Anybody know if the show will have a split like the books? (book spoilers)

[Lamb of the Gods]

Has it occurred to anybody else that a lot appears to be missing from the show? Well I know it has, because I've seen people talking about it, but I don't know if anybody has wondered about a split yet. First was how Bran wasn't even in the last season. Then there was no army of northmen gathering to bring down the Boltons. The Dornish sending somebody to see Dany did not happen, nor the Griff storyline. And absolutely no Asha or Ironborn plot, no Victarion, no raiding Highgarden. Basically we've seen a lot of A Dance with Dragons and very little of A Feast for Crows. So in the same way this season dropped a lot of these characters, do you think the next season will focus on these other plots, whilst giving the characters from last season a bit of room to stew? It won't be a clean split like in the books, but I'm thinking this will happen, mainly because of the Ironborn plot. I doubt they will want to drop Asha completely, I mean, so where is she?

What do you think?

[Sword Swallower]

I was wondering the same thing. There is so much material that they could do this and the show could go on for years. However, I can't imagine hanging onto all the current cliffhangers for another year.

[Ser Patroclo]

Improbable, they are still committed in making 7 seasons.

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

Well, I guess season 5 was mainly the aftermath of Tyrions trial and escape (and thus the death of Tywin). We have witnessed the throne losing power and the church gaining power in Kingslanding. Of course, that will continue and Cercei will probably be trialed for her non-confessed sins.

As for Dorne, I do not think they will send anybody to Dany, since Quentin was just plain old dragonfodder and a means to release the dragons. There are plenty of other ways to do that (or have them escape) so it makes sence that they skipped that.

The focus for S5 was clearly not on the Riverlands and Bran.

The Griffs (of they will appear at all), Ironborn and Highgarden storylines can all be combined with the riverlands story, where I think/hope S6 will focus on more. We will see the continuing plots develop in Dorne, KL, Mereen and the Wall, but the riverlands and the great northern conspiracy will have to be added now as well.

For the Lannisters, peace in the Riverlands is vital, for the North, it is vital to destroy the Boltons.

Focus to me should be about these 2 storylines and the way they will probably do this will be:

I fear that Sansa will be the device used by/for the BWB (like a not-undead Lady Stoneheart), while Jaimy will be sent as an envoy to get the pockets of resistance to surrender.

In the North, I hope we can finally see the northern Lords assemble and revolt against the Boltons, probably being gathered by Pod and Brienne.

P&B will afterwards again try and find Sansa, head off to the riverlands and find her in a state of vengeance, and have them choose between the sword and the noose.

We will also see how far Bran has evolved his gifts and how he intends to use them.

Then of course there's the story at the Wall with Jon, Mel, Alliser, the wildlings and a lot of other things happening. Too much possibilities to discuss here......

Other than that, questions that remain are:

• What happens to Dany now that she is 'captured' by another Dothraki horde (5 minute scenes in the early episodes);
  
• What happens in Mereen with Tyrion, Varys, Jorah and everyone there (5 minute scene every episode);
  
• The downfall and descent into madness of Cercei (trial 1 episode, trial by combat the following eposide, perhaps a tower being burned if she is victorious);
  
• Who will have power in Kingslanding after Cercei's walk of atonement, where she is humiliated to a point that all respect for her is gone (in the same scenes as the previous questions);
  
• How will Doran react to Myrcella's death and what will he do;
  
• Are the ironborn finally re-introduced and what will they do (invade Westeros mainland or travel to Mereen);
  
• What happens to Trystane, how that Myrcella is dead?
  

[protar]

Some things like the Ironborn will be shifted forwards. But most things are just plain cut, as they've already done things that preclude their existence in the show. They can't redo Dorne with Arianne now for example. D+D probably didn't like AFFC very much so cut out most of it. I know some material was in S4 but it's really startling how little of it appears in S5. Cersei's plot, Arya's, Dorne appears but the plot is completely different.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Some things like the Ironborn will be shifted forwards. But most things are just plain cut, as they've already done things that preclude their existence in the show. They can't redo Dorne with Arianne now for example. D+D probably didn't like AFFC very much so cut out most of it. I know some material was in S4 but it's really startling how little of it appears in S5. Cersei's plot, Arya's, Dorne appears but the plot is completely different.

