crypts. But that doesn't follow, to me. A sword across the lap is a denial of guest right. Robb does this to Tyrion when he comes back from the wall, which is what I am talking about when I talk about bread crumbs. Robb, the future King in the North, sitting in the high seat of Winterfell, lays a sword across his lap, just like the kings in the crypts. If Tyrion is a Targ (wake up and smell the coffee, folks) then Robb was even denying guest right to a dragon blooded person. Jon, a dragon person, feels the hostility of the Kings of Winter when he's down there.

Because of my astronomy theory research, I believe that Ned's sword is lightbringer, Azor Ahai's sword (also the dragon steel of the Last Hero, same sword). If this is so, what we have is an ice-blooded person keeping the fire sword handy in case the Others attack. In the meantime, he honors the old gods (earth), dipping the fire sword in a cold pool in front of the heart tree. To me, this fits with the "Stark in Winterfell" idea to create the image of a sacred ritual. By keeping the fire sword at Winterfell, he's keeping it safe from dragon people who would abuse it to conquer, as Azor Ahai did - hence my idea that the gargoyles and Kings of Winter are warding against dragon people. The Starks may be maintaining a balance between ice and fire magic, aided by the earth magic of the old gods as a medium. This is what has kept the LN at bay, perhaps.

[Blazfemur]

Ok, so there are a couple of different ideas floating around here. I agree the NW record may well be a one sided story if the reputation of a LC was at stake, no doubt. I have trouble with the idea that there was no female involved at all though. Usually lies are twisted versions of the truth. It doesn't make sense for them to invent this story about a Nights Queen if there was never any woman at all. But, just to entertain the idea, if it is true, we should be able to find symbolic references to things that aren't really there that have something to do with a queen, or another story about a Queen who turned out to never have existed. Something like that. Martin is very, very good about leaving those breadcrumbs to follow. Any theory or speculation will either be borne out or not by looking for those clues.

Consider the twisted version of the truth: King Of Winter wins a dustin barrow king daughter, his younger brother falls in love with her, the king of winter discovers this, exiles his younger brother to the wall. Younger brother does his thing, becomes nights king, makes a return to winterfell to win her or take her after 13 years, loses, winter falls (as is the name of his defeat), gets exiled by the watch, king of winter orders his name struck as to not embarass the Stark name. and technically, he did it for a girl. if the daughter married that king of winter, she was a queen. and as the barrow king's daughter, perhaps her nickname, was "corpse queen."

I tend to agree with you that there may well be no female Other. I tend to buy Voice of the First Men's 3 tier hierarchy of Others, the idea of which being that the "Others" we see are actually the White Walkers - baby boys turned into White Walkers. Craster's sons. The real Others are the ones who ride the Ice Spiders, and we may not have even seen those yet. The point is that those ancient Others, the real Others, are probably neither female nor male, as dragons are in most mythology and may well be in ASOIAF. Craters sons are obviously male. If there are no Ancient Others, just the White Walkers, that implies that the original WW ere men who discovered magic and were converted to WW, just as Craster's sons are. Either way, we have not seen a female WW or Other, and that may well be for a reason.

Well, there are tiers, that much is confirmed. The original First Men, that inherited the Ice Gift through some means (as the power can be transferred, as we've seen, an di tend to believe the Fomas TWOIAF interpretation of Others), then there are the babies that are taken, and given the gift, who, actually i believe it was Voice and I, we called the Neverborn, as GRRM called them originally because, technically, they weren't born into the power and inherited it through transfer. The original First Men gained their power this way. Then there were those even older that were born into the power, this is that foreign elven-like race GRRM described, the genuine nes with foreign ancient tongue, shimmering armor and weapons. Of course, then we have wights, which could make male and female, human and animal, respectively. The "invention" of a female Other I'd consider blasphemy to the tiers we've seen.

As for the Night's Queen, the daughter of the Barrow King is definitely in play, but what does that mean? Was she undead in some way? The eyes like blue stars is hard to get around - only Others and Wights have those for sure, and maybe Ice Dragons if they exist, and those black tailed mermaids in the shivering sea, which seem like weighted mermaids or something. Anyway, the Barrow King is tied to this curse which makes the offender gradually turn corpse like, so there's a very grey area (pun intended) here between live and death surrounding the Barrow King and the NQ if she is his daughter.

