Golden Company's numbers-why so many?

[TheNorthRemember]

It is amusing to think that Stannis asked his envoy to meet minimum Braves 20,000 mercenary army !!!. To collect that amount would hire q while the Golden Company and all those who are fighting and deserve still they are missing.XD

[Bright Blue Eyes]

It is amusing to think that Stannis asked his envoy to meet minimum Braves 20,000 mercenary army !!!. To collect that amount would hire q while the Golden Company and all those who are fighting and deserve still they are missing.XD

Not at all.

They and many more are available.

[Gibzit]

The Golden Company probably has around 2500 exiles in it (maybe alot less) which are higher ranked usually and the rest are recruits from essos.

[Aryss]

The Golden Company has too many troops. They are far too powerful as a mercenary company over other armies in Essos. Not only are they numerically superior, from what we are told they are administratively and materially superior too. Essos functions much like Renaissance Italy (they also had mercenary companies named after colours, Red Company, White Company, the most famous led by John Hawkswood), the citizens don't actually seem to do any fighting. Wars are conducted through mercenaries or slave soldiers. This would cause one of two things to happen.

a) the Golden Company is so overwhelmingly powerful they could have just taken over a city state and run it themselves, making the citizens pay them taxes

b) or even if they didn't do that, whichever city hires them would win.

The only army in essos that could match them would be a very large Unsullied army. Unfortunately GRRMs writing on this is also sloppy. There doesn't actually appear to be anywhere in Essos with large numbers of Unsullied apart from with Dany. All the numbers are confined to small amounts, and if city states own say 5-10k unsullied why would they need 500 mercenaries, and also why would they bother to pay tribute to the dothraki who don't like to attack unsullied or fortifications. So where do all the unsullied go which the masters of Astapor create? The slavery would be run on basic economics, they would not spend money producing slave soldiers if no one buys them, that would become prohibitively expensive ... so who is buying them? where do they go? if you try and argue they are producing them for their own protection that is also incorrect, they clearly are producing them on a commercial basis and just use those not sold for protection.

Unfortunately GRRMs writing on this does not stand up to scrutiny, so best look with blurred vision and just enjoy the fantasy as you won't be able to join the dots. Ultimately GRRM needed for his story a super charged army for which someone could invade with regardless of realism. Dany got the unsullied and Aegon the Golden Company

[Rippounet]

a) the Golden Company is so overwhelmingly powerful they could have just taken over a city state and run it themselves, making the citizens pay them taxes

a) The GC's ultimate goal was (and possibly is) to put a Blackfyre on the throne, not to conquer anything.

b ) Does the GC have siege engines? Fighting for gold and taking a city are very different missions. The fact that the GC is so well suited to one makes them ill-suited to the other.

c) Mercenaries dislike responsibilities, and Dany has taught us that "taking a city" is just the beginning.

or even if they didn't do that, whichever city hires them would win.

What makes you think this is not the case? Only the GC is expensive, and the cities take turns in hiring them. Also, some cities don't actually try to destroy the others, merely to reclaim land or resources they lost or disrupt their trade. In other words, the free cities don't seek to "win" as in conquer or destroy, but to "win" as in neutralize and subdue.

The only army in essos that could match them would be a very large Unsullied army. Unfortunately GRRMs writing on this is also sloppy. There doesn't actually appear to be anywhere in Essos with large numbers of Unsullied apart from with Dany. All the numbers are confined to small amounts, and if city states own say 5-10k unsullied why would they need 500 mercenaries, and also why would they bother to pay tribute to the dothraki who don't like to attack unsullied or fortifications. So where do all the unsullied go which the masters of Astapor create? The slavery would be run on basic economics, they would not spend money producing slave soldiers if no one buys them, that would become prohibitively expensive ... so who is buying them? where do they go? if you try and argue they are producing them for their own protection that is also incorrect, they clearly are producing them on a commercial basis and just use those not sold for protection.

a) Unsullied are very expensive.

b ) Creating Unsullied is a long process, and only a few slaves actually reach the final Unsullied status.

c) There are many buyers, and few can afford a whole army. Most go for a few hundred, which is a good basis for a defensive army.

d) Mercenaries can do things that Unsullied can't do. For starters, mercenaries are often cavalry. While having a good infantry base is nice, the mounted mercenaries are necessary to field a proper army.

e) The Dothraki may not like Unsullied or fortifications, but they love challenges. If you read their history in the World book, you'll see they always come back once they have identified a foe, and have ruined plenty of powerful cities. Paying them is smarter and safer. Also, the Dothraki probably don't cost that much to "bribe" while the Unsullied are very expensive.