When did they say they didn't like it very much? Is it maybe more likely that they had to create a 10 episode season with limited time, and simply had to narrow everything down to its essence?

[protar]

When did they say they didn't like it very much? Is it maybe more likely that they had to create a 10 episode season with limited time, and simply had to narrow everything down to its essence?

I'm sorry but no. This was maybe the slowest season so far, and they've always had problems with filler. I mean you're quite right - everything was narrowed down to the bare bones (I won't say to it's essence, because that would imply that there is still some essence of the book's themes and character development present in the show). But if everything is stripped to the bones, what are they making room for? It's not like Dorne was pared down so that Winterfell could be rich and developed. That would still sadden me but at least I'd get the impression that they were making hard cuts. But here everything is completely decimated. There's no depth in any of the stories. They had the time but they wasted it.

And additionally they wasted a lot of time in S4. They could have gotten through quite a bit of Feast/Dance material in S4 but they didn't. They insisted on having a whole season of Arya broing about with the Hound instead of sending her to Braavos. They insisted morphing all the smaller battles at the Wall into one big battle in episode 9, meaning they needed to rush through Jon's election and early DWD material very quickly. They barely dipped into Dany ruling Meereen, they gave Brienne no resolution meaning time had to be spent on her in S5, they invented Stannis going to Braavos.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I'm sorry but no. This was maybe the slowest season so far, and they've always had problems with filler. I mean you're quite right - everything was narrowed down to the bare bones (I won't say to it's essence, because that would imply that there is still some essence of the book's themes and character development present in the show). But if everything is stripped to the bones, what are they making room for? It's not like Dorne was pared down so that Winterfell could be rich and developed. That would still sadden me but at least I'd get the impression that they were making hard cuts. But here everything is completely decimated. There's no depth in any of the stories. They had the time but they wasted it.

And additionally they wasted a lot of time in S4. They could have gotten through quite a bit of Feast/Dance material in S4 but they didn't. They insisted on having a whole season of Arya broing about with the Hound instead of sending her to Braavos. They insisted morphing all the smaller battles at the Wall into one big battle in episode 9, meaning they needed to rush through Jon's election and early DWD material very quickly. They barely dipped into Dany ruling Meereen, they gave Brienne no resolution meaning time had to be spent on her in S5, they invented Stannis going to Braavos.

The way I see it is, they have a big chess board of pieces (characters and storylines) they have to move about during the season and get certain things accomplished by the end of that season.

There are a lot of disparate storylines going on, and so many had to be melded together and connected. The winterfell storyline was in my opinion an attempt to bring together the relevance of the sansa / bolton / stannis / castle black storylines so that viewers (and mostly I mean non book readers) don't just sit and go 'oh who cares about this! how is any of this important?!'

Without doing that I think many people would feel the story was going nowhere and scenes were simply wasting time. Many non book readers complain about the Arya scenes as being boring, because they don't quite seem to have any effect on the overall story. So imagine what they would say if they had to watch Sansa sitting around in the vale, or Stannis fighting for Winterfell against a faceless enemy with very little at stake.

I'm not saying any of their changes were entirely successful, but I can completely understand why they made them.

Have to say, for season 4 , Arya and the Hound were absolute highlights for me. They had great chemistry. Plus their scenes introduced many of the themes that are missing this season, the effect of the war on ordinary people.

And Stannis going to Braavos was another build up to show how desperate he was becoming and how he was able to even attack the wildings at all. How do you make that happen without showing him being there?!

[protar]

The way I see it is, they have a big chess board of pieces (characters and storylines) they have to move about during the season and get certain things accomplished by the end of that season.

There are a lot of disparate storylines going on, and so many had to be melded together and connected. The winterfell storyline was in my opinion an attempt to bring together the relevance of the sansa / bolton / stannis / castle black storylines so that viewers (and mostly I mean non book readers) don't just sit and go 'oh who cares about this! how is any of this important?!'

