R+L = J (?) An alternative explanation for Robert's Rebellion

[Snows Queen]

We do know that for a year no one knew where she and Rhaegar were. How is that obvious that she went willingly? How since there was nothing to say that she went willingly Brandon should know that she went willingly?

I ask you again when a teen disappears with an adult what should happen? Call the police and look for them or just assume they left together willingly? When someone said to be that the logical thing for a sibling or a parent is to let it be and not call the police or search for them because they might went together willingly then I will call it bs.

If you don't agree with my sig you are free to go to each thread and say that. I however cannot just not say that something is illogical and ridiculous.

I am a mother and I can honestly say that if my teenage daughter took off with a young handsome prince I would try to find her and find out what is going on before I went to the police. Now if I can not find her that would be a step I would take. Do you believe when a teenager runs away the parents don't look for the child with their friends and hang outs before they call the police?

[Snows Queen]

We do know that for a year no one knew where she and Rhaegar were. How is that obvious that she went willingly? How since there was nothing to say that she went willingly Brandon should know that she went willingly?

I ask you again when a teen disappears with an adult what should happen? Call the police and look for them or just assume they left together willingly? When someone said to be that the logical thing for a sibling or a parent is to let it be and not call the police or search for them because they might went together willingly then I will call it bs.

If you don't agree with my sig you are free to go to each thread and say that. I however cannot just not say that something is illogical and ridiculous.

I am a mother and I can honestly say that if my teenage daughter took off with a young handsome prince I would try to find her and find out what is going on before I went to the police. Now if I can not find her that would be a step I would take. Do you believe when a teenager runs away the parents don't look for the child with their friends and hang outs before they call the police?

[Snows Queen]

We do know that for a year no one knew where she and Rhaegar were. How is that obvious that she went willingly? How since there was nothing to say that she went willingly Brandon should know that she went willingly?

I ask you again when a teen disappears with an adult what should happen? Call the police and look for them or just assume they left together willingly? When someone said to be that the logical thing for a sibling or a parent is to let it be and not call the police or search for them because they might went together willingly then I will call it bs.

If you don't agree with my sig you are free to go to each thread and say that. I however cannot just not say that something is illogical and ridiculous.

I am a mother and I can honestly say that if my teenage daughter took off with a young handsome prince I would try to find her and find out what is going on before I went to the police. Now if I can not find her that would be a step I would take. Do you believe when a teenager runs away the parents don't look for the child with their friends and hang outs before they call the police?

[Snows Queen]

We do know that for a year no one knew where she and Rhaegar were. How is that obvious that she went willingly? How since there was nothing to say that she went willingly Brandon should know that she went willingly?

I ask you again when a teen disappears with an adult what should happen? Call the police and look for them or just assume they left together willingly? When someone said to be that the logical thing for a sibling or a parent is to let it be and not call the police or search for them because they might went together willingly then I will call it bs.

If you don't agree with my sig you are free to go to each thread and say that. I however cannot just not say that something is illogical and ridiculous.

I am a mother and I can honestly say that if my teenage daughter took off with a young handsome prince I would try to find her and find out what is going on before I went to the police. Now if I can not find her that would be a step I would take. Do you believe when a teenager runs away the parents don't look for the child with their friends and hang outs before they call the police?

[Snows Queen]

We do know that for a year no one knew where she and Rhaegar were. How is that obvious that she went willingly? How since there was nothing to say that she went willingly Brandon should know that she went willingly?

I ask you again when a teen disappears with an adult what should happen? Call the police and look for them or just assume they left together willingly? When someone said to be that the logical thing for a sibling or a parent is to let it be and not call the police or search for them because they might went together willingly then I will call it bs.

If you don't agree with my sig you are free to go to each thread and say that. I however cannot just not say that something is illogical and ridiculous.

I am a mother and I can honestly say that if my teenage daughter took off with a young handsome prince I would try to find her and find out what is going on before I went to the police. Now if I can not find her that would be a step I would take. Do you believe when a teenager runs away the parents don't look for the child with their friends and hang outs before they call the police?

[Snows Queen]

How do I delete all those posts? It kept saying it wasn't posting them then it did! Sorry, guys

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I am a mother and I can honestly say that if my teenage daughter took off with a young handsome prince I would try to find her and find out what is going on before I went to the police. Now if I can not find her that would be a step I would take. Do you believe when a teenager runs away the parents don't look for the child with their friends and hang outs before they call the police?

I don't agree. I am not a mother but if my teen daughter disappeared with someone almost 10 years older than she is I would had gone to the polise without a second thought. Then once they would be found I would asked if she went willingly. Better be safe than sorry.

