Was Ned wrong by not telling truth to Robert about Lyanna's eloping?

[purple-eyes]

you are reading more into one line than everything else written about Ned and his nature. You will believe what you want whether the text really supports it, or not. 

that is cat's feeling. 

Not mine. 

She knew Ned well but she still felt insecure after having five children. 

She told us straightforwardly about her feeling in her pov. 

If you think this is irrational, well, you are not the first person who thought she is irrational. 

 

 

[The scourge of westeros]

Cersei is cruel and pathetic, classic sociopath. She has sown everything she is now reaping: end of story  

Catelyn is irrational in her feelings towards Jon, and EVERYBODY in the family knew it besides her and Sansa, who effectively shunned him and didn't have contact with him as much as those who knew and trusted his nature.

Robert was a drunk, great warrior, and filanderimg husband. Yes he smacked cersei, but even she said it was one time. A relatively well-meaning man who bit off more than he could chew. 

If you think Ned treated cat bossy and cold, I'd love for your essay on Brandon and cat lol

[The scourge of westeros]

well. Then we certainly have different idea on this love thing. 

Tell me: 

which one means undying love? And which one is moving on? 

talk about your exwife casually and honestly with your current wife? 

Or hide something about her deep inside you, got strangely angry when being asked carefully who she is, And forced everybody being silent on this? 

 

 

refer to my last reply...

[purple-eyes]

Cersei is cruel and pathetic, classic sociopath. She has sown everything she is now reaping: end of story  

Catelyn is irrational in her feelings towards Jon, and EVERYBODY in the family knew it besides her and Sansa, who effectively shunned him and didn't have contact with him as much as those who knew and trusted his nature.

Robert was a drunk, great warrior, and filanderimg husband. Yes he smacked cersei, but even she said it was one time. A relatively well-meaning man who bit off more than he could chew. 

If you think Ned treated cat bossy and cold, I'd love for your essay on Brandon and cat lol

this is the scary part. 

Ned treated cat very well and lovingly  for everything, but he only behaved bossy and cold once, for what? For Jon's mother. 

This means she is very special to him. 

[bemused]

prove that...

Indeed. Cat's imaginings are not proof.

purple-eyes.. I'm not saying that I can't feel sympathy for Cat, she's perhaps the main victim of her fears and imaginings..but whether she knows it or not, she is wrong.. It's a pity, but there it is..

If we didn't know before, her irrationality becomes evident in her disagreement with Robb over his succession. He could die in battle. So far as he knows, Jeyne is not pregnant.. So far as either of them know Bran and Rickon are dead, they strongly suspect that Arya is dead. They agree that Sansa should not inherit and pass Winterfell to the Lannisters. Yet cat would rather pass the succession to some very distant cousins (she can't even be sure of their names) of whom she knows nothing. They might be really horrible power hungry people , for all she knows. 

The other option is Jon, who has never demonstrated anything but love and caring for his supposed siblings.. and who she believes is Ned's son .. yet she's willing to trust any imagined child of Robb's to their care.. does she not , to any rational mind have more cause to fear them than Jon.

Poor Cat . She's so wrong.

[purple-eyes]

refer to my last reply...

jon is innocent, and in a perfect world, cat should treat him warmly and accept him as son of her husband and treat him as her own, but his existence is the proof of her husband's betrayal and also undying love. 

No wife will be happy about this. 

 

[purple-eyes]

Indeed. Cat's imaginings are not proof.

purple-eyes.. I'm not saying that I can't feel sympathy for Cat, she's perhaps the main victim of her fears and imaginings..but whether she knows it or not, she is wrong.. It's a pity, but there it is..

If we didn't know before, her irrationality becomes evident in her disagreement with Robb over his succession. He could die in battle. So far as he knows, Jeyne is not pregnant.. So far as either of them know Bran and Rickon are dead, they strongly suspect that Arya is dead. They agree that Sansa should not inherit and pass Winterfell to the Lannisters. Yet cat would rather pass the succession to some very distant cousins (she can't even be sure of their names) of whom she knows nothing. They might be really horrible power hungry people , for all she knows. 

The other option is Jon, who has never demonstrated anything but love and caring for his supposed siblings.. and who she believes is Ned's son .. yet she's willing to trust any imagined child of Robb's to their care.. does she not , to any rational mind have more cause to fear them than Jon.

Poor Cat . She's so wrong.

Wrong? 

