Why Do You Hate Jamie?

[Dayne's Sword]

QUOTE(The Red Viper Of Dorne @ Dec 1 2006, 14.41) *

Jaime is a legend. Simple.

So is Richard III.

yes he is last true king of england. and hes never gonig to get redemption for the 2 princes. no one can find proof to say he did or didnt have them murdered. old rich had his reasons i expect and hard choices to make. much the same as jamie. i wonder if some correllation between the two is there. and in the place of shakespere. tom o sevens steps into the role and does the character assination as a play. not that he needs to make stuff up to do jaime in. no two ways about it hes better than he was but he was a amoral git

[Daemrion]

He acknowledged to Catelyn that he didn't give a damn about the Starks. He took the white because of dreams of glory, but mostly for Cersei, as he admits to himself. When he took the White, he found out that he had been named by Aerys to spite Tywin. He was callous enough not to give a damn about anyone that was killed by Aerys in his mad state. The only time he thought about objecting was when Aerys was raping Rhaella.

Jaime went away inside when Aerys had the Starks killed.

And he was the only one who even entertained any thoughts that Aerys was doing something wrong. Hightower basically told him, 'Aerys can do anything he wants no matter how horrible it is'. So in effect he is better than Dayne, Hightower and all those esteemed Kingsguard who let Aerys get away with committing atrocities without doing anything about it.

I think he killed Aerys out of spite, as payback for 'tricking' him into the KG. I think he didn't give a fig about King's Landing, and even if he did, I think there would have been other ways to prevent it from burning. He just didn't care about it, all that mattered was killing Aerys, which was why he was wearing his golden armour, as he notes to himself.

Also to save his father who was inside the city, of course he was sacking it. But I think it said, Jaime was a Lannister long before he took the White.

So he can get started on the path to redemption. But he still has to start, imo. Having so much shit for honour that the pail is filled to the brim doesn't quite sit well with me as defence for flinging Bran from the window, however... That's a coward's way out.

To make sure the secret about him and Cersei never got out, Bran had to die. I seriously don't think that they could have frightened him into silence. That just sets up a classic blackmail position.

[HarvestMoon]

Agreed. Bran had to fly.

As he got older, Bran would have made sence of what he saw.

So, just like Stannis and Davos, Jamie must be rewarded for the good and punished for the bad....So what should be done??

Lord Commander Jamie, of the Nights Watch.

Has a nice ring to it.

[Antonius Pius]

Hello Daemrion, nice to cross swords with you again on this issue!

Jaime went away inside when Aerys had the Starks killed.

From ACOK, When Lord Rickard is burning:

"I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armour and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."

"Aerys..." Catelyn could taste bile at the back of her throat. The story was so hideous she suspected it had to be true. "Aerys was mad, the whole realm knew it, but if you would have me believe you slew him to avenge Brandon Stark..."

"I made no such claim. The Starks were nothing to me..."

I think it's clear he didn't give a damn.

About Hightower and Dayne and Darry etc.: as far as we know, the other KG of Aerys' day were honourable men in all possible ways. None of them slept with his sister, or the queen. None of them ever killed anybody that did not deserve killing. Jaime was never honourable, he was an arrogant lordling who loved fighting and glory. There really isn't anything more to Jaime, until he kills his king. Then he is frowned upon and gets a large chip on his shoulder.

The KG are in a bit of a quandary when the king turns out to be a madman like Aerys, there is no doubt about that. Their oaths require them to serve the king and the royal family in all kinds of ways. But they cannot go against them. They have forsworn everything out of their former lives to devote themselves entirely to the king. If a king is mad, the entire realm suffers, we have seen this in real history too. Royalty creates a certain aura around it top legitamise it's authority, but that becomes a negative effect if the king is unbalanced. The only semi-graceful way out is if the mad king is replaced by his heir, with the consent and agreement of as many lords as possible (IMO, of course). Rhaegar realised he had waited too long with a response, and he didn't get a chance to set things aright when he rode out for the Trident.