[RedShirt47]

Robert's rebellion was not triggered by abduction of Lyanna, but by Aerys II request that Jon Arryn should surrender him Ned's and Robert's heads. As for the rest,

This.

Rhaegar (nor Lyanna) didn't know that their little tryst would start a war and tear the kingdom apart and end a dynasty.

Why should a simple love affair cause all that?

I'm sure Rhaegar thought there'd be consequence but he would have thought the situation could have been resolved peacefully. Aerys burning Brandon and Rickard and demanding the heads of Ned and Robert put pay to any hopes of peacefully resolving the situation.

[Snows Queen]

I don't agree. I am not a mother but if my teen daughter disappeared with someone almost 10 years older than she is I would had gone to the polise without a second thought. Then once they would be found I would asked if she went willingly. Better be safe than sorry.

The key statement here is you are not a mother. I have teenage sons and daughters and I know what I would do and what I have seen many other parents do in that situation. Stating the 10 year age difference is something you are seeing as a problem as it would be in this world but in Westeros they would be considered a reasonable match. Even marrying Lyanna would be a reasonable expectation in that world. If Aerys would have commanded Rhaegar and Lyanna to marry Robert could not have a real reason to complain. (Not to say he wouldn't anyway) We know Aerys wouldn't have been wanted to do this as he saw Rhaegar as a threat. Maybe the Prince thought he could hide her and their marriage until he could depose his father and take over the Throne and declare it all then.

[Marcel]

We do know that for a year no one knew where she and Rhaegar were. How is that obvious that she went willingly? How since there was nothing to say that she went willingly Brandon should know that she went willingly?

I ask you again when a teen disappears with an adult what should happen? Call the police and look for them or just assume they left together willingly? When someone said to be that the logical thing for a sibling or a parent is to let it be and not call the police or search for them because they might went together willingly then I will call it bs.

If you don't agree with my sig you are free to go to each thread and say that. I however cannot just not say that something is illogical and ridiculous.

Modesty Lannister said that Robert's Rebellion was triggered by Aerys's act demanding the heads of Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark. You said that was a ridiculous notion because Brandon went to King's Landing motivated by Rhaegar's abudction of Lyanna, implying that both Brandon and Aerys somehow have their acts justified by Rhaegar's action. I replied stating that it was possible that Brandon was operating with incorrect information in that matter in the same way as Catelyn was when she kidnapped Tyrion. I disagree that Rhaegar should be blamed for Brandon's stupidity. Brandon should have thought more before acting, as well as Catelyn should. Then, You argued again that Brandon acted motivated by correct information, because apparently if someone told Brandon that Rhaegar was seen with Lyanna (even if apparently she has followed him against her will), it is perfectly natural to assume that the prince was acting with nefarious purposes, and it is perfectly reasonable to follow to the court and threaten the life of such prince, and that this whole scenario obviously is the fault of Rhaegar, including Brandon's impulsiveness. Even thinking that such point of view was absurd, I kept insisting that Brandon was operating with incorrect information and that it was this that probably motivated his impulsive act. That Brandon acted irresponsibly could not be blamed on Rhaegar. The fact is that Brandon did not wait to find out what had really happened. He did not wait one year. Nothing that happened in Robert's Rebellion is relevant to this specific issue nor justify Brandon's irresponsibility. Finally, I disagree that we should apply our modern mind set to this situation.

[Rippounet]

What we know is that Rhaegar, without letting her family know, kidnapped a 14/15 year old girl without her fathers permission or some king of chaperone.

We know that Rhaegar took her away somewhere secluded and had three knights guarding her/making sure she could not escape.

No, we don't actually "know" this. That is the prevailing story in ASOAIF, there is a difference.

I made this thread to discuss the idea that Rhaegar had nothing to do with Lyanna's abduction. Feel free to disagree, but please refrain from totally ignoring this idea on this thread. You are free to create a thread called "Rhaegar abducted Lyanna" or something similar if you want to defend this position.

No contact from either Lyanna or Rhaegar to her family explaining the situation.

Her brother got arrested and her father summoned from Winterfell to Kings Landing, again with no contact from Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Lyanna sends no message of support to her surviving brothers after her father and brother are killed.

This is all highly suspicions behaviour. If you replace Rhaegar with someone looking like Walder Frey or Boros Blount there would be far fewer defenders of Rhaegars actions.

I don't think anybody is defending such "actions", because the thread was made to discuss Rhaegar not doing them in the first place...

[Rippounet]

Rhaegar (nor Lyanna) didn't know that their little tryst would start a war and tear the kingdom apart and end a dynasty.