Son of a woman who made her husband betrayed her and embarrassed her finally became the heir of winterfell. This is what she worried for so many years and finally came true. In her eyes, this dead woman won. She got heart of Ned, her son got winterfell. A home she took care of for so many years, finally was taken by this bastard. 

How could she be happy with this? 

 

 

 

 

 

[bemused]

jon is innocent, and in a perfect world, cat should treat him warmly and accept him as son of her husband and treat him as her own, but his existence is the proof of her husband's betrayal and also undying love. 

No wife will be happy about this. 

 

Few wives would cling to the idea that there was an undying love coming between her and her husband for all that time, or at least to care so deeply about it.. Cat did, but she was wrong. But wait a minute - she didn't consider the getting of a bastard betrayal, and Ned met Ashara before he ever met Cat... She got hung up on the rumour of Ashara being Jon's mother. We know she took Ned's anger as proof . The point is that was a foolish thing to cling to..she had fourteen years to consider that there might be some other reason for Ned's reaction. Such as it maybe wasn't true.. and Ned had killed Arthur Dayne.. perhaps he didn't want the Dayne family to have more reason to hate Starks, because of a rumour among the smallfolk.

[purple-eyes]

Few wives would cling to the idea that there was an undying love coming between her and her husband for all that time, or at least to care so deeply about it.. Cat did, but she was wrong. But wait a minute - she didn't consider the getting of a bastard betrayal, and Ned met Ashara before he ever met Cat... She got hung up on the rumour of Ashara being Jon's mother. We know she took Ned's anger as proof . The point is that was a foolish thing to cling to..she had fourteen years to consider that there might be some other reason for Ned's reaction. Such as it maybe wasn't true.. and Ned had killed Arthur Dayne.. perhaps he didn't want the Dayne family to have more reason to hate Starks, because of a rumour among the smallfolk.

cat loved Ned, that is why she was hurt and cared so much. She wanted to know who she is. Not just the bastard. She wanted to know if she was his lover. 

did cersei bother to know who is robert's whore? No, she did not care. 

Are you trying to criticize this on cat? 

Seriously? She loved her husband. She did not choose to ignore this and get a paramour for herself, ok? 

And why need cat figure out by herself? Can not Ned tell her that: I killed arthur dayne, so I do not want to talk about house dayne? 

Ned's attitude is only misleading her. 

And you are blaming cat irrationally. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bemused]

Wrong? 

Son of a woman who made her husband betrayed her and embarrassed her finally became the heir of winterfell. This is what she worried for so many years and finally came true. In her eyes, this dead woman won. She got heart of Ned, her son got winterfell. A home she took care of for so many years, finally was taken by this bastard. 

How could she be happy with this? 

You know this is getting very silly... We know she's wrong. We do understand her (even pity her), but she's wrong. She says she's thinking of the welfare of Robb's heirs (if any). That is either a lie , or she can't think rationally enough to see the wisdom in putting one's trust in the person who knows and loves her children, and has never shown signs of harming them in any way ... rather than to put trust into some stranger who has never known her family, knows nothing of the North and may not have the confidence of Ned's bannermen. Once one of them was in power ,and getting children of his own, it's far more questionable that they would want to give it all back to Robb's (possible) child ,or that Robb's child would live to maturity. 

So Catelyn is willing to betray her own words "Family, duty, honour" ... her duty to Robb's potential heirs, because she imagines Ned loved Ashara first and better than her.. some fable she has invented as a teenager and refuses to let go of..

[purple-eyes]

You know this is getting very silly... We know she's wrong. We do understand her (even pity her), but she's wrong. She says she's thinking of the welfare of Robb's heirs (if any). That is either a lie , or she can't think rationally enough to see the wisdom in putting one's trust in the person who knows and loves her children, and has never shown signs of harming them in any way rather than to put trust into some stranger who has never known her family, knows nothing of the North and may not have the confidence of Ned's bannermen. Once one of them was in power ,and getting children of his own, it's far more questionable that they would want to give it all back to Robb's (possible) child ,or that Robb's child would live to maturity. 

So Catelyn is willing to betray her own words "Family, duty, honour" ... her duty to Robb's potential heirs, because she imagines Ned loved Ashara first and better than her.. some fable she has invented as a teenager and refuses to let go of..

How does she know jon would happily give everything back to Robb's child? Jon can easily gain power in winterfell and had much better control on everything than minor relatives. He would exceed cat and rule the winterfell all but name (if robb had a little child). And he had way better claim than relative after legimitization. 

Again She is not in his head. 