The KG are in a no-win situation, but Jaime went one-worse and did the one thing ALL his oaths required him to prevent any others by any means to accomplish.

Also to save his father who was inside the city, of course he was sacking it. But I think it said, Jaime was a Lannister long before he took the White.

His father was in no conceivable danger. No more than anyone else in King's Landing at the time, to be sure. He was surrounded by his own men. Jaime went to kill Aerys when he knew his father's men were already assaulting the Red Keep, and it's fall was known to be imminent. And that Jaime remained a Lannister after he swore the oath proves that he didn't take the oath seriously. He gave up all his claims to his family, and supposedly devoted himself to the king.

IMO Jaime feels entitled to the same kind of glory that surrounds Arthur Dayne, but he is frustrated that he doesn't get it, while at the same time he doesn't realise his actions are so depraved that he does not warrant glory. You know, if the oaths he takes conflict, there is a simple solution: do not swear oaths that conflict with oaths you have already sworn. Jaime doesn't, he takes the coward's way out, saying there are too many oaths. He doesn't care about the oaths, he wants the glory and he wants to emulate Dayne as a warrior. That's all he thinks of. Even now he still thinks he would have liked to kill Robert himself. What does that tell you? It tell's me that he's an arrogant airhead, used to getting his way. He has been forced to reconsider some things because he can no longer go on as he had, but that is the only reason. So IMO he still has some ways to go before redemption is on the table.

To make sure the secret about him and Cersei never got out, Bran had to die. I seriously don't think that they could have frightened him into silence. That just sets up a classic blackmail position.

Well, yeah, I agree. Shutting up Bran would be difficult. By the way, he considers his options, looks at Cersei, says "The things I do for love", and then flings Bran. So it's cold-blooded (attempted) murder, not an impulse action.

The point is, if Jaime and Cersei would not be engaged in so horrific a crime, there would be no need to kill the witness. If they were playing at cards, they could have dealt Bran in. But no, they were engaged in a most horrible crime (in the eyes of Westeros, and I'm sure Robert would have agreed), and that is where the blame lies. If you argue that Bran gave them no choice because he had seen them, you're taking the villain's road. That's mobster-thinking.

By the way, regarding Aerys' death: I think many people here reason this issue by Hollywood-logic: the bad deserves to die/should die, so the good guy can kill him without consequences. In the real world, there are always consequences. Cops have to cooperate with investigations by Internal Affairs, even if the shooting appears to be as straightforward as possible.

[HarvestMoon]

Strong points Antonious.

I think people tend to be harder on Jamie because of his personality, and go easy on the more likeable charaters.

Take Eddard.

Ned swore vows to Robert, yet was harboring the Targaryn hier to the iron thron up in Winterfell. The hier that could have brought Robert down...had Robert not had such a taste for bore and wine.

Jamie brought down his king in a more direct fasion. I know jamie probably had many reasons for killing aerys, but we are talking about breaking oaths. Justification of why they are broken doesnt really matter.

Looking at it like this, I see Ned as another conteder for the title of "Kingslayer"

[Antonius Pius]

Looking at it like this, I see Ned as another conteder for the title of "Kingslayer"

Promise me, Ned....

Ned could not bear to refuse his dying sister, and honourable as he is, he follows up with his promises. And he has felt bad about it all his life. How many times does Ned reflect on it? Jaime doesn't even feel guilty. He feels cheated out of the opportunity to murder Robert himself.

Ned wasn't necessarily harbouring the heir to the Iron Throne, he was protecting his nephew. We have no indication that Ned would ever have told Jon, nor that he was likely to set his claim to the Iron Throne in motion. He probably wanted to keep him alive, and give him a place in the North somewhere. Maybe as a little lordling, maybe as castellan of Winterfell for Ned and then Robb, who knows?

[HarvestMoon]

Promise me, Ned....

Ned could not bear to refuse his dying sister, and honourable as he is, he follows up with his promises. And he has felt bad about it all his life. How many times does Ned reflect on it? Jaime doesn't even feel guilty. He feels cheated out of the opportunity to murder Robert himself.

