Marcel Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 That Lyanna was abducted was never clear. The only fact we have is that she disappeared next to Harrenhal. I believe she was sent by her father to Starfall because Ashara was pregnant, but Rickard wanted to keep it secret from Hoster Tully and Brandon until after his marriage to Catelyn. Rickard probably was considering to ask Ned to be the fathet of such child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Where is it written that Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent abducted Lyanna? That's a very important piece of information. Two reasons at least: - Kingsguard knights could definitely be acting on Aerys's orders, while others could think they had been ordered by Rhaegar. - Arthur Dayne could probably be mistaken for Rhaegar from a distance, couldn't he? He'd have had both the looks and the skill. I don't even remember. Anyone have the eBooks and a search function so we can find this out? Arthur could be mistaken for Rhaegar but then someone also has to be mistaken for Arthur. He can't be himself and Rhaegar's stunt double at the same time. That I didn't take into account, so an open rebellion against his father is a definite no go. But if we accept that Aerys kidnapped Lyanna and Rhaegar didn't know, Rhaegar could and should openly claim his innocence. He wouldn't have known his wife and children were as risk if he did so Rhaegar would have to have known about the kidnapping before he even could proclaim his innocence. And he knew Daddy Dearest was bonkers, and didn't like Elia and her Dornish-smelling daughter. Not a stretch to think Aerys might pull something. Wasn't Rhaegar's family at Dragonstone when he disappeared? So unless everyone at DS was a hardcore Aerys loyalist, I think that would be an unfounded fear. Particularly as he could always move them somewhere he felt was safer. Do you think it's unlikely that anyone on Dragonstone, the seat of the heir for House Targaryen, would go against their king? I don't. If Rhaegar left to find Lyanna, and hopefully avoid all-out war, he might not be able to get his family safely out of Aerys' reach. Even if he gave orders to have them moved, Aerys could countermand those orders. I was discussing this matter with Ygrain in the topic you mentioned. I can't make long posts for now because I am in the middle of a trip. But as soon as I am back to my home I intend to continue the discussion on that topic regarding Lyanna's reason to run off. But I believe that the crown was a message to Brandon, because he used his status as a heir to a great Lord to dishonour Ashara and get free from that. Rhaegar message was like that: you can't seduce and dishonour any woman you want, because someday someone can do the same to your sister. This made Brandon a little paranoic regarding Lyanna's honour, so when someone told him that she went to somewhere else with the prince, Brandon over reacted. We don't know WHO dishonored Ashara. It could have been Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 That Lyanna was abducted was never clear. The only fact we have is that she disappeared next to Harrenhal. I believe she was sent by her father to Starfall because Ashara was pregnant, but Rickard wanted to keep it secret from Hoster Tully and Brandon until after his marriage to Catelyn. Rickard probably was considering to ask Ned to be the fathet of such child. True, but the abduction is the official story. We can't entirely discount it at this point. You're assuming 1) that Ashara got pregnant while Brandon was alive; 2) that Rickard would send Lyanna clear across the country without informing anyone about it, including her betrothed; 3) that Brandon's fathering a child would have in any way mattered to Hoster Tully. Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal. That does not mean she got pregnant there. She is said to have had a stillborn daughter but Barristan (the information source on the baby) seems to think that she gave birth shortly before her suicide, which means Brandon was already dead before the child was conceived. Could Barristan be wrong? Sure, but we have no information to the contrary thus far. Rickard could easily have sent Lyanna to visit with House Dayne without telling anyone the real reason for it, but you do not send your maiden daughter to attend a birth. Unmarried girls were kept from those things. And even if he didn't want Hoster to know about the baby, there's no reason Brandon couldn't be told where his sister was going. Hoster Tully had a shot for his daughter to be Lady Stark, wife to the Warden of the North, mother to the next Warden of the North. You think he'd let one bastard get in the way of that? Lysa was a different story. A girl having a bastard child destroys her reputation. A man having one is considered an inconvenience, but not a big deal. The marriage between Catelyn and Brandon would go through regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcel Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 We don't know WHO dishonored Ashara. It could have been Robert.Yes, it could have been Robert. But Robert acknowledged Edric Storm, because his mother was a highborn lady. If he had a child with Ashara, he probably would do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcel Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 If Rhaegar said that he could legitimize Ashara's child when he became king, that would matter a lot to Brandon and Hoster Tully. I believe that Rhaegar made some agreement with Rickard regarding this matter and Lyanna was the one he entrusted to go to Starfall. She probably was more interested in the lone wolf pup in Dorne than the politics of her father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robb-TheYoungWolf Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 This all seems a bit convoluted. I plead occam's razor here. Brandon was offended because Lyanna was already betrothed and it's improper for Rhaegar to give Lyanna the