Without doing that I think many people would feel the story was going nowhere and scenes were simply wasting time. Many non book readers complain about the Arya scenes as being boring, because they don't quite seem to have any effect on the overall story. So imagine what they would say if they had to watch Sansa sitting around in the vale, or Stannis fighting for Winterfell against a faceless enemy with very little at stake.

I'm not saying any of their changes were entirely successful, but I can completely understand why they made them.

Have to say, for season 4 , Arya and the Hound were absolute highlights for me. They had great chemistry. Plus their scenes introduced many of the themes that are missing this season, the effect of the war on ordinary people.

And Stannis going to Braavos was another build up to show how desperate he was becoming and how he was able to even attack the wildings at all. How do you make that happen without showing him being there?!

I can often see the line of reasoning behind the changes, but that doesn't mean they aren't stupid beyond all belief. That one can understand why the changes where made is not a defence of them, it's a glimpse into the minds of a pair of madmen.

Arya's story was boring because she spent most of the season cleaning dead bodies, rather than getting into training quickly, establishing her Warg powers, being taught the history of the Faceless Men. A small story of Sansa learning to play the game could have been interesting. Or hell, get rid of Sansa for a season like they did with Bran and in Season 6 return to her as a fully fledged schemer.

I don't see how anyone could claim that Theon ADWD story would not make for good TV. We have Theon's great redemption story, the mystery murders, Bran speaking through the Weirwoods, rumblings of mutiny from the northern lords. I really don't see how the Bolton's would be a faceless enemy if Sansa was not there, nor how without Sansa being there there is little at stake. I mean my god, it's like you completely missed the point of that whole story. That Jeyne is of little importance to the fate of Westeros, and yet Theon saves her anyway. Despite her unimportance.

I get it if you thought Arya and The Hound together where cool. They were. But this isn't a sketch show. It's the same problem with the Arya/Tywin scenes. It was just blatant favouritism of Arya and Maisie Williams, rather than fulfilling the plot. They stretched practically a single chapter over 10 episodes. That's appalling.

And Stannis in Braavos? He didn't need to go in the books, why would he need to go in the show? It was filler, which also ruined the surprise of were Stannis was headed.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I can often see the line of reasoning behind the changes, but that doesn't mean they aren't stupid beyond all belief. That one can understand why the changes where made is not a defence of them, it's a glimpse into the minds of a pair of madmen.

Arya's story was boring because she spent most of the season cleaning dead bodies, rather than getting into training quickly, establishing her Warg powers, being taught the history of the Faceless Men. A small story of Sansa learning to play the game could have been interesting. Or hell, get rid of Sansa for a season like they did with Bran and in Season 6 return to her as a fully fledged schemer.

I don't see how anyone could claim that Theon ADWD story would not make for good TV. We have Theon's great redemption story, the mystery murders, Bran speaking through the Weirwoods, rumblings of mutiny from the northern lords. I really don't see how the Bolton's would be a faceless enemy if Sansa was not there, nor how without Sansa being there there is little at stake. I mean my god, it's like you completely missed the point of that whole story. That Jeyne is of little importance to the fate of Westeros, and yet Theon saves her anyway. Despite her unimportance.

I get it if you thought Arya and The Hound together where cool. They were. But this isn't a sketch show. It's the same problem with the Arya/Tywin scenes. It was just blatant favouritism of Arya and Maisie Williams, rather than fulfilling the plot. They stretched practically a single chapter over 10 episodes. That's appalling.

And Stannis in Braavos? He didn't need to go in the books, why would he need to go in the show? It was filler, which also ruined the surprise of were Stannis was headed.

To be fair, we don't know what Sansas storyline is going to be in TWOW, it might be that she ends up at winterfell anyway.

While I think the execution was poor, the general idea of merging theon and sansas storyline is a solid one. There is conflict between the two characters , Theon murdered her family (which he reveals he didnt, something else that ups the drama), plus the fact that now Theon has to watch someone he grew up with getting raped heightens everything. Having it be fake arya instead would be nonsensical and just plain boring.

Imagine Sansa was left behind for an entire season.. how do you pick it up from there? Just 'oh look here is that girl you forgot about... shes been basically doing nothing while you were away'

I'd argue that it would be impossible to keep the momentum going within a limited timeframe for the Theon story doing all the things you mentioned, it would need a whole new episode on its own to do it justice. Plus none of it adds to the overall storyline, but its merely a side story. Adding Sansa connects plot threads.