NO! I wouldn't consider her undead. She's just a human with a minicker -- like a wolf queen, or a dragon queen. The "corpse queen" is the daughter one the barrow king that presided over barrows and graves. She could have just been beautiful with blue eyes, and pale skin, perhaps an albino. How often do we hear of women swooning over the eyes of the targaryens? If purple, why not blue? Just because they were blue, doesnt mean they glow. Ice Dragons DO NOT exist in the literal form either. All the dragons we've seen, the different colors, different colors of the flames to match their color palette, not once, were they another element. they were always fire, be it a different color, but always flame. a metaphorical ice dragon can certainly exist, ie is Jon ends up half Targ. OR, and this could certainly be a route that makes an Ice Dragon, one of Daenerys' dragons fall in battle, and get resurrected necromantically, with glowing blue eyes. THEN, and only then, would I believe a cold-breathing, rotting dragon. Regarding the daughter though, she also could have been sickly, appearing corpselike. The dead can carry disease as it eats away at the flesh, and if they maintain graves, perhaps it was passed on. But this is stretching it, im putting my money on corpse queen, being a monicker for her family's known class.

The Nights Queen cannot be a full Other, to me, simply because a full Other could not live in a castle full of people. Others freeze the air around them so badly that cohabitation would simply be impossible, unless everyone in the castle was undead. And I don't buy a human male choosing to have sex with an Other... cold feet in bed are the worst. Awkward.

I honestly cant even debate the possibility because mentally im too far into her nonexistence. The logistics of her being in the vicinity of people cant compute, literally. IF she existed/exists, i want to see it when the last hero went to find the children, found Others, and thats where they met. Perhaps he took her back to the Watch and their union was a temporary pact. But thats if she existed, which, tome, she does not. It's a misconstrued tale over time of the barrow king's daughter who may have been albino to validate pale skin. nothing more. All the villainization of TNK is word of mouth, and it's even further insultt hat his name was struck just to prevent the downtalk of the name Stark.

No, if the Nights Queen is "Otherish," meaning having blue star eyes and Ice Magic inside her, then I would guess she is a hybrid offspring. Old Nan says wildlings women "lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half- human children." I always thought this was the likely source of the Nights Queen. A hybrid-Other woman may well be beautiful, but cold in the way Melisandre is hot. Mel doesn't need to eat or sleep, but she isn't dead. The fire is "inside her, transforming her." I really think that Mel seems like a direct analog to the Night's Queen, laying with a King and draining his life force to birth magical beings. It says the NK sacrificed to the Others, which I take to mean doing what Craster did - that's where I get the idea that the NQ / NK babies were being sacrificed (given) to the Others. Think about it - it makes sense. These babies would be 1/4 Other, probably easy to convert. Perhaps this is necessary for conversion, even. Craster has "a cold smell about him," which could be simply because he "worships" the WW, or it could imply a bit of Other ancestory.

Brainstorm idea: perhaps there are no female Others, but the act of the night's queen, was an abomination, even to their race? Simply just wrong, to produce (or give), the ice gift to a female? TNQ could certainly have been a Neverborn, or even granted it later on in life. We simply dont have the information. Again, assuming she's real and not misconstrued rumor.

Really, it's an open question whether it is possible for humans to have Other "blood" or lineage. I saw it is, because Old Nan is always right :) and because we have at least one fire person who isn't dead but isn't quite human either. Now, if it is possible to have Other blood, the Starks obviously have some. It would really make sense as an opposite to blood of the dragon (which I absolutely believe to be more than a saying). The Nights Queen may be how Other blood got into the Stark Line anyway. "Kings of Winter," think about it. The Ned doesn't seem to feel the cold, although Starks do at various times.

