Why Do You Hate Jamie?

[Daemrion]

Diva,

Does that mean Cat breached guest/host right when she killed innocent Aegon (who was handicapped and could not even form any sort of criminal intent)?

It's probably all about who makes the first "action" and then things can get waived.

I mean, if your host does try to kill you and you fight back and end up winning, it shouldn't mean that you are accursed...

[Diva]

Diva,

Does that mean Cat breached guest/host right when she killed innocent Aegon (who was handicapped and could not even form any sort of criminal intent)?

It's probably all about who makes the first "action" and then things can get waived.

I mean, if your host does try to kill you and you fight back and end up winning, it shouldn't mean that you are accursed...

well killing poor Jinglebells was definitely a crap thing to do. I think she is well and truly cured already though, don't you think? And any other deaths of Freys that day was in self defence so it doesn't count.

But please tell me how Bran was trying to kill Jaime?

[Daemrion]

well killing poor Jinglebells was definitely a crap thing to do. I think she is well and truly cured already though, don't you think? And any other deaths of Freys that day was in self defence so it doesn't count.

But please tell me how Bran was trying to kill Jaime?

I'd argue that not all the Freys were in on it voluntarily. But anyway, I think UnCat should burn in Seven Hells.

Bran's knowledge would have killed Jaime. All it took would be a loose tongue and bam!.

And the God-cursing probably doesn't go the other way (that is guest-->host), because within a host's house, the host has the power/the advantage over the guest.

[cybroleach]

Bran's knowledge would have killed Jaime. All it took would be a loose tongue and bam!.

Guessing the future out of infinate possibilities doesn't constitute intended harm. It's not like they talked about it and Bran told him i'm running off to tell dad and the king.

You can't just kill your host and say well i think he's going to eventually plan to break guestright and call that self defense. You should know that with all your legal knowledge.

And the God-cursing probably doesn't go the other way (that is guest-->host), because within a host's house, the host has the power/the advantage over the guest.

That's not the way Roose Bolton explained it to Jaime at Harrenhal when Jaime tried to threaten him.

[Stratonice]

I don't really think all this talk of redemption is really accurate in the case of Jaime. Or at least seriously over done.

When we get his POV we discover that he actually had good reasons for some of the things he did (like killing Aerys). That doesn't mean he has suddenly decided to change his life and become a better person but that we realise that he never was quite as bad a person as we previously believed.

Losing his hand forces Jaime to adapt to his new circumstances in life. Does beginning to think for himself (rather than letting Cersei do his thinking for him) mean he's actively trying to become a better person and make amends for what he's done? No, it doesn't necessarily have to mean any such thing. We see that he wants to try to improve his reputation but so far we haven't really seen him DO anything to deserve that.

He's done some pretty horrible things in his life. He realises that and doesn't make excuses for them but accepts responsibility for them. I certainly don't hate him but I can't really like him as a person either. But he's a fascinating POV and it'll be very interesting to see him continue to struggle with what he's become and eventually see where he'll end up.

[A wilding]

That's not the way Roose Bolton explained it to Jaime at Harrenhal when Jaime tried to threaten him.

Though Roose only tells Jaime something along the lines of it being scarcely chivalrous to threaten your host. He does not say "if you attack me you will be considered accursed by gods and men as a breaker of host-right". Though I suppose a comment like that might not have much effect on a kingslayer anyway ...

[nestor_bgd]

I don’t really see him redeemed at all. He is a Lanister and as I once heard: “Only dead Lanister is a good Lanister" :mad: . I don’t like him and never will.

[Guest Other-in-law]

I think it's pretty obvious that the betrayers at Craster's Keep are considered to be cursed, so Guest Right cuts both ways.

[The Winged Shadow]

I'd argue that not all the Freys were in on it voluntarily. But anyway, I think UnCat should burn in Seven Hells.

ALL freys in the twins are accursed and should be punished. Whether or not they were in it voluntarily is irrelevant because its the deeds that count not thought. And Every single frey in the twins are to be blamed (excluding children). Any one of them (who knew of it before hand) couldve prevented it by a single whisper in the right ear.

But did they? NO, therefore they are as much to be blamed as the guy who killd robb or some other.

For a long time the Freys been a by-stander in war and have mostly, if not always, reaped the good rewards. it is time they reap the bad.

Is UnCat randomly killing freys? NO. She is killing the freys that were in the twins during red wedding and as i said above every single one of them who knew of it before hand is to be blamed. She (more accurately, the singer and Lem) even gave him a little trial, see ASOS pg 579.

If UnCat is to go to seven hells for getting some revenge (or arguably, justice) so should ALL the freys that were present in the Twins during red wedding and knew of it before hand.

ASOS2 pg 578 "Not murder." His voice was shrill. "It was vengeance, we had a right to our vengeance. It was WAR"

[Daemrion]

ALL freys in the twins are accursed and should be punished. Whether or not they were in it voluntarily is irrelevant because its the deeds that count not thought. And Every single frey in the twins are to be blamed (excluding children). Any one of them (who knew of it before hand) couldve prevented it by a single whisper in the right ear.