He is a person she dislike and mistrust. 

She is not a fanboy reader who knew everything in jon's mind. 

[Wall Flower]

Cersei is cruel and pathetic, classic sociopath. She has sown everything she is now reaping: end of story  

Catelyn is irrational in her feelings towards Jon, and EVERYBODY in the family knew it besides her and Sansa, who effectively shunned him and didn't have contact with him as much as those who knew and trusted his nature.

Robert was a drunk, great warrior, and filanderimg husband. Yes he smacked cersei, but even she said it was one time. A relatively well-meaning man who bit off more than he could chew. 

If you think Ned treated cat bossy and cold, I'd love for your essay on Brandon and cat lol

Okay, can we please not minimise spousal abuse, a big issue in my country at the moment. Actually, Cersei tells Ned that Robert had hit her once or twice before the vicious backhand blow that he witnessed personally 'and never on the face before'. Robert is certainly abusive in bed, where he has the power and Cersei shows real signs of being deeply affected by this long after Robert's death. I think Cersei is a narcissist with no real capacity for empathy and a distorted view of herself and the world. However, the fact that she is a definite villain, doesn't make Robert any less of an abusive, serially unfaithful husband - especially considering that he knew nothing of Cersei's actual crimes.

With regard to Lyanna, there is a level of delusion in the way Robert creates a love story out of a brief acquaintance with the girl and an agreement with her father that Lyanna had no say in.

I kind of agree with Purple Eyes when it comes to Cat. Her insecurity about Jon wasn't entirely rational but it was fuelled by Ned's complete refusal to discuss Jon's mother at all. She might have been able to move on better if Ned had been able to make up some comforting lie about the mother (for Cat and Jon) rather than denying any sort of closure about that part of his life. Cat was perceptive enough to see that Ned was keeping something from her and that he must have loved Jon's mother deeply.

[bemused]

cat loved Ned, that is why she was hurt and cared so much. She wanted to know who she is. Not just the bastard. She wanted to know if she was his lover. 

did cersei bother to know who is robert's whore? No, she did not care. 

Are you trying to criticize this on cat? 

Seriously? She loved her husband. She did not choose to ignore this and get a paramour for herself, ok? 

And why need cat figure out by herself? Can not Ned tell her that: I killed arthur dayne, so I do not want to talk about house dayne? 

Ned's attitude is only misleading her. 

And you are blaming cat irrationally. 

 

I am offering my observation of Cat's character.. She has some very admirable qualities, but this is her one great weakness..

Personally, I think Ned should have assured her that Ashara was not his lover (but since he didn't, maybe she was..we have to wait for George to tell us). Still, that wouldn't make her attitude to Jon any more rational. She needed only to open her eyes, and allow herself to know him (not even love him), to see that Robb is correct.

Who suggested that she should get a paramour ??????

She's been dwelling on this for fourteen years..does she need Ned to spell everything out for her? Some version of the story of Ned and Arthur Dayne is well known... Wouldn't it be normal to think- maybe it wasn't this way, maybe it was that way, or some other way..? When faced with a puzzle, isn't it natural to consider various solutions ?

Obviously Ned's attitude mislead her.. but it might not have been so misleading or so all-consuming to another person.

I'm not blaming Cat, alone (and not irrationally) ..I'm certainly not saying everything is all her fault.. but she is wrong about Jon.

Now, readers have seen Jon guiding Bran and Rickon, his interaction with Arya.. and we only look in on brief scenes..how much more caring behaviour would it have been possible for Cat to observe over 14 yrs? She wouldn't need to be "in his head" , only to allow herself to see what was going on day to day.

How does she know jon would happily give everything back to Robb's child? Jon can easily gain power in winterfell and had much better control on everything than minor relatives. He would exceed cat and rule the winterfell all but name (if robb had a little child). And he had way better claim than relative after legimitization. 

Again She is not in his head. 

He is a person she dislike and mistrust. 

She is not a fanboy reader who knew everything in jon's mind. 

How does she know anyone would step down? At least, if she'd been looking, she should know that Jon would be kind to any child of Robb's.

He is a person she dislike and mistrust. 

 ..this is the irrational part. It's beyond reason. As The scourge of westeros said.. EVERYBODY in the family knew it. .. And when Robb sees that she still is unwilling to relent , when she believes all her other children dead but Sansa, who is married to a Lannister, he has no choice but to sideline her at Seaguard until the fighting is over (after all, she had made decisions without him before, when he was off fighting). If he died, the contents of the will would be known and she would not have an opportunity to voice her opposition, or tell any of the bannermen anything different.