As for Arya.. how do you do her getting to Braavos in season 4 and becoming a faceless man and leave it at a point where people are wanting to know what happens next? Again getting Brienne to meet her and the Hound was an excellent change that transformed two dull book storylines. Again it connected plot threads. I think you can see a trend and a semblence of thought behind these changes.

[protar]

To be fair, we don't know what Sansas storyline is going to be in TWOW, it might be that she ends up at winterfell anyway.

And that does not justify the terrible excuse for a storyline that we got. It wasn't just poorly written it was downright offensive. For a myriad of reasons which have been discussed in depth.

While I think the execution was poor, the general idea of merging theon and sansas storyline is a solid one. There is conflict between the two characters , Theon murdered her family (which he reveals he didnt, something else that ups the drama), plus the fact that now Theon has to watch someone he grew up with getting raped heightens everything. Having it be fake arya instead would be nonsensical and just plain boring.

No it wouldn't have been. Again, you are missing the entire point of the story. As did D+D. They felt what you do - that the audience needs something to buy into the story, that having it be Jeyne would be boring. The entire point of that story was that Jeyne was unimportant but Theon saved her anyway. There's certainly some good thematic resonance in Theon saving a Stark which could have been well written. But it's the obvious well to draw from. What happened to this series busting tropes?

And as for nonsensical. Littlefinger's plan in the show makes no sense. Why is Sansa even at Winterfell? Cersei just takes his word for it when he tells her, she apparently has no spies in the north. So why not just lie about Sansa in Winterfell and keep her safe in the Vale? It would achieve the exact same effect.

Imagine Sansa was left behind for an entire season.. how do you pick it up from there? Just 'oh look here is that girl you forgot about... shes been basically doing nothing while you were away'

This is exactly what they're doing with Bran. They ditched him for a season because he was away training and didn't even give him a weirwood scene. Why not do the same with Sansa? Or at least put her on the backburner and include her in no more than 3 or 4 episodes.

I'd argue that it would be impossible to keep the momentum going within a limited timeframe for the Theon story doing all the things you mentioned, it would need a whole new episode on its own to do it justice. Plus none of it adds to the overall storyline, but its merely a side story. Adding Sansa connects plot threads.

I don't understand. Winterfell is one of the biggest parts of ADWD. How can you say it's just a side story? It's the fate of the entire north.

As for Arya.. how do you do her getting to Braavos in season 4 and becoming a faceless man and leave it at a point where people are wanting to know what happens next?

Have Arya's first assassination mission in the season 4 finale or something. Not every story line needs a huge finale imo, but that would have been interesting enough.

Again getting Brienne to meet her and the Hound was an excellent change that transformed two dull book storylines. Again it connected plot threads. I think you can see a trend and a semblence of thought behind these changes.

Brienne vs. the Hound was just pure fan fiction. It served nothing but to have a cool non-canonical fight. It links up the plot threads sure. But to what end? They meet, they fight, they go on their way. No consequence. The Hound "dies" but he was already injured and in the books "dies" after the inn scene. So this is just deliberately invented filler. You know what would have added some excitement to Arya's story? Getting to Braavos earlier. You know what would have added some excitement to Brienne's story? Lady Stoneheart.

[Lord Eddard]

I don't think they will have the split like in the books because

a) it was ill-thought of Martin and very poorly received by fans in the books

b ) it's not really necessary, there has been enough filler in the books that can be easily cut (and already was, think of Aegon - I really hope he is out for good!)

c) time constraints! We only have two (maybe three) seasons left to tell the whole story, so it has to be focused on the main players.

I think D&D are doing a stellar job so far, especially considering the poor material from Feast and Dance. A minor quibble is Dorne, they should have shortened that arc even further. But hey, I'm really hyped for season 6! :D

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

It adds Drama and gives purpose to characters storylines. I'm not sure you really understand.

Please think about it properly. You get Arya to Braavos in the middle of season 4.. you don't think that is rushed? When does the Hound die? Where is the build up to that? Then by ep 10 of season 4 Arya is starting out being a faceless man.. but how is that a cliffhanger? Where is the drama?