Why should a simple love affair cause all that?

Sorry but this is ridiculous. Even at the best of times, abducting a daughter of a Lord Paramount beotrothed to another Lord Paramount would mean hell to pay. And here there was a Mad King in the picture...

Please take the time to read and consider the op. If you totally disagree with the premise, then, please refrain from posting here and create your own thread, thank you.

[Marcel]

Look, I usually have no problems in discussing speculation, but I think it would be more productive if you present a more detailed picture so that we can discuss it. I am not one who labels assumptions that differ from my personal vision as "fanfiction", then certainly from me you will not see such behavior.

But the key issue, in my opinion, regarding your proposal is as follows: in which way Lyanna could have been abducted so that the responsibility for such an act was attributed to Rhaegar, but at the same time holding him from coming forward and proclaiming his innocence? Without a plausible scenario for this particular issue and without plausible motivation, I do not see much to discuss.

[nara]

This is all highly suspicions behaviour. If you replace Rhaegar with someone looking like Walder Frey or Boros Blount there would be far fewer defenders of Rhaegars actions.

LOL. If it were Walder Frey or Boros Blount, Lyanna would not have run away with him! Also, I bet she could take Walder in a fight.

That is my pet crackpot.

Aerys the daddy of :

Dany, Jon and Tyrion.

All three through rape. Three heads of the dragon.

Or not.

I kinda like it, but it's sad...

[jlk7e]

Everything we know about Oswell Whent: he was at the Tower of Joy. He had "black humor". He is the brother of "Old Lord Whent," who planned his tourney shortly after his brother visited him. World of Ice and Fire suggests that Rhaegar used him as a go-between to organize the tourney. That's all I can find.

[Rippounet]

But the key issue, in my opinion, regarding your proposal is as follows: in which way Lyanna could have been abducted so that the responsibility for such an act was attributed to Rhaegar, but at the same time holding him from coming forward and proclaiming his innocence? Without a plausible scenario for this particular issue and without plausible motivation, I do not see much to discuss.

I addressed this on page 1. Quick recap:

- Rhaegar claiming his innocence was pretty much pointless if he didn't know where she was and/or if he couldn't prove he was not at fault. Only a rescued Lyanna could have truly confirmed Rhaegar's innocence.

- Even if he knew where she was, claiming his innocence and revealing her location could have put her in mortal danger if her true abductor was willing to kill her.

- Even if he claimed his innocence, Brandon had still been arrested and -depending on how soon he could get the word out- Rickard executed. Ned and Robert were fugitives for a time afterward. Only when Ned got back to Winterfell and Robert to Storm's End could they have been contacted. Maybe a raven to Jon Arryn would have worked, but that was hardly certain. In other words: who could Rhaegar claim his innocence to exactly?

- While Lyanna might have managed to convince Ned and Robert to stop the war, Aerys was crazy and would probably have ordered an attack on the "rebels" anyway. So Rhaegar didn't just have to claim his innocence, he would have to try to depose his father as well, which was extremely difficult (Robert's Rebellion had no guarantee of success, and it's clear Aerys still enjoyed a lot of support).

In short: the events moved very quickly after Lyanna's abduction. Rhaegar would have had to find Lyanna and take her back to either Ned or Robert in order to convincingly show his innocence.

Not easy in times of war.

And assuming he managed that... Then what? Would Ned and Robert help him win the crown? Would he be able to join his family on Dragonstone?

Now, if Aerys was indeed guilty it's even worse:

- If he claimed his innocence without being able to accuse Aerys in a credible way (producing Lyanna), it made Brandon's arrest legitimate, maybe even Rickard's execution. The Starks would still be accused of betraying the Crown because of Brandon. The Targ loyalists would split between Rhaegar supporters and Aerys supporters, with no guarantee of success for the former.

- If Aerys was the culprit, Rhaegar, as Crown Prince, would still share part of the responsibility. The Starks might still see him as responsible because of the garland incident.

- If Aerys was the culprit, Rhaegar accusing him could be seen as treason. If he was anywhere in loyalist lands it would mean putting himself in grave danger. He had to get somewhere safe before "claiming his innocence."

- Rhaegar's family might have been used to pressure him into silence (even in Dragonstone, they could have been vulnerable to an assassin).

- Rhaegar himself could have been under surveillance, or even worse, under house arrest somewhere.

- While Rhaegar was most likely innocent in the first place, it's still entirely possible Lyanna and him fell in love after he rescued her -if he did.

To sum up: there are tons of reasons why "coming forward and claiming his innocence" was actually incredibly tricky.