[Dragonheart]

I believe the only time we see them together at the same place and time is at the feast during the Tourney at Harrenhal. Lyanna is hanging with her brothers while Robert is preoccupied with drinking his buddies under the table. They're already publicly betrothed to each other so would have every excuse and incentive to sit together or dance together without causing any gossip or comment, but we don't see them interact at all.

Of course, they must have interacted at some point, because Lyanna knew him well enough to understand his nature (although it wouldn't take much to grasp such an obvious component of his personality). I think it's pretty easy to surmise that spending time with his fiancee was fairly low on Robert's list of priorities.

 

Thank you.

That' s what I thought myself. I guess they had some kind of interaction but not enough in order for him to believe that she was in love with him (and I' m not sure if he cared). Also, I think that Lyanna didn't exactly know him, it was rather she knew about him, likely she heard about him and his bastard child. 

What I am thinking is that if Robert didn't have reasons to believe that Lyanna loved him, which I think it was the case, and Ned told him the truth, it would just hurt  Robert's pride, is all. He would be like "What? My betrothed didn't want to marry ME but someone else?" or something like that. 

Anyway, I don't believe that Ned should have told him the truth for all the reasons others mentioned above. Lyanna was dead, Jon was in danger and Robert wouldn't really change a thing in his behavior and his life. He was who he was.

[purple-eyes]

 

I am offering my observation of Cat's character.. She has some very admirable qualities, but this is her one great weakness..

Personally, I think Ned should have assured her that Ashara was not his lover (but since he didn't, maybe she was..we have to wait for George to tell us). Still, that wouldn't make her attitude to Jon any more rational. She needed only to open her eyes, and allow herself to know him (not even love him), to see that Robb is correct.

Who suggested that she should get a paramour ??????

She's been dwelling on this for fourteen years..does she need Ned to spell everything out for her? Some version of the story of Ned and Arthur Dayne is well known... Wouldn't it be normal to think- maybe it wasn't this way, maybe it was that way, or some other way..? When faced with a puzzle, isn't it natural to consider various solutions ?

Obviously Ned's attitude mislead her.. but it might not have been so misleading or so all-consuming to another person.

I'm not blaming Cat, alone (and not irrationally) ..I'm certainly not saying everything is all her fault.. but she is wrong about Jon.

Now, readers have seen Jon guiding Bran and Rickon, his interaction with Arya.. and we only look in on brief scenes..how much more caring behaviour would it have been possible for Cat to observe over 14 yrs? She wouldn't need to be "in his head" , only to allow herself to see what was going on day to day.

 

How does she know anyone would step down? At least, if she'd been looking, she should know that Jon would be kind to any child of Robb's.

 ..this is the irrational part. It's beyond reason. As The scourge of westeros said.. EVERYBODY in the family knew it. .. And when Robb sees that she still is unwilling to relent , when she believes all her other children dead but Sansa, who is married to a Lannister, he has no choice but to sideline her at Seaguard until the fighting is over (after all, she had made decisions without him before, when he was off fighting). If he died, the contents of the will would be known and she would not have an opportunity to voice her opposition, or tell any of the bannermen anything different.

it is irrational and beyond reason to dislike and mistrust jon?

Seriously? 

Not everybody has to be his fanboy. 

No matter how wonderful he is, Cat has her reason to dislike him. Why? This is the proof of betrayal of her own husband. This is a man who can challenge claim of her own children. This is the son of a woman who Ned loved so deeply over herself. 

Remember what arya said about Jon's mother with edric? 

She did not want to hear her daddy loved somebody else other than her mother. Not even Jon's rumored mother. Try to imagine cat's feeling. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bemused]

it is irrational and beyond reason to dislike and mistrust jon?

Seriously? 

Not everybody has to be his fanboy. 

No matter how wonderful he is, Cat has her reason to dislike him. Why? This is the proof of betrayal of her own husband. This is a man who can challenge claim of her own children. This is the son of a woman who Ned loved so deeply over herself. 

Remember what arya said about Jon's mother with edric? 

She did not want to hear her daddy loved somebody else other than her mother. Not even Jon's rumored mother. Try to imagine cat's feeling. 

It is irrational and beyond reason for the fictional character Cat to dislike Jon as much as she does for as long as she does, in spite of clear evidence of his honest sentiments for his "siblings".

Where does this silly "fanboy" label come into it?

