Why the Reynes and Tarbecks deserved their fates.

[Bobby b's bobby]

OP: "those babies deserved to be drowned to death"

WTF is wrong with people on this forum

Minus the kids is in the first paragraph.

[Ezko]

Yes, Tywin killed them because of ambition. He knew Robert wanted someone to do the dirty work and knew Ned or Jon would never do it.

OP asked who could kill a child without being sadistic, how about someone like Bronn? (Not literally because obviously he wasn't there, but theres plenty of soldiers and sellswords like him) I'm talking about sending someone who is capable of doing it but not going to rape or brutalize the children which is exactly what Gregor and Amory did. They're monsters and Tywin knows it, he knew they would be far from gentle and specifically chose them anyway.

[TimJames]

Tywin orchestrated a mass murder, that's never justified.

That he purposely goaded the Reyne's and Tarbecks into rebellion (instead of working out a payment plan), and that he refused to accept Lord Reyne's surrender, makes it even less justified in my opinion.

If I was king, I would have invited Tywin to Kings landing under some pretense ... then I would have named Tywin a child murderer and had him beheaded.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Tywin orchestrated a mass murder, that's never justified.

That he purposely goaded the Reyne's and Tarbecks into rebellion (instead of working out a payment plan), and that he refused to accept Lord Reyne's surrender, makes it even less justified in my opinion.

If I was king, I would have invited Tywin to Kings landing under some pretense ... then I would have named Tywin a child murderer and had him executed.

Payment plan for killing your grandfather and a hundred men, kidnapping 3 Lannisters, not paying debts, stealing land and mocking the lord paramount. Are you Tytos?

The Reynes terms were bs.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Yes, Tywin killed them because of ambition. He knew Robert wanted someone to do the dirty work and knew Ned or Jon would never do it.

OP asked who could kill a child without being sadistic, how about someone like Bronn? (Not literally because obviously he wasn't there, but theres plenty of soldiers and sellswords like him) I'm talking about sending someone who is capable of doing it but not going to rape or brutalize the children which is exactly what Gregor and Amory did. They're monsters and Tywin knows it, he knew they would be far from gentle and specifically chose them anyway.

 

Sure. How many men in his army would be capable of scaling the walls of the Red keep. And be able to handle themselves against the Palace guards. Then be able to kill children, not only children but royal children? Not many, not many that he could actually trust to do the job.

 

It is funny how everyone (Tywin fans included) can see how monstrous this is, but at the same time presume he has many options of soliders both willing and capable of doing this.

 

Somehow I doubt that the likes of Elys Westerling and Roland Crakehall would have been willing to tarnish their reputations by doing that. Men who would do that are monsters and unfortunately monsters can get carried away.

 

Tywin didn't know that they would react that way. It does not make him any less guilty of the deaths, his negligence made it happen.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Tywin orchestrated a mass murder, that's never justified.

That he purposely goaded the Reyne's and Tarbecks into rebellion (instead of working out a payment plan), and that he refused to accept Lord Reyne's surrender, makes it even less justified in my opinion.

If I was king, I would have invited Tywin to Kings landing under some pretense ... then I would have named Tywin a child murderer and had him beheaded.

 

Considering both the Reynes and Tarbecks sided with the Blackfyres in the First Rebellion while the Lannisters backed the Targs it would be an idiot Targaryen king who would punish them.

[Abdallah]

Tywin orchestrated a mass murder, that's never justified.

That he purposely goaded the Reyne's and Tarbecks into rebellion (instead of working out a payment plan), and that he refused to accept Lord Reyne's surrender, makes it even less justified in my opinion.

If I was king, I would have invited Tywin to Kings landing under some pretense ... then I would have named Tywin a child murderer and had him beheaded.

The rest of the westerlands worked out a payment plan with Tywin, houses Reyne and Tarbeck said "F U". King Aegon wanted lord Tarbeck's head for stealing lands. They murdered Tywin's grandfather. 

[Abdallah]

 

Considering both the Reynes and Tarbecks sided with the Blackfyres in the First Rebellion while the Lannisters backed the Targs it would be an idiot Targaryen king who would punish them.

The Targs wanted Lord Tarbeck's head for stealing lands from other lords. King Aegon was trying to help Tytos, but he died and his son was very busy before he died. 

[Ezko]

 
Sure. How many men in his army would be capable of scaling the walls of the Red keep. And be able to handle themselves against the Palace guards. Then be able to kill children, not only children but royal children? Not many, not many that he could actually trust to do the job.
 
It is funny how everyone (Tywin fans included) can see how monstrous this is, but at the same time presume he has many options of soliders both willing and capable of doing this.
 
Somehow I doubt that the likes of Elys Westerling and Roland Crakehall would have been willing to tarnish their reputations by doing that. Men who would do that are monsters and unfortunately monsters can get carried away.
 