prize. Rhaegar either abducted Lyanna because of the prophecy or because he caught her as the Knight of the Laughing Tree and became attracted to her (or more likely a combination of both). Lyanna clearly was smitten with him and was reluctant to marry Robert which is supported by the text. Neither of them knew that absconding would lead to civil war and the deaths of their loved ones. Sure, people would have been pissed but civil war? I don't think they predicted that. Rhaegar took Lyanna to the TOJ because he'd been there before and liked it, plus he knew it was remote and secret- in other words a good place to hide out. Nothing in your theory (other than the fact the Aerys was suspicious about Rhaegar) is supported by the text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcel Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I believe that if we want to discover the truth regarding all this affair between Lyanna and Rhaegar, the essential event is his decision to give the crown of blue winter roses to Lyanna. It's the greatest mystery to me. There is no reason to believe it was for love, nor because he need an ice maiden to be the mother of some TPTWP. I don't think such act had any romantic connotation but once we understand his motivation, everything will be clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monoman32 Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I still prefer my theory that Lyanna went to Starfall under Rickard's orders. She should be with Ashara for Brandon's child birth. Rhaegar, Dayne and Whent escorted Lyanna to Starfall and they traveled by boat. They received the news about Aerys' acts there. With her father and older brother dead, Ned's head demanded by the king and without news regarding Benjen, Lyanna asked Rhaegar to get her pregnant, to preserve the lineage of the Starks. That's the reason Ned put a statue of Lyanna among Winterfell's kings and Lords. So Robert's Rebellion was just a giant misunderstanding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcel Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 “They shoved him down every time he tried to rise, and kicked him when he curled up on the ground. But then they heard a roar. ‘That’s my father’s man you’re kicking,’ howled the she-wolf.” Interesting choice of words, isn't it? Lyanna defended Howland Reed because he was a vassal of her father, it was an attack against House Stark honour and to defend him was her obligation as the daughter of Howland Reed's liege Lord. It wasn't just because Howland Reed was defenceless. So, she undertood her obligations as a Stark very well. Why would she run away and dishonour her family? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcel Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 So Robert's Rebellion was just a giant misunderstanding?Brandon's and Aerys' s actions helped a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat of the Rivers Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 This all seems a bit convoluted. I plead occam's razor here. Brandon was offended because Lyanna was already betrothed and it's improper for Rhaegar to give Lyanna the prize. Rhaegar either abducted Lyanna because of the prophecy or because he caught her as the Knight of the Laughing Tree and became attracted to her (or more likely a combination of both). Lyanna clearly was smitten with him and was reluctant to marry Robert which is supported by the text. Neither of them knew that absconding would lead to civil war and the deaths of their loved ones. Sure, people would have been pissed but civil war? I don't think they predicted that. Rhaegar took Lyanna to the TOJ because he'd been there before and liked it, plus he knew it was remote and secret- in other words a good place to hide out. Nothing in your theory (other than the fact the Aerys was suspicious about Rhaegar) is supported by the text. :agree: If you're talking about his reaction to the garland, it's in the World book, at the top of page 127. Brandon's outrage is very intriguing to me. It somehow suggests Brandon already had reasons to be angry at Rhaegar. It could have to do with the whole KofLT thing. But I'm not sure it's linked to Lyanna's abduction. IIRC even Ned was displeased by the situation though he had a much more calmer reaction towards the situation due to his temperament. If Rhaegar said that he could legitimize Ashara's child when he became king, that would matter a lot to Brandon and Hoster Tully. I believe that Rhaegar made some agreement with Rickard regarding this matter and Lyanna was the one he entrusted to go to Starfall. She probably was more interested in the lone wolf pup in Dorne than the politics of her father. Why would Rickard want this? It ruins all his plans for Brandon. Yes, it could have been Robert. But Robert acknowledged Edric Storm, because his mother was a highborn lady. If he had a child with Ashara, he probably would do the same. "Recongizing" is a very, very different from "legitimizing." Notice how Edric's last name is "Storm." If he was legitimized it would be "Baratheon." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monoman32 Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Brandon's and Aerys' s actions helped a lot. So you admit that that Robert's Rebellion was just a misunderstanding??? The event that effectively impacted every major character in the story one way or another is just a misunderstanding?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Estermont Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Robert's rebellion was not triggered by abduction of Lyanna, but by Aerys II request that Jon Arryn should surrender him Ned's and Robert's heads. As for the rest, I do agree the most believed version makes no sense, but that's where my agreement with your post ends. Aerys abducting Lyanna is absolutely unsupported by the text. And you provided no evidence at all. So, all in all, good thinking out of the box, but textually unsupported. to be honest all theories are usupported ,you may have clues which give a theory a base but in the case of roberts rebellion there is little evidence about any theory, southron ambitions for example is an excellent theory but little written evidence only hints Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcel Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 So you admit that that Robert's Rebellion was just a misunderstanding??? The event that effectively impacted every major character in the story one way or another is just a misunderstanding??Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Estermont Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I believe that if we want to discover the truth regarding all this affair between Lyanna and Rhaegar, the essential event is his decision to give the crown of blue winter roses to Lyanna. It's the greatest mystery to me. There is no reason to believe it was for love, nor because he need an ice maiden to be the mother of some TPTWP. I don't think such act had any romantic connotation but once we understand his motivation, everything will be clear. completely agreed, this is the biggest mystery once solved, jon snows parentage and rheagars true intentions will be revealed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Estermont Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I believe that if we want to discover the truth regarding all this affair between Lyanna and Rhaegar, the essential event is his decision to give the crown of blue winter roses to Lyanna. It's the greatest mystery to me. There is no reason to believe it was for love, nor because he need an ice maiden to be the mother of some TPTWP. I don't think such act had any romantic connotation but once we understand his motivation, everything will be clear. completely agreed, this is the biggest mystery once solved, jon snows parentage and rheagars true intentions will be revealed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Estermont Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I believe that if we want to discover the truth regarding all this affair between Lyanna and Rhaegar, the essential event is his decision to give the crown of blue winter roses to Lyanna. It's the greatest mystery to me. There is no reason to believe it was for love, nor because he need an ice maiden to be the mother of some TPTWP. I don't think such act had any romantic connotation but once we understand his motivation, everything will be clear. completely agreed, this is the biggest mystery once solved, jon snows parentage and rheagars true intentions will be revealed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcel Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Why would Rickard want this? It ruins all his plans for Brandon. "Recongizing" is a very, very different from "legitimizing." Notice how Edric's last name is "Storm." If he was legitimized it would be "Baratheon." First, I said that Rhaegar's power to legitimize Ashara's child could be a leverage against Rickard (it was something that would matter a lot to Hoster Tully and Brandon Stark). Then they (Rickard and Rhaegar) finally reached some agreement. Second, I never said Robert legitimized Edric, but that he acknowledged him. It's possible that Brandon refused to do that. And if the general opinion is that Robert would be a husband so bad in Lyanna's view for being the father of a bastard in the Valley of Arryn, a husband so bad that she would choose to run away to avoid such marriage, what would be her opinion after learning that her brother did the same? With her temperament, she would go to her brother's wedding or would go after the child? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcel Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 There is no evidence that Lyanna was in love with Rhaegar, that Rhaegar was in love with her, that Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecies, that Lyanna would care about Rhaegar's prophecies and that both would run away and disappear without worrying about the consequences. These assumptions are all "a bit convoluted" too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monoman32 Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 There is no evidence that Lyanna was in love with Rhaegar, that Rhaegar was in love with her, that Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecies, that Lyanna would care about Rhaegar's prophecies and that both would run away and disappear without worrying about the consequences. These assumptions are all "a bit convoluted" too. Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy, he messaged his great uncle hundreds of miles away to talk about prophecy, on the day his son was born he was talking about The Prince that was Promised, and the Song of Ice and Fire, and the Three Heads of the Dragon. Does every Father do that when his son is born? So yes there is evidence to suggest that Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecies. Ser Barristan says that "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it." We also know that Lyanna cried when she heard Rhaegar sing. Ser Barristan also says that "fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time" Lyanna is a young girl and Rhaegar is fire. Not the best evidence, but it's better than your evidence for your assumptions. The assumptions that you make are more convoluted. A child of Lyanna and Rhaegar wouldn't be a Stark, the child could not continue the Stark lineage. Any child of Rhaegar and Lyanna would either be bastard or a Targaryen. Rhaegar is not King so he cannot legitimize anybody and given how paranoid Aerys was I doubt he would have done something that Rhaegar requests, and why would Rhaegar even care about a potential bastard child between Brandon and Ashara? Because of her connection to Elia and/or Arthur? He would travel all the way to Starfall for this minor issue that doesn't really concern him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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