All in all the Essos dynamics make sense, at least as far as the cities are concerned.

If I were to criticize Martin for anything, it would be for making the Dothraki such a potent threat in the first place, but that's really off-topic and highly debatable.

[RoamingRonin]

I hate to just chalk it up to "plot" but that's pretty much why they have such high numbers. Aegon needs a sizeable army to make an impact in Westoros and play his part in the upcoming Dance. The Golden Company are Aegon's version of the Unsullied.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The Golden Company has too many troops. They are far too powerful as a mercenary company over other armies in Essos. Not only are they numerically superior, from what we are told they are administratively and materially superior too. Essos functions much like Renaissance Italy (they also had mercenary companies named after colours, Red Company, White Company, the most famous led by John Hawkswood), the citizens don't actually seem to do any fighting. Wars are conducted through mercenaries or slave soldiers. This would cause one of two things to happen.

a) the Golden Company is so overwhelmingly powerful they could have just taken over a city state and run it themselves, making the citizens pay them taxes

That was called the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Worked until Westeros involved itself.

B) or even if they didn't do that, whichever city hires them would win.

Unless the other city hires five companies. Or twenty.

The only army in essos that could match them would be a very large Unsullied army. Unfortunately GRRMs writing on this is also sloppy. There doesn't actually appear to be anywhere in Essos with large numbers of Unsullied apart from with Dany. All the numbers are confined to small amounts, and if city states own say 5-10k unsullied why would they need 500 mercenaries, and also why would they bother to pay tribute to the dothraki who don't like to attack unsullied or fortifications. So where do all the unsullied go which the masters of Astapor create? The slavery would be run on basic economics, they would not spend money producing slave soldiers if no one buys them, that would become prohibitively expensive ... so who is buying them? where do they go? if you try and argue they are producing them for their own protection that is also incorrect, they clearly are producing them on a commercial basis and just use those not sold for protection.

There are about 1,000 Unsullied sold per year, give or take. And they serve mostly as personal guard.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

I think the presence of Blackfyre exiles in the Golden Company is probably overstated, there are probably a few dozen (formerly) noble families or branches of noble families that fled Westeros with Bittersteel 104 years ago, maybe comprising of 2 or 3 hundred individuals who are mostly knights and hold important roles within the company.

The rest of the company comprises of the descendants of common men-at-arms who accompanied said exiles 104 years ago, soldiers who left westeros for more/better work, more recent exiles and Essosi soldiers.

[Aryss]

GC does have siege weapons or the ability to make them, i pretty sure it is discussed in the books. Besides they could do it through subterfuge. The company may wish to go back to Westeros to reclaim it, but they would have a damn easier time if they had a power base to start from.

Actually there is no reason why your statement "mercenaries dislike responsibility" is true. You just said it likes its true when you have no proof. Actually the historical mercenary companies on which these are clearly based in many cases DID take on responsibility.

If the GC won all the time, there would not be any mercenary company to face them as there would barely be a point unless they only fight small skirmishes with each other and when the GC turn up they give up. If that was the case eventually the GC would never any try battle experience. If the GC reputation is accurate they must be in fights and win them.

I am sorry if you are arguing that the major cities in Essos (Volantis, Lys) couldn't afford to buy 5000 unsullied every ten years you are talking nonsense. If a private citizen could afford a few hundred then, the city states could afford them in far greater numbers.