Tywin didn't know that they would react that way. It does not make him any less guilty of the deaths, his negligence made it happen.

The richest man in the seven kingdoms could have found a few skilled sellswords if he cared too.

Is Amory Lorch ever noted as particularly skilled?

So Tywin had no idea how two men in his employ would act in this situation? He has no inkling that maybeeee Gregor is fond of rape?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The richest man in the seven kingdoms could have found a few skilled sellswords if he cared too.

If he had more time, then sure. Trouble is the Trident happened, he had to act very quickly in getting to Kings Landing before Robert.

 

His own men didnt know the plan as we see Crakehall ask Jaime who they should crown after he saw Aerys was dead.
 

Is Amory Lorch ever noted as particularly skilled?

He was certainly capable.
 

So Tywin had no idea how two men in his employ would act in this situation? He has no inkling that maybeeee Gregor is fond of rape?

 

Gregor was 17, he had been knighted by Rhaegar. I'm not sure anyone would have known what he was capable of at that point.

[Ezko]

If he had more time, then sure. Trouble is the Trident happened, he had to act very quickly in getting to Kings Landing before Robert.
 
 
He was certainly capable.
 
 
Gregor was 17, he had been knighted by Rhaegar. I'm not sure anyone would have known what he was capable of at that point.

To the first, fair point; I suppose he would've had to hired men beforehand.

To the second, it's hard to believe Amory Lorch was the only man capable of infiltrating the keep. He's never noted as a great swordsman, his most notable feature is being brutal.

Lastly, Gregor isn't very secretive about his nature and Tywin isnt a fool; he's perceptive and I reallyy doubt he didn't have an idea about what kind of man Gregor was.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

To the second, it's hard to believe Amory Lorch was the only man capable of infiltrating the keep. He's never noted as a great swordsman, his most notable feature is being brutal.

 

eh? Where did I say that he was the only man capable of infiltrating the Keep?

 

Tywin has 12k. Now he needs men who he can trust completely. That whittles down the numbers. He needs men who can handle themselves against the many palace guards they may encounter. That whittles down the numbers. He needs men who can scale the walls. That whittles down the numbers. And he needs men who are willing to kill children. This whittles down the numbers. And he needs men who are willing to kill royalty.  This further whittles down the numbers.

 

Imagine it like a Westerosi game of Guess Who. There is only going to be a select number of candidates that fit the bill.

 

edit: and remember he has other things to deal with  in teh short amount of time he is there. He has to subdue the thousands of loyalists still in the City, he has to secure the treasury, secure the gates and the port and capture the small council, find Jaime and kill or capture the king. He has a lot going on and some of his other trusted men will have jobs of their own to do.

 

Either you think killing children is monstrous and that few in Westeros would do so or that many have no problem with it.
 

Lastly, Gregor isn't very secretive about his nature and Tywin isnt a fool; he's perceptive and I reallyy doubt he didn't have an idea about what kind of man Gregor was.

 

He was barely a man, he was a 17 year old who was knighted by the husband and father of those children. If it was such common knowledge of what kind of a man he was do you really think Rhaegar would have knighted him?

 

 

It is easy to say with the benefit of hindsight what kind of man Gregor was but do you really think Tywin gave a shit of the smallfolk who lived in Gregors lands? That he was keeping tabs on how he treated them? Tywin is the Warden of the West, a year or so ago the Hand of the King while Gregor is a landed knight, one of thousands under his command. He is not really going to have too much of an interest in him beyond him following orders and keeping the peace.

[Ezko]

 
eh? Where did I say that he was the only man capable of infiltrating the keep?
 
Either you think killing children is monstrous and that few in Westeros would do so or that many have no problem with it.
 
 
He was barely a man, he was a 17 year old who was knighted by the husband and father of those children. If it was such common knowledge of what kind of a man he was do you really think Rhaegar would have knighted him?
 
 
It is easy to say with the benefit of hindsight what kind of man Gregor was but do you really think Tywin gave a shit of the smallfolk who lived in Gregors lands? That he was keeping tabs on how he treated them? Tywin is the Warden of the West, a year or so ago the Hand of the King while Gregor is a landed knight, one of thousands under his command. He is not really going to have too much of an interest in him beyond him following orders and keeping the peace.

You asked who else would be capable of infiltrating the keep.

It's monstrous AND I think many would do it. It's Westeros

Gregor already had a reputation and we know very little about Rhaegar so I don't think you can make any assumptions about that.

If you're right about everything: that these were the only two men in his employ who would do the deed and were capable of getting into the palace and that Tywin didnt know how they would act at all in that situation, why didn't he just tell them not to rape or brutalize the mother/children? He didn't tell them this because he didn't want to, he was fine letting these two handle it as they wished.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

You asked who else would be capable of infiltrating the keep.

As well as the other criteria. Pointless sending someone to do a job who does not fill all the criteria. Many could scale the walls but would they all kill royal children etc.
 