But did they? NO, therefore they are as much to be blamed as the guy who killd robb or some other.

Bye bye Roslin and unborn Tully child then (because she knew). Is that seriously what you are advocating?

And plus we never ever know exactly which Frey knew when. Some of them could have just been defending their family members when they were attacked. I mean you hear a commotion and see Robb's men fighting against your family, trying to murder them. What do you do. Defend your family, call in the men to subdue everyone.

Is UnCat randomly killing freys? NO. She is killing the freys that were in the twins during red wedding and as i said above every single one of them who knew of it before hand is to be blamed. She (more accurately, the singer and Lem) even gave him a little trial, see ASOS pg 579.

So that means that Emmon should not die, because he was at Casterly Rock with Genna and not at the Twins and we don't know that he knew either.

If UnCat is to go to seven hells for getting some revenge (or arguably, justice) so should ALL the freys that were present in the Twins during red wedding and knew of it before hand.

ASOS2 pg 578 "Not murder." His voice was shrill. "It was vengeance, we had a right to our vengeance. It was WAR"

Please don't even claim what the BwB are doing as war. Because they aren't even a legitimately recognised warring party with any sort of legal rights at all. They are the legal equivalent to Al-Qaeda fighters in Afghanistan who are in Guantanamo Bay - with no legal rights, they aren't lawful combatants. They aren't enemy combatants, they are murderers and terrorists.

And don't even get me started on the farcity of the BwB trial process.

[Errant Bard]

They aren't enemy combatants, they are murderers and terrorists.

Speaking about that, during a recent reread I found this quote:

"I want them all dead, Brienne. Theon Greyjoy first, then Jaime Lannister and Cersei and the Imp, every one, every one. But my girls . . . my girls will . . ."

Shortly after, GRRM gives her power while removing all she wanted to protect. Damn. Way to craft a relentless avenger.

Because they aren't even a legitimately recognised warring party with any sort of legal rights at all.

But they are, Cat is the head of both house Tully and House Stark, while her brother and uncle are missing. Before Cat they were just outlaws, after they are resistant soldiers of the Northern Kingdom... Robb didn't sign a surrender treaty or anything, and war has not ended, since there are still willing combattants. Guerrilla is an acceptable tactic considering the odds.

[Cynon]

I don't hate him, he is a interesting character and entertaining.

However, I don't think he is redeemed, or has changed much. He has opened his eyes a little, and started to care about what his legacy as a knight will be. Before his imprisonment he was basically the same shallow, selfish, carefree person he was at 16, but it seems like the time in the dungeon was spent reflecting on how he ended up here.

He wanted to be like Arthur, but ended up as the kingslayer with piss for honor.

He was never cruel, but I still don't think he care much about throwing Bran out the window. I think he regret more being blind to Cerseis nature, and that people never understood his motivations for his actions.

He is independent and has determined to be responsible and do his job as Commander of the white guards, for the sake of the realm. But he will do what must be done, even if it means killing children.

[Daemrion]

Speaking about that, during a recent reread I found this quote:

"I want them all dead, Brienne. Theon Greyjoy first, then Jaime Lannister and Cersei and the Imp, every one, every one. But my girls . . . my girls will . . ."

Shortly after, GRRM gives her power while removing all she wanted to protect. Damn. Way to craft a relentless avenger.

Good writing, still doesn't give her the right

But they are, Cat is the head of both house Tully and House Stark, while her brother and uncle are missing. Before Cat they were just outlaws, after they are resistant soldiers of the Northern Kingdom... Robb didn't sign a surrender treaty or anything, and war has not ended, since there are still willing combattants. Guerrilla is an acceptable tactic considering the odds.

Dead bodies don't have claims. Corpses don't have claims. zombies do not have legal rights. She's not the head of house Tully or house Stark. Her brother isn't missing, he's on his way to CR. She's not heir to house Stark, Jon is by Robb's own decree. And in any case, do we want to debate the legality of Robb's rebellion in the first place.

And they aren't soldiers of the northern kingdom. They were never in Robb's army. If I remember properly they killed some Northmen in ASOS. So they must be treasonous to Robb as well at the very least if they were actually ever part of Robb's army.

Guerrilla is an acceptable tactic, but that still does not affect the legality of the combatants.

They aren't resistant soldiers of the northern kingdom, plain and simple where did they ever swear fealty to King Robb or even his cause to restore the northern kingdom. Frankly, I don't see them marching north to rally the Northern Forces or doing anything like that. I don't see an Alliance to Restore the Northern Kingdom or anything like that.

They are nothing better than a glorified lynch mob.

[Errant Bard]

Good writing, still doesn't give her the right

I didn't say it did, it just struck me how Cat was already brimming with hate before being zombified, and how Brienne knew perfectly well she wanted to kill Jaime, if there had not been hope for Sansa and Arya.

zombies do not have legal rights.

Why not?

I'm not asking about what you think but about what in the books shows a zombie has his rights invalidated. So far, I'd say the books indeed show that rights carry on, with the way live men react to noble zombies.

She's not the head of house Tully or house Stark. Her brother isn't missing, he's on his way to CR. She's not heir to house Stark, Jon is by Robb's own decree.