Ned wasn't necessarily harbouring the heir to the Iron Throne, he was protecting his nephew. We have no indication that Ned would ever have told Jon, nor that he was likely to set his claim to the Iron Throne in motion. He probably wanted to keep him alive, and give him a place in the North somewhere. Maybe as a little lordling, maybe as castellan of Winterfell for Ned and then Robb, who knows?

I agree AP. Ned had his reason for breaking his oath. He had an oath to his King, an oath to protect his family, and an oath to Lyanna.

Jamie had his King, and oath to his family, and an oath to the realm.

But again....the reasons WHY do not really matter. Once again....we stick up for the more likeable characters.

Fact still stand. Ned broke his oath against his king. No matter what his intentions were.

And I think Ned did want to tell Jon. His last thoughts in his cell were of Jon and wishing he could talk with him.

[Guest Other-in-law]

"I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armour and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."

"Aerys..." Catelyn could taste bile at the back of her throat. The story was so hideous she suspected it had to be true. "Aerys was mad, the whole realm knew it, but if you would have me believe you slew him to avenge Brandon Stark..."

"I made no such claim. The Starks were nothing to me..."

I think it's clear he didn't give a damn.

That seems like a pretty obtuse reading, to me. If Hightower wasn't concerned that Jaime was in fact judging the King, then why, pray tell, would he feel the need to point that out?

Jaime's revulsion obviously must have shown through his face or posture or something.

[Red Sun]

But again....the reasons WHY do not really matter. Once again....we stick up for the more likeable characters.

Fact still stand. Ned broke his oath against his king. No matter what his intentions were.

I don't know if that is really the question. You (general you) don't have to turn Jaime into a nice guy, just because you think that he is a fascinating character or because you find a certain connection with this character. I really like reading Jaime's chapters and I don't hate him, but I still think that he is a sort of asshole for many of the reasons AP pointed to out.

The difference between Ned and Jaime is that Ned usually cares about other people and about being a honorable man and that Jaime very often choses the easy way out, makes many excuses for himself and acts very often like a petulant teenager. The reason why Ned breaks an oath and why Jaime breaks an oath are fundamentally different, because of their characters.

[BerryHarryBear]

That seems like a pretty obtuse reading, to me. If Hightower wasn't concerned that Jaime was in fact judging the King, then why, pray tell, would he feel the need to point that out?

Jaime's revulsion obviously must have shown through his face or posture or something.

I think Jamies revulsion and other feelings are ampally reflected in the instructions he gives to the New Kingsguard. Sorry I do not have the books to give an exact Quote but it went something like this. "Your oath is to Protect and Serve the King, but your duty is also to protect the KINGDOM. If you see the King, especially a young King (read - or unstable - here), doing something detrimental to the Kingdom, you must prevent it."

I think that it quite clearly shows that Jamie wants to set a much higher standard for this KG than there had been for Arys KG, and tie them more to the Kingdom than the King.

If you have it, post the real quote. I have GOT to get my books back!!

[Dayne's Sword]

it comes down to morality of the individual.

do you keep an oath to a man to protect him and then find him murdering innocents. is he worthy of the oath? an oath is a oath and has too be honoured but is there a unspoken clause that supercedes it if the recepiant of the oath abuses that oath?

eg a knight/man say arthur dayne sees a rapist attacking a lady. in a darkend alleyway. the perps head will proberbly get accquainted with dawn farily quickly. everybody i hope agrees with me that justice was done. no matter how brutal. for arguements sake it waent a misunderstanding or a con. But a genuine rape.

if we turned the rapist into arys and dayne didnt know. did he still do the right deed? from the oaths point of view no, but from a higher purpose view yes he did he protected a innocent from harm. "True" oathes imo are there as a spoken/written way to represent higher ideals. they are not to be broken unless the oath leads to more suffering. and even then it should be only broken as a last resort.

for those like dayne and the white bull. and ned who are decent blokes being caught in a double bind of im damned if i do and damned if i dont must of been ripped up inside. jamie as he is not as good as those men has an advantage of being more practical in his morality.