You say there are things that mercenaries can do unsullied can't that is true. We know that Astapor defends itself by using unsullied and that it has 8000. So a defensive army of 10000 unsullied. Why would Pentos pay them anything. If they need to attack sure they can add some mercenaries but in terms of defensive slave army why not just buy unsullied

There has been a suggestion that you could hire 20 mercenary companies to beat the GC. That is also unlikely. the more companies the more commanders seeking to command and do there on thing. No unified command structure. Far more likely to be broken in combat or switch sides. Possible but human history has numerous example of disunited very large forces being overcome by much smaller ones who are strongly organised.

There are 1000 unsullied sold every year? Did you just make that up? If there was greater demand the supply would likely increase. although human flesh isn't infinite and the process of training brutal, the current unsullied production clearly does not hinder the trade in other male slaves. If unsullied were in greater demand a increase in price and increased production would likely change.

The dynamics are not realistic but it would be completely onerous for GRRM to try and put realistic dynamics into his novels. It would take so much time to explain them all and at the end of the day, he needs Dany to get an army, he needs Aegon to get an army. The Unsullied, Dothraki and GC both sound cool on the page too, so realism goes out the window. I actually don't care they aren't realistic, they are good plot movers, but if you are arguing that there is some rational reason to explain it all your wrong. Now we probably won't agree here, so we will have to agree to disagree.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Your post is somewhat hard to understand, seems like you are adressing three or four different people with as many opinions.

You say there are things that mercenaries can do unsullied can't that is true. We know that Astapor defends itself by using unsullied and that it has 8000. So a defensive army of 10000 unsullied. Why would Pentos pay them anything. If they need to attack sure they can add some mercenaries but in terms of defensive slave army why not just buy unsullied

,.. and Astapor hasn't been attacked for 5,000 years or thereabouts.

There has been a suggestion that you could hire 20 mercenary companies to beat the GC. That is also unlikely. the more companies the more commanders seeking to command and do there on thing. No unified command structure. Far more likely to be broken in combat or switch sides. Possible but human history has numerous example of disunited very large forces being overcome by much smaller ones who are strongly organised.

Yes, that is a problem, but it can be overcome. Hiring somebody as commander-in-chief and let him handle subcontracts would be one option.

There are 1000 unsullied sold every year? Did you just make that up? If there was greater demand the supply would likely increase. although human flesh isn't infinite and the process of training brutal, the current unsullied production clearly does not hinder the trade in other male slaves. If unsullied were in greater demand a increase in price and increased production would likely change.

We know that the ~8,000 Unsullied Dany got (the "trading stock") are from about ten years of "production". So, to keep a stable supply, every year about 1,000 have to roll of the line while as many are sold.

The dynamics are not realistic but it would be completely onerous for GRRM to try and put realistic dynamics into his novels. It would take so much time to explain them all and at the end of the day, he needs Dany to get an army, he needs Aegon to get an army. The Unsullied, Dothraki and GC both sound cool on the page too, so realism goes out the window. I actually don't care they aren't realistic, they are good plot movers, but if you are arguing that there is some rational reason to explain it all your wrong. Now we probably won't agree here, so we will have to agree to disagree.

Dothraki and Unsullied are utterly worthless in the big picture, and GRRM has telegraphed that all along.

[Rippounet]

Actually there is no reason why your statement "mercenaries dislike responsibility" is true. You just said it likes its true when you have no proof. Actually the historical mercenary companies on which these are clearly based in many cases DID take on responsibility.

You only answered the first part of my sentence. In the books, if you take a city and keep it, it means you must be ready to deal with all this entails. From the World Book I gather that victors prefer razing cities.

I am sorry if you are arguing that the major cities in Essos (Volantis, Lys) couldn't afford to buy 5000 unsullied every ten years you are talking nonsense. If a private citizen could afford a few hundred then, the city states could afford them in far greater numbers.

I never said they couldn't, but that they don't want to. The Free Cities are focused on trade and don't want to militarize.

Anyway, my point was that GRRM's writing stand up to scrutiny just fine. You need to be a history major/buff to really find serious problems.