Also, what evidence was there of his guilt anyway? On what grounds were the Starks accusing Rhaegar? If the accusation was false, how could he convincingly refute it, without Lyanna herself?

Because we don't know what led Brandon to be so certain of Rhaegar's involvement, it's hard to be sure how he could deny it.

Those are my two cents on that problem.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Modesty Lannister said that Robert's Rebellion was triggered by Aerys's act demanding the heads of Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark. You said that was a ridiculous notion because Brandon went to King's Landing motivated by Rhaegar's abudction of Lyanna, implying that both Brandon and Aerys somehow have their acts justified by Rhaegar's action. I replied stating that it was possible that Brandon was operating with incorrect information in that matter in the same way as Catelyn was when she kidnapped Tyrion. I disagree that Rhaegar should be blamed for Brandon's stupidity. Brandon should have thought more before acting, as well as Catelyn should. Then, You argued again that Brandon acted motivated by correct information, because apparently if someone told Brandon that Rhaegar was seen with Lyanna (even if apparently she has followed him against her will), it is perfectly natural to assume that the prince was acting with nefarious purposes, and it is perfectly reasonable to follow to the court and threaten the life of such prince, and that this whole scenario obviously is the fault of Rhaegar, including Brandon's impulsiveness. Even thinking that such point of view was absurd, I kept insisting that Brandon was operating with incorrect information and that it was this that probably motivated his impulsive act. That Brandon acted irresponsibly could not be blamed on Rhaegar. The fact is that Brandon did not wait to find out what had really happened. He did not wait one year. Nothing that happened in Robert's Rebellion is relevant to this specific issue nor justify Brandon's irresponsibility. Finally, I disagree that we should apply our modern mind set to this situation.

The chain of reaction was; Rhaegar disappears with Lyanna->Brandon goes to KL->Brandon gets arrested->Rickard goes to KL->Brandon and Rickard die->Aerys wants Robert's and Ned's heads->JA calls the banners.

How on GRRTH theRebellion would had started without Lyanna and Rhaegar?

What do you propose? Brandon waiting for a year or more before asking for his sister even if that this time Lyanna could be raped or tortured? How this makes sense?

The key statement here is you are not a mother. I have teenage sons and daughters and I know what I would do and what I have seen many other parents do in that situation. Stating the 10 year age difference is something you are seeing as a problem as it would be in this world but in Westeros they would be considered a reasonable match. Even marrying Lyanna would be a reasonable expectation in that world. If Aerys would have commanded Rhaegar and Lyanna to marry Robert could not have a real reason to complain. (Not to say he wouldn't anyway) We know Aerys wouldn't have been wanted to do this as he saw Rhaegar as a threat. Maybe the Prince thought he could hide her and their marriage until he could depose his father and take over the Throne and declare it all then.

Yet I happen to have a mother and she said that she would go to the police no matter what. She was a minor he was an adult. Of course someone would call the police!

[Marcel]

I addressed this on page 1. Quick recap:

- Rhaegar claiming his innocence was pretty much pointless if he didn't know where she was and/or if he couldn't prove he was not at fault. Only a rescued Lyanna could have truly confirmed Rhaegar's innocence.

- Even if he knew where she was, claiming his innocence and revealing her location could have put her in mortal danger if her true abductor was willing to kill her.

- Even if he claimed his innocence, Brandon had still been arrested and -depending on how soon he could get the word out- Rickard executed. Ned and Robert were fugitives for a time afterward. Only when Ned got back to Winterfell and Robert to Storm's End could they have been contacted. Maybe a raven to Jon Arryn would have worked, but that was hardly certain. In other words: who could Rhaegar claim his innocence to exactly?

- While Lyanna might have managed to convince Ned and Robert to stop the war, Aerys was crazy and would probably have ordered an attack on the "rebels" anyway. So Rhaegar didn't just have to claim his innocence, he would have to try to depose his father as well, which was extremely difficult (Robert's Rebellion had no guarantee of success, and it's clear Aerys still enjoyed a lot of support).

In short: the events moved very quickly after Lyanna's abduction. Rhaegar would have had to find Lyanna and take her back to either Ned or Robert in order to convincingly show his innocence.

Not easy in times of war.

And assuming he managed that... Then what? Would Ned and Robert help him win the crown? Would he be able to join his family on Dragonstone?

Now, if Aerys was indeed guilty it's even worse:

- If he claimed his innocence without being able to accuse Aerys in a credible way (producing Lyanna), it made Brandon's arrest legitimate, maybe even Rickard's execution. The Starks would still be accused of betraying the Crown because of Brandon. The Targ loyalists would split between Rhaegar supporters and Aerys supporters, with no guarantee of success for the former.