[Antonius Pius]

That seems like a pretty obtuse reading, to me. If Hightower wasn't concerned that Jaime was in fact judging the King, then why, pray tell, would he feel the need to point that out?

Jaime Lannister may certainly be revolted by what Aerys does. Jaime the Kingsguard might also be, but he would have to keep it to himself. It's simply not the place of the Kingsguard to correct their king's behaviour. The KG serve, they do not rule or intervene. They protect the king and the royal family, and that's it. If Rhaegar had called a great council and been acclaimed king while Aerys was forced to abdicate, I'm sure Hightower and Dayne would also be pleased. But Jaime took affirmitave action, which is the exact opposite of the severe, sacred oaths he swore. That is his shame. His sworn brothers kept their honour by keeping true to their oaths. These oaths are very strict, and very exclusive. The entire plan is that their oath and it's requirements become the sole reason for the KG's existence.

"True" oathes imo are there as a spoken/written way to represent higher ideals. they are not to be broken unless the oath leads to more suffering. and even then it should be only broken as a last resort.

That's just it, in Westeros that doesn't fly. Not for a KG, and probably not for a man of the Night's Watch either. These oaths are absolute and negate the effects of personal morality. The oath becomes the norm.

for those like dayne and the white bull. and ned who are decent blokes being caught in a double bind of im damned if i do and damned if i dont must of been ripped up inside. jamie as he is not as good as those men has an advantage of being more practical in his morality.

You are correct about the double bind. Jaime though: IMO it's more like he had no morality, until he was forced to take another approach.

Harvest Moon:

But again....the reasons WHY do not really matter. Once again....we stick up for the more likeable characters.

Fact still stand. Ned broke his oath against his king. No matter what his intentions were.

There is a slight difference. Ned made a promise to a dying sister. He was not beholden to it by any means, escept his own conscience and his take on right and wrong. Jaime swore a sacred oath (twice!) to reduce his life to service of his king, and in both cases intended to violate it from the start. He never cared for morality, he only saw his personal desires.

And I think Ned did want to tell Jon. His last thoughts in his cell were of Jon and wishing he could talk with him.

Agreed.

[LaDy KyP]

The difference between Ned and Jaime is that Ned usually cares about other people and about being a honorable man and that Jaime very often choses the easy way out, makes many excuses for himself and acts very often like a petulant teenager. The reason why Ned breaks an oath and why Jaime breaks an oath are fundamentally different, because of their characters.

I agree that Jaime acted very much like the teenager, at least until he was captured or moreover, when he lost his sword hand. Until that point in his life I think he did things for the only person he really cared for, Cersei. Everything else was just, in his mind, things that needed to be done to protect his sister/lover, and himself from the world.

When did Ned break an oath. I haven't read this entire thread yet, sorry if someone's already mentioned.

[Trem]

About Hightower and Dayne and Darry etc.: as far as we know, the other KG of Aerys' day were honourable men in all possible ways. None of them slept with his sister, or the queen. None of them ever killed anybody that did not deserve killing. Jaime was never honourable, he was an arrogant lordling who loved fighting and glory. There really isn't anything more to Jaime, until he kills his king. Then he is frowned upon and gets a large chip on his shoulder.

Im sorry but no. The ONLY honorable thing for a true knight to have done was to kill Aerys no matter what color your cloak is. When you become a knight you swear an oath to protect the innocent, that is and should always be a true knights first reason for being. You don't get honors and titles just because someone taped you on the shoulder with a sword and called you Ser, you are meant to serve and protect. Sleeping with your sister and murder are very minor compared to the crime of serving and protecting a mad man like Aerys, Jaime was the only one bothered by the things he was doing and as flawed as he is that makes him the best of Aerys king guard. A true knight is the one who says "we are sworn to protect her too" when the king is raping his sister/wife, not the one who answers "but not from him". You can't have honor when you serve, protect and condone the actions of a mad man like Aerys, Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, Barristan Selmy, and all the other Kings Guard who served under Aerys have as much honor as Gregor Clegane.