Here's where my genius intellect comes into play: like Targaryen's incest being a catalyst to more dominantly manipulate dragons than other valyrian households (keeping the bloodline pure/potenizing the proper ingredients in the blood by eliminating lesser bloods), the coldside has something similar: Craster. Incestual First Men blood. Was he really "protecting" his daughters, or preventing contamination? Perhaps First Men blood is a catalyst, and the more pure the bloodline is, grants some circumstantial degree of power or longevity. He was preventing outside bloodlines from contaminating the process, and thats what it was, a process.

As for the Nights Queen in the crypts. SOME DAMN THING is in the crypts, that's for sure. But I find that cold black pond in front of the heart tree even more mysterious. All the other water around the godswood is warm, but for this black pond. It is ALWAYS described as cold and black. What's up with this? If I were you and looking for evidence to support this possibility, I might start there. I don't think it makes sense that she is warming things up by absorbing cold. Absorbing cold doesn't generate heat. Heat is energy, it has to come from somewhere. Something hot. I'd also take a look at the gargoyles. Gargoyles are for warding away evil spirits, and they only appear on the First Keep above the crypts and on Dragonstone, nowhere else in Westeros. That's no coincidence.

Whats to say her body isnt at the bottom of the pond, then? Perhaps she doesnt need to breathe, and still exists in it's depths.. ;)

The King in the Crypts - what are they doing? They say the swords are to keep the spirits in their crypts. But that doesn't follow, to me. A sword across the lap is a denial of guest right. Robb does this to Tyrion when he comes back from the wall, which is what I am talking about when I talk about bread crumbs. Robb, the future King in the North, sitting in the high seat of Winterfell, lays a sword across his lap, just like the kings in the crypts. If Tyrion is a Targ (wake up and smell the coffee, folks) then Robb was even denying guest right to a dragon blooded person. Jon, a dragon person, feels the hostility of the Kings of Winter when he's down there.

I always attributed the iron blades as the andals vs the first men. The first men were slaughtered, because they carried bronze, and the andals fought them with superior iron. First Men resting swords of iron symbolically shows submission to the andals. if i recall, werent andals the first watch? and those that refused to kneel, remained north (now named, wildlings), while those that accepted andal dominion remained south? i could be wrong, but statues of first men bearing iron blades and abandoning the broze could symbolically mean acceptance and submission) .

Because of my astronomy theory research, I believe that Ned's sword is lightbringer, Azor Ahai's sword (also the dragon steel of the Last Hero, same sword). If this is so, what we have is an ice-blooded person keeping the fire sword handy in case the Others attack. In the meantime, he honors the old gods (earth), dipping the fire sword in a cold pool in front of the heart tree. To me, this fits with the "Stark in Winterfell" idea to create the image of a sacred ritual. By keeping the fire sword at Winterfell, he's keeping it safe from dragon people who would abuse it to conquer, as Azor Ahai did - hence my idea that the gargoyles and Kings of Winter are warding against dragon people. The Starks may be maintaining a balance between ice and fire magic, aided by the earth magic of the old gods as a medium. This is what has kept the LN at bay, perhaps.

Im not really a believer of ancient prophecies being reborn and living anew. the ONLY way I see Lightbringer coming into play, lets see.

Ok, whats the only living/unliving being that demonstrates rh'llor's magic perfectly? Beric and The Lady. Right there, immediate acceptance of rh'llor's magic, transferring from one being to another (much like the Ice Gift). How do you see that playing out? Well, and again crazy ideas with no relevance, Arya's storyline has been to abandon her former self, become no one, kill mercifully, and know it's not her that determines who lives or dies. Suppose this "no one" got a hit to kill, a Lady Tyrant in the riverlands thats terrifying the area. They get her to travel there, she doesnt know who this Lady Stoneheart is, obviously. They meet. Seeing Arya, i think would be the

one thing that melts Catelyn's rage. She could finally be put to rest. She asks Arya to put her down. Tears in her eyes, Arya fights it at first, but inevitably kills mercifully, fulfilling her training as a faceless man, and the magic that kept beric/catelyn alive seeps into Arya's sword (Needle?!). Catelyn becomes Arya's Nissa Nissa, Needle becomes Lightbringer.

Dont ever read that garbage again, that is the one form of fan fiction ill admit to believing in wholeheartedly because I want it to happen hahaha.

My answers bolded above