Yes, I'm serious .. but I'm not going to continue to discuss it pointlessly. A thirty-five year old woman ought to have a better understanding than a 9 -10 yr. old girl, or for that matter, a better understanding than her own 18 yr old self.

That she doesn't, is part of Cat's tragedy.

Just like real people, George's characters have differing opinions.. but none of them are right all the time, no matter how sincerely they hold those opinions and none of them act wisely all the time. Even the best of them might do something misguided or shabby now and then. Cat is no exception.

I don't find your arguments convincing and you obviously feel the same about mine.. so it's time to agree to disagree.

[The scourge of westeros]

Indeed. Cat's imaginings are not proof.

purple-eyes.. I'm not saying that I can't feel sympathy for Cat, she's perhaps the main victim of her fears and imaginings..but whether she knows it or not, she is wrong.. It's a pity, but there it is..

If we didn't know before, her irrationality becomes evident in her disagreement with Robb over his succession. He could die in battle. So far as he knows, Jeyne is not pregnant.. So far as either of them know Bran and Rickon are dead, they strongly suspect that Arya is dead. They agree that Sansa should not inherit and pass Winterfell to the Lannisters. Yet cat would rather pass the succession to some very distant cousins (she can't even be sure of their names) of whom she knows nothing. They might be really horrible power hungry people , for all she knows. 

The other option is Jon, who has never demonstrated anything but love and caring for his supposed siblings.. and who she believes is Ned's son .. yet she's willing to trust any imagined child of Robb's to their care.. does she not , to any rational mind have more cause to fear them than Jon.

Poor Cat . She's so wrong.

thank goodness, I was beginning to think I was irrational...

[Clegane'sPup]

I can't answer the question "Was Ned wrong by not telling truth to Robert about Lyanna eloping, because I do not know if she eloped.

All I really know is that Cat says "He [Brandon] was on his way to Riverrun when . . ." Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. ". . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do." 

Perhaps Eddard knows something I as a reader do not know. Perhaps Martin the author will share his Westeros worldly knowledge with his readers at a later date.

[bemused]

thank goodness, I was beginning to think I was irrational...

Not by my reckoning.. ..whatever that's worth.

I can't answer the question "Was Ned wrong by not telling truth to Robert about Lyanna eloping, because I do not know if she eloped.

All I really know is that Cat says "He [Brandon] was on his way to Riverrun when . . ." Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. ". . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do." 

Perhaps Eddard knows something I as a reader do not know. Perhaps Martin the author will share his Westeros worldly knowledge with his readers at a later date.

Right... We don't know that she eloped. I used to feel pretty sure that she did. I still feel pretty sure that it wasn't the abduction it appeared to be, but recently, in my speculations, I've been leaning to a third option, that Rhaegar initially took her into "protective custody" because she was about to be abducted by Aerys. (Or abducted her on Aerys orders, but didn't take her to Aerys... and in the meantime, fell in love with her.)

Bran doesn't want to hear about the events at Harrenhall other than the jousting, but there was .. a great seven-sided melee as well, and archery and axethrowing, a horse race and tourney of singers. ... I suspect those last two might be particularly interesting to us.(Lyanna was "half a centaur")

Why did Aerys urge men to challenge the KoLT and why was he so certain the KoLT was no friend to him ?

Did Rhaegar discover Lyanna and help her to evade Robert and Lonmouth?

And did Aerys eventually find out the KoLT was Lyanna (if she was) anyway ? .. Was he already suspicious of Rickard's marriage alliances?.. Is it likely that Aerys had aged out of his former licentiousness?

Who was ordering those KG about and did they start out with Rhaegar ?

The more I think about it, the more I think  a straight-up either / or proposition is too simple for George... And surely he must share, at some point...?!?!

[Clegane'sPup]

When it comes to Lyanna Stark I really do not have an opinion. From what I have read I do not know if she was kidnapped, eloped, or had a torrid love affair with the Targ. All I know is what I posted as I read in the book;  Cat remembers, "He [Brandon] was on his way to Riverrun when . . ." Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. ". . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do." 

How did Brandon Stark hear about Lyanna? Why was Brandon Stark's squire (Glover), the one that rode with Eddard to Rheagar's tower of joy, the only one left alive when the Mad King supposedly put the others to death?

Sorry Bemused, I don't have any thoughts or ideas about the KotLT other than I just kinda sorta think that Lyanna was it. That idea comes from my teenage years when I rowdy, rambunctious and mischievous.