[HarvestMoon]

When did Ned break an oath. I haven't read this entire thread yet, sorry if someone's already mentioned.

We are refering to Ned breaking his Oath to King Robert by harbouring the Targaryn hier to the throne (Jon) at Winterfell.

Ned could not bear to refuse his dying sister... Ned wasn't necessarily harbouring the heir to the Iron Throne, he was protecting his nephew.

A.P..... you cant do one with out the other. Jamie told Catelyn in his cell in ACOK "they make you swear and swear... no mater what you do your breaking one vow or another."

Some mentioned before about being damned if you do or if you dont.

[Artanaro]

If Ned helps Lyanna's child to safety, that does not necessarily break his oath of fealty to Robert. It's a grey area, but in truth he may also not have sworn an oath yet either when the events took place. Robert says that Ned should have taken the throne, but Ned retorts that Robert had a better claim. It seems that the decision about kingship wasn't answered until after Kings' Landing fell and maybe even for some time. That may have been enough time to swear fealty to Robert before he heads south, but it is not certain. If Ned isn't under oath when he enters the tower of joy, proceeds to find Lyanna's child, and sends him on his way to the Free Cities, then he is in the clear . If you don't agree with that interpretation of events and Lyanna's child identity is kept safe, that can be construed as keeping faith, since he won't be a threat to Robert or his heirs.

Artanaro

Actually, something else clicked. No matter what, Jon is not a Targaryen before the law :-). He's a bastard, remember. So, in terms of all matters he is Lyanna's child and no one else's. Within that context harboring him at Winterfell is not treason, since he is not a Targaryen, he is a Snow or Sand.

[HarvestMoon]

Actually, something else clicked. No matter what, Jon is not a Targaryen before the law :-). He's a bastard, remember. So, in terms of all matters he is Lyanna's child and no one else's. Within that context harboring him at Winterfell is not treason, since he is not a Targaryen, he is a Snow or Sand.

Ok. That point there sold me on it. Everything else aside. Jon isnt the hier untill he is legitimized by a King.

Which Rob did, but not till after Robert was dead.

Good dual Artanaro

You blade is Valyrian steel......."Sharp".......

[Asster]

after reading the replies in this topic I got to say that Jaime is defintly the most well written character in the series.

[Daemrion]

Hello Daemrion, nice to cross swords with you again on this issue!

From ACOK, When Lord Rickard is burning:

"I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armour and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."

"Aerys..." Catelyn could taste bile at the back of her throat. The story was so hideous she suspected it had to be true. "Aerys was mad, the whole realm knew it, but if you would have me believe you slew him to avenge Brandon Stark..."

"I made no such claim. The Starks were nothing to me..."

I think it's clear he didn't give a damn.

Hi AP, nice to be crossing swords again.

The 'going away' I got from that and also when he talked to Tommen in AFFC after Tywin's rotting body.

I also agree with what Other-in-law said, if Hightower had to pull him away to remind him, then he must have been agitated about it at the very least.

Also refer you to AFFC in the scene when he talks about Aerys and Rhaella the night after Lord Chelsted died.

About Hightower and Dayne and Darry etc.: as far as we know, the other KG of Aerys' day were honourable men in all possible ways. None of them slept with his sister, or the queen. None of them ever killed anybody that did not deserve killing. Jaime was never honourable, he was an arrogant lordling who loved fighting and glory. There really isn't anything more to Jaime, until he kills his king. Then he is frowned upon and gets a large chip on his shoulder.