How does Ladystoneheart add to Briennes storyline? Where does she even fit into the storyline?

[protar]

It adds Drama and gives purpose to characters storylines. I'm not sure you really understand.

Please think about it properly. You get Arya to Braavos in the middle of season 4.. you don't think that is rushed? When does the Hound die? Where is the build up to that? Then by ep 10 of season 4 Arya is starting out being a faceless man.. but how is that a cliffhanger? Where is the drama?

No I don't think it's rushed. Arya's story in S4 was very slow and meandering, why not speed it up a little bit and use that to free up space in S5? Not every story needs a cliffhanger, it just needs to end on an interesting note. Arya assassinating someone for the FM for the first time is that.

How does Ladystoneheart add to Briennes storyline? Where does she even fit into the storyline?

I have to ask at this point. Did...did you read the books? I'm really being serious because I don't know how you can ask this if you've read the books.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Of course I've read it. Stoneheart at this point in time has very little effect on the overall story, it not been established that she is going to really be relevant at all.

But really, go through it episode by episode how you would plot out the Hound and Aryas storyline, without it being rushed and get her to being a faceless man by the end of season 4. Please. Just map it out to me.

[Lord Eddard]

How does Ladystoneheart add to Briennes storyline? Where does she even fit into the storyline?

One of the best decision of D&D to leave out Zombie Cat. I really hope they won't introduce her next season. D&D in general toned down the dying-and-resurrecting meme, which is a good thing because it's corny and lessens the gritty realism of the depicted world. You can have nuances of magic but they have to be subtle and seldom. People - especially main characters - dying and rising left and right gets tiring and annoying quite fast.

So let Cat rest where she lies - in her grave.

[protar]

Of course I've read it. Stoneheart at this point in time has very little effect on the overall story, it not been established that she is going to really be relevant at all.

Uncat is at the very least a vital thematic part of the story. You're right we don't yet know how important she will be to the story, but that doesn't mean she won't be important.

But really, go through it episode by episode how you would plot out the Hound and Aryas storyline, without it being rushed and get her to being a faceless man by the end of season 4. Please. Just map it out to me.

Just a rough outline.

E1: Traveling with the Hound, seeing the ravages of war.

E2: Fight at the Inn.

E3: The Hound "dies", Arya leaves for Braavos.

E4: Absent

E5: Arrival at Braavos and the HoBaW.

E6: Beginning of her training. The lying game, sent to work at an Inn.

E7: Absent

E8: Absent

E9: Working at the Inn. Given her first assignment to kill the money lender. Observing the money lender.

E10: Completes her first assassination.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Sounds great.

Except each one of those episodes could devote maybe 5, ten minutes at most to that storyline. you seriously think that is enough time to build up momentum or develop characters or relationships or even explain what the hell is going on?

That is rushed. Simple as that.

[protar]

Sounds great.

Except each one of those episodes could devote maybe 5, ten minutes at most to that storyline. you seriously think that is enough time to build up momentum or develop characters or relationships or even explain what the hell is going on?

That is rushed. Simple as that.

No it isn't. What you're saying about each episode only having 5-10 minutes for each story line is true of every story. And yet in previous seasons at least it did not stop the show from giving each plot line a coherent story line. You can tell a lot of story in 5-10 minutes an episode. That easily provides an hour or more of story time for Arya.

There's no denying that Arya's arc in S4 was filler. It had not one, but two non canonical fight scenes as well as weird faulosophy like "nothing is nothing". Maybe you liked Maise and Rory's dynamic, that's fair enough. But that doesn't mean it was right to spend all that time on it.

Besides, it's laughable to imply that Season 5 spent any time building up momentum, character development, or explaining what the hell is going on.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

The time spent building up Aryas time spent in the House and Black and White in the show is one of the plus points for me. That they allowed the space and time to show her just working with dead bodies instead of racing through the storyline as you wanted really improved it.

In your example, she would have been ushered into the door, shown some dead people, the lying game would happen.. then she disappears for 2 episodes and kills someone. Thats rubbish, terrible story telling, much worse than anything in this season.