- If Aerys was the culprit, Rhaegar, as Crown Prince, would still share part of the responsibility. The Starks might still see him as responsible because of the garland incident.

- If Aerys was the culprit, Rhaegar accusing him could be seen as treason. If he was anywhere in loyalist lands it would mean putting himself in grave danger. He had to get somewhere safe before "claiming his innocence."

- Rhaegar's family might have been used to pressure him into silence (even in Dragonstone, they could have been vulnerable to an assassin).

- Rhaegar himself could have been under surveillance, or even worse, under house arrest somewhere.

- While Rhaegar was most likely innocent in the first place, it's still entirely possible Lyanna and him fell in love after he rescued her -if he did.

To sum up: there are tons of reasons why "coming forward and claiming his innocence" was actually incredibly tricky.

Also, what evidence was there of his guilt anyway? On what grounds were the Starks accusing Rhaegar? If the accusation was false, how could he convincingly refute it, without Lyanna herself?

Because we don't know what led Brandon to be so certain of Rhaegar's involvement, it's hard to be sure how he could deny it.

Those are my two cents on that problem.

We are assuming that Rhaegar is innocent of Lyanna's abduction, correct? Brandon went to King's Landing because it was assumed that Rhaegar had vanished with Lyanna. There, Brandon threatens Rhaegar's life and is arrested by Aerys. If Rhaegar is innocent, he just show up and say, "I have nothing to do with it. I was with my wife at Dragonstone, or I was dreaming at Summerhall". He did not need to prove his innocence, Brandon Stark is the one who should prove his claim. Indeed, if Rhaegar says that he is innocent, he legitimizes Aerys's decision to execute Brandon for treason. If Rhaegar remains silent, the only reason would be to strengthen the cause of the rebels, which would indicate that he is a traitor. But we know he is not allied with the rebels because he turns out to face them in the end, unless you think he decided to betray the rebels later, which would make Rhaegar not a prince, but a member of the Second Sons.

There is no reason for Aerys to punish Rhaegar if he shows up and says that he is innocent. It would just indicate the treacherous purpose of Brandon's accusation. And Rhaegar's silence also does not prevent any war, so I don't think this could be a reason.

If Aerys is guilty, what is the responsibility of Rhaegar? The fact that Rhaegar gave the crown of blue winter roses to Lyanna doesn't make him responsible for Aerys kidnap of Lyanna. If he knows that Aerys is guilty, he doesn't need to accuse his father, but nothing prevents him from declaring his own innocence.

[Marcel]

The chain of reaction was; Rhaegar disappears with Lyanna->Brandon goes to KL->Brandon gets arrested->Rickard goes to KL->Brandon and Rickard die->Aerys wants Robert's and Ned's heads->JA calls the banners.

How on GRRTH theRebellion would had started without Lyanna and Rhaegar?

What do you propose? Brandon waiting for a year or more before asking for his sister even if that this time Lyanna could be raped or tortured? How this makes sense?

Yet I happen to have a mother and she said that she would go to the police no matter what. She was a minor he was an adult. Of course someone would call the police!

The rebellion would not have started if Brandon had not acted in an irresponsible and impulsive way and gone to King's Landing threaten the king's son and if Aerys had not mocked the tradition of trial by combat. Aerys offended the laws of gods and men and showed that no lord could expect justice from him. It was a brutal breach of trust and a violation of a sacred oath that united vassals and their lords.

Your analogy about going to the police is absurd, because in that case a better analogy would be to say that, knowing that your daughter disappeared with the son of the sheriff, you go to the police station shouting and threatening the sheriff's son's life. It would not be an irrational attitude?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The rebellion would not have started if Brandon had not acted in an irresponsible and impulsive way and gone to King's Landing threaten the king's son and if Aerys had not mocked the tradition of trial by combat. Aerys offended the laws of gods and men and showed that no lord could expect justice from him. It was a brutal breach of trust and a violation of a sacred oath that united vassals and their lords.

Again why Brandon went there? Because of what Rhaegar did! If Rhaegar hadn't done it Brandon wouldn't had a reason to go there!

Your analogy about going to the police is absurd, because in that case a better analogy would be to say that, knowing that your daughter disappeared with the son of the sheriff, you go to the police station shouting and threatening the sheriff's son's life. It would not be an irrational attitude?

Yes. I would had gone there and asked for her no matter what. What I wouldn't had done is to wait for the criminal to appear and answer for his crimes. There is absolutely no logic at just waiting for the criminal to come clean.