One prisoner, and one bastard who's not accepted the title. They are missing, for all practical purpose.

we want to debate the legality of Robb's rebellion in the first place.

So we agree, it's a matter of point of view, and you just chose to view it from the Lannister's PoV.

Unless you somehow argue about the value of the word "legality" when it comes to rebellions. In that case, for example, the US are illegal, as they were created after a rebellion. are they? does it even make any sense to argue about it?

They are nothing better than a glorified lynch mob.

Yes, a lynch mob supported by the local people.

But seriously, what's the difference with a "regular" army, in what they do?

They don't kill without discimination, they have goals, targets, strategy and organisation. Ok, the trials were farces, but it's not like Nuremberg wasn't one, too, for example.

[Pinky Scumbag]

They don't kill without discimination, they have goals, targets, strategy and organisation. Ok, the trials were farces, but it's not like Nuremberg wasn't one, too, for example.

Godwin.

[Daemrion]

I didn't say it did, it just struck me how Cat was already brimming with hate before being zombified, and how Brienne knew perfectly well she wanted to kill Jaime, if there had not been hope for Sansa and Arya.

Besides the fact that he was Robb's prisoner not her's, no matter how much she wanted to kill him, it's irrelevant because she does not have the legal right to legally kill him. Not without Robb's say so.

I'm not asking about what you think but about what in the books shows a zombie has his rights invalidated. So far, I'd say the books indeed show that rights carry on, with the way live men react to noble zombies.

Beric gave up his castle.

Yes, a lynch mob supported by the local people.

But still an illegal lynch mob.

[The Winged Shadow]

When i wrote ALL freys, i meant the ones who knew about it before hand. but i see how it is mis written so my bad. sorry.

Bye bye Roslin and unborn Tully child then (because she knew). Is that seriously what you are advocating?

Roslin should definetly be punished. I dont know why u brought the unborn child though as i already said Childrens are excluded from this.

And plus we never ever know exactly which Frey knew when. Some of them could have just been defending their family members when they were attacked. I mean you hear a commotion and see Robb's men fighting against your family, trying to murder them. What do you do. Defend your family, call in the men to subdue everyone.

then they dont need to be punished. As i said above, i miswrote it when i said ALL freys. it is strictly for those who knew before hand. sorry again.

So that means that Emmon should not die, because he was at Casterly Rock with Genna and not at the Twins and we don't know that he knew either.

no idea who that is. lol. but as long as he didnt know before hand he SHOULD have been spared. But then again i never claimed her justice is perfect. . If he trully was innocent...well put it on her "vengeance" list.

Please don't even claim what the BwB are doing as war. Because they aren't even a legitimately recognised warring party with any sort of legal rights at all. They are the legal equivalent to Al-Qaeda fighters in Afghanistan who are in Guantanamo Bay - with no legal rights, they aren't lawful combatants. They aren't enemy combatants, they are murderers and terrorists.

I never said what she was doing is legal. And when i wrote justice in the bracket i meant it as in, from her PoV .

And don't even get me started on the farcity of the BwB trial process.

...this is really embarrasing.....cause i dont know what "farcity" means :| . can anyone tell me what it means?

And incase in means something along the line of "false-ness" all i have to say is this:

You speak as if the trial process for the crown is any better. and by that, i mean they are no less BS.

[Viperswhip]

Two things about Jaime

1) Bran

2) Attacking Ned Stark and his men that night.

About this second point; if he has showed up with 4 of his men, and they duked it out, I might be okay with it, but as it happened, it did not sit well with me at all.

I was more dissapointed with Robert not seeming to mind that his best friend had been attacked, and Ned not doing some serious thinking afterwards. If Jaime was willing to attack him so brazenly, what on earth made him think he would be safe after that? Owning the Gold Cloaks? dumb.

Other than that, I thought him killing Aerys was one of his finest moments as soon as we learned what an ass Aerys was. Adding the later story about Aerys and Rossart wanting to burn down King's Landing was not necessary to legitimize his actions to me.

It's tough because in AFFC when we see him with the Lannister troops and in the camps, he seems like a pretty good guy. I think with a better king than Aerys with which to start his career, Jaime would have been alright.

So, I don't think he can be redeemed because you can't really forgive someone for throwing a seven year old out a window.

[cybroleach]

Beric gave up his castle.

I don't get this at all, throughtout the books he has been Lord Beric, his house didn't march with Renly because he was out, not meet with Stannis for the same reason threw ACOK, nor have we seen anything attaining him of his land even from the Lannister's prespectives. And is still listed as Lord of Blackhaven well into ASOS in the Appx.

[A wilding]

...this is really embarrasing.....cause i dont know what "farcity" means :| . can anyone tell me what it means?

And incase in means something along the line of "false-ness" all i have to say is this:

You speak as if the trial process for the crown is any better. and by that, i mean they are no less BS.

I think he means it is a farce, so I agree with your comment.

And also the process is no worse with UnCat's BwB than it was with UnBeric's BwB. Look at the trials UnBeric held for Sandor and the pre-Saltpans massacre Bloody Mummers that he captured.