It's monstrous AND I think many would do it. It's Westeros

It is not that common.

 

And it is not just killing a child but the heir to the Throne. Earning the ire of Dorne and half the kingdom that fought for the Targs in the war.

 

15 years later Robert is still worried about the Targs.

 

There are still those in the Seven Kingdoms who call me Usurper. Do you forget how many houses fought for Targaryen in the war? They bide their time for now, but give them half a chance, they will murder me in my bed, and my sons with me. If the beggar king crosses with a Dothraki horde at his back, the traitors will join him."

 

 

Gregor already had a reputation and we know very little about Rhaegar so I don't think you can make any assumptions about that.

You are making assumptions about how well know this 17 year olds reputation was.

 

"Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle."
 

If you're right about everything: that these were the only two men in his employ who would do the deed and were capable of getting into the palace and that Tywin didnt know how they would act at all in that situation, why didn't he just tell them not to rape or brutalize the mother/children? He didn't tell them this because he didn't want to, he was fine letting these two handle it as they wished.

 

Did I say they were the only men? No, but his options would have been limited. Is that so hard to believe?

[Lady Sharya]

You asked who else would be capable of infiltrating the keep.
It's monstrous AND I think many would do it. It's Westeros
Gregor already had a reputation and we know very little about Rhaegar so I don't think you can make any assumptions about that.
If you're right about everything: that these were the only two men in his employ who would do the deed and were capable of getting into the palace and that Tywin didnt know how they would act at all in that situation, why didn't he just tell them not to rape or brutalize the mother/children? He didn't tell them this because he didn't want to, he was fine letting these two handle it as they wished.

Also, the fact that Tywin kept BOTH of them in his emplyment and used them the same way, 15yrs later, to rape & pillage the Riverlands, speaks volumes for Tywin's knowledge and intent.

[Ezko]

 
Did I say they were the only men? No, but his options would have been limited. Is that so hard to believe?

I'm not arguing that his options wouldn't be limited. That doesn't mean he couldn't have tried; find other men and/or order Gregor and Amory to be "gentle" (aka no rape or brutality).

Would it have been so hard for Tywin to do that?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Also, the fact that Tywin kept BOTH of them in his emplyment and used them the same way, 15yrs later, to rape & pillage the Riverlands, speaks volumes for Tywin's knowledge and intent.

 

Why would he not?

 

King Robert and the Hand Jon Arryn are perfectly fine with them going unpunished. Ser Gregor is a regular participant in Royal Tourneys.

 

Tywin asked them to kill children and they did so. It would be a dick move to punish them and as a pragmatic man it would be stupid to dispose of such men willing to do something so monstrous, after all such men don't grow on trees.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I'm not arguing that his options wouldn't be limited. That doesn't mean he couldn't have tried; find other men and/or order Gregor and Amory to be "gentle" (aka no rape or brutality).

Would it have been so hard for Tywin to do that?

 

No. That is why I said he is clearly to blame for his negligence. I said that in one of my first responses to you and you ignored that point. Just because he didn't give the orders to rape and be so brutal does not mean he is somehow innocent of the crime.

 

Time was an issue. Secrecy was also an issue, he could not interview the candidates.

[Ezko]

 
Why would he not?
 
King Robert and the Hand Jon Arryn are perfectly fine with them going unpunished. Ser Gregor is a regular participant in Royal Tourneys.
 
Tywin asked them to kill children and they did so. It would be a dick move to punish them and as a pragmatic man it would be stupid to dispose of such men willing to do something so monstrous, after all such men don't grow on trees.

We dont know if either was perfectly fine with it. Robert allowed it because of his hatred for Targaryeans and didn't punish anyone because he had little interest in creating conflict with anyone, especially Tywin. Saying Jon Arryn was fine with Gregor and Amory's actions is quite the assumption.

He didn't ask them to rape and brutalize Elia and the children in your opinion, yet it would be a dick move to punish them because he asked them to kill the children? Wouldn't it be not a dick move to punish them since, according to you, he didn't approve of the brutal treatment?

[Bobby b's bobby]

We dont know if either was perfectly fine with it. Robert allowed it because of his hatred for Targaryeans and didn't punish anyone because he had little interest in creating conflict with anyone, especially Tywin. Saying Jon Arryn was fine with Gregor and Amory's actions is quite the assumption.

He didn't ask them to rape and brutalize Elia and the children in your opinion, yet it would be a dick move to punish them because he asked them to kill the children? Wouldn't it be not a dick move to punish them since, according to you, he didn't approve of the brutal treatment?

If Jon didn't approve we'd get some mention. Jon was probably thankful the Targs were dealt with and Robert didn't need to order it himself.

Tywin ordered the kids dead, they killed the kids the methods don't really matter and he'd be a fool to punish them if the king wasn't bothering.