The KG are in a bit of a quandary when the king turns out to be a madman like Aerys, there is no doubt about that. Their oaths require them to serve the king and the royal family in all kinds of ways. But they cannot go against them. They have forsworn everything out of their former lives to devote themselves entirely to the king. If a king is mad, the entire realm suffers, we have seen this in real history too. Royalty creates a certain aura around it top legitamise it's authority, but that becomes a negative effect if the king is unbalanced. The only semi-graceful way out is if the mad king is replaced by his heir, with the consent and agreement of as many lords as possible (IMO, of course). Rhaegar realised he had waited too long with a response, and he didn't get a chance to set things aright when he rode out for the Trident.

They are no true knights to not protect the innocent. I concur with the honourable Trem. (if we look at it from a modern POV.

The KG are in a no-win situation, but Jaime went one-worse and did the one thing ALL his oaths required him to prevent any others by any means to accomplish.

His father was in no conceivable danger. No more than anyone else in King's Landing at the time, to be sure. He was surrounded by his own men. Jaime went to kill Aerys when he knew his father's men were already assaulting the Red Keep, and it's fall was known to be imminent. And that Jaime remained a Lannister after he swore the oath proves that he didn't take the oath seriously. He gave up all his claims to his family, and supposedly devoted himself to the king.

Genocidal suicide bomb called Lord Rossart, Garigus etc... and the whole wildfire plan? I think it is easy to see that everyone in Kings Landing was in imminent danger from Aerys crackpot 'let him be King over charred bones and ashes'.

IMO Jaime feels entitled to the same kind of glory that surrounds Arthur Dayne, but he is frustrated that he doesn't get it, while at the same time he doesn't realise his actions are so depraved that he does not warrant glory. You know, if the oaths he takes conflict, there is a simple solution: do not swear oaths that conflict with oaths you have already sworn. Jaime doesn't, he takes the coward's way out, saying there are too many oaths. He doesn't care about the oaths, he wants the glory and he wants to emulate Dayne as a warrior. That's all he thinks of. Even now he still thinks he would have liked to kill Robert himself. What does that tell you? It tell's me that he's an arrogant airhead, used to getting his way. He has been forced to reconsider some things because he can no longer go on as he had, but that is the only reason. So IMO he still has some ways to go before redemption is on the table.

So he should not have been a Kingsguard, because he would have sworn his knightly oath first. Which would include protecting the weak and the innocent. Besides, I doubt that he would have known that the oaths would come to conflict in such a way that he would have had to make a choice about being a true knight or a Kingsguard.

Plus, the Cat oath was wrung from him at swordpoint, yet he still thinks about it as a real oath in AFFC.

I agree that he has a ways to go, at the very least he has started or been pointed to the road by our brilliant Brienne.

That's just it, in Westeros that doesn't fly. Not for a KG, and probably not for a man of the Night's Watch either. These oaths are absolute and negate the effects of personal morality. The oath becomes the norm.

But do these oaths have reciprocality?

What happens if the Lord Commander decides to take part in a War between the Seven Kingdoms. Would it be right to fight because he's the commander, or is it right to refuse to and possibly have to remove him by whatever means necessary?

KG oaths are absolute over knightly oaths? Perhaps, at the very least until the time of Joffrey.

Actually, something else clicked. No matter what, Jon is not a Targaryen before the law :-). He's a bastard, remember. So, in terms of all matters he is Lyanna's child and no one else's. Within that context harboring him at Winterfell is not treason, since he is not a Targaryen, he is a Snow or Sand.

Not if there was a secret marriage, and we all know that previous Targs had more than one wife simultaneously.

[HarvestMoon]

Hightower basically told him, 'Aerys can do anything he wants no matter how horrible it is'. So in effect he (jamie) is better than Dayne, Hightower and all those esteemed Kingsguard who let Aerys get away with committing atrocities without doing anything about it.

Someone made a comment before about the King having to keep his vows as well......cant find it

Only one person I know of that ever thought about the oaths sworn to them as being a two way street.

Catelyn to Brienne

"I vow... to as no service of you that might bring you into dishonor." ACOK pp563

Some honorable Knights swore oaths to Aerys, and he spat on everyone on them with the positions he put his KG in.

Jamie character can be vile at best. But I still dont blame him for turing on a King like Aerys.