Why Do You Hate Jamie?

[The Blueseer]

I like Jaime, but he doesnt feel bad about it, he tries harder to make up for catelyn's oath then he does making up for bran.

I see it as making up for Catelyn's oath includes making up for Bran, as he was her son.

Anyway , I'm glad he is still alive because he is no matter the bads and goods one of the more complex, interesting characters.

[Daemrion]

When i wrote ALL freys, i meant the ones who knew about it before hand. but i see how it is mis written so my bad. sorry.

Roslin should definetly be punished. I dont know why u brought the unborn child though as i already said Childrens are excluded from this.

Because Roslin is pregnant with the child. And she knew. It's pretty hard to separate the unborn child from the mother.

I never said what she was doing is legal. And when i wrote justice in the bracket i meant it as in, from her PoV .

Yes, but then again everything one does could be seen as justice from one's own view. It's not one's view which is important in deciding legality.

Maybe except in an absolute despotism.

...this is really embarrasing.....cause i dont know what "farcity" means :| . can anyone tell me what it means?

Do you know what a 'farce' is?

Look, basically what I was trying to say was that the BwB trial under UnCat misses out on things like due process, or even procedural equality.

The Crown is no better under Cersei and Tywin with regards to procedural fairness. That I admit, but that still doesn't make anything the BwB does better. Look even under Beric I think they were skirting very close to procedural unfairness. Look Lysa Arryn did commit grave breaches of procedural fairness with regards to Tyrion's farce trial.

It's probably a succession of bad Kings.

Cybro,

He says somewhere in an Arya POV that he will never see his castle again, that the girl he was betrothed to would marry someone else etc...

[The Winged Shadow]

Because Roslin is pregnant with the child. And she knew. It's pretty hard to separate the unborn child from the mother.

Punish her after the child is born. But the child should not be harmed.

Yes, but then again everything one does could be seen as justice from one's own view. It's not one's view which is important in deciding legality.

I guess you are right. Though i still believe what UnCat is doing is not wholly revenge nor wholly justice, but something in between.

Talking about legality, is there any law against killing guests after giving them guest rights?

If yes, then the crown should punish them yet we KNOW they wont, so there goes legality out the window.

If no, then is it any less a crime even though it is just a custom? Should they not be punished for their treachery against their guests? (even if they are the enemy, but the guest right was given). How should they be punished? and more importantly Who? (if at all).

Do you know what a 'farce' is?

Yes .

Look, basically what I was trying to say was that the BwB trial under UnCat misses out on things like due process, or even procedural equality.

The Crown is no better under Cersei and Tywin with regards to procedural fairness. That I admit, but that still doesn't make anything the BwB does better. Look even under Beric I think they were skirting very close to procedural unfairness. Look Lysa Arryn did commit grave breaches of procedural fairness with regards to Tyrion's farce trial.

Yep i agree. I never claimed what UnCat was doing was legal, just that what she was doing isnt very far from what the crown does, they are both a farce though one is deemed legal while the other isnt. (and UnCat certainly has better reason than the Crown).

[BerryHarryBear]

ALL freys in the twins are accursed and should be punished. Whether or not they were in it voluntarily is irrelevant because its the deeds that count not thought. And Every single frey in the twins are to be blamed (excluding children).

I think Roslin and her unborn child BOTH would fall under this exception. She was basically a child bride of 15 or 16 and completely under her fathers control. It is also quite clear that she felt bad about what was going to happen but was completely powerless to do anything.

[Errant Bard]

was completely powerless to do anything.

What about, when in the main hall, or with Edmure, or within shouting distance of any Stark Bannerman, just shout "they are going to kill you" or something?

Powerless? I don't think so. She went with the plan, kept her mouth shut, bedded Edmure and then put her hand on her ears while saying "lalala I can't hear it". In the end, she reaped maximum profit from this, and all this by keeping her mouth shut.

[unduli]

Roslin couldn't have changed anything - she could've delayed it, but not changed it.

If you're gonna punish every non-child Frey, though, then she would have to be punished as well just for knowing.

[The Winged Shadow]

If you're gonna punish every non-child Frey, though, then she would have to be punished as well just for knowing.

Exactly. And hopefully she will be.

[Daemrion]

Anyway, to bring it all back to the actual real topic of Jaime

Robert did not like Jaime at all, it's just that he hated the Targaryens more.

[Dayne's Sword]

just done a quick scan of some of the posts.

It occurs to me that a lot of people are forgeting one very important factor in the relative morality inherrant in this thread

EMOTION.

Did cat think of guest right with that knife at that lads throat? And would she be cursed if she killled him? course not she was trying to save robb. she was pushed into the corner and fought back. when she cut his throat it was pride. not cold logic that killing is wrong that guided her hand to the deed. Secondly jamies attempted murder of Bran is motivated by selfpreservation. he didnt think, hes a rash bloke. im rash from time to time most of us are. other times im a cold hearted logical bast**d.

I dont condone jaimes action in AGOT. in fact until the end of book four although i liked his concept i hated him. i hate lannisters so much i on purpose lost the board game just to do them in. his redemption if it happens, imo comes in three ways some all or none of which may happen. firstly is does he feel regret for past deeds that are shamful and try to attone for them and forgive himself? i have done and i expect all of you have acted a muppet and wish we could go back and change the past. granted i havent defenestrated a kid but ive hurt people emotionally when i didnt want to. i feel bad there and am trying to forgive myself. secondly do his peers and the injured party accept the apology and the change in character? regardless if J says sorry or justs acts differntly so people can see the change. and the third path to redemption is do we the readers forgive him? and that question hinges on what geroge writes and how it fits in our own moral compass. so some of us are gonna stay burn in hell boy and others are gonna go aaggh how cute and fluffy and some stay in the middle.

Personnaly i hope J does get redemeed. hopefully Boromir/Samson style.

[lord yronwood]

How do you think about Jaimes part in the red wedding. He did say "next time you see Robb Stark, send him my regards". Or something like that to Roose Bolton.

[BrainFireBob]

Which meant nothing, because Jaime didn't know about the Red Wedding. Bolton chose to twist Jaime's words, so Catelyn believes he knew.

[A wilding]

Jaime did know that Bolton was going to turn on Robb though, just not the mechanics and depth of the betrayal.

[BrainFireBob]

Jaime suspected Bolton as a turncoat. Meaning he'd switch sides in the WAR. Totally different than Jaime having any role in the Red Wedding. The logic beggars belief.

[Antonius Pius]

Jaime suspected Bolton as a turncoat. Meaning he'd switch sides in the WAR. Totally different than Jaime having any role in the Red Wedding. The logic beggars belief.

Now now, it doesn't beggar belief, imo. Turning on your liege lord is the worst crime but one in the feudal hierarchy. Robb told the Greatjon, in front of a large gathering of Northern lords, that he would root him out of his keep and hang him for an oathbreaker if he decided to retract his support before the war started. Roose turning his cloak and taking the other side would surely have earned him a few hacks across the neck with a blunt pole-axe. Jaime knew Bolton was about to commit a severe crime against his liege-lord. And as so many times with Jaime, he does not care either way.

[A wilding]

Jaime suspected Bolton as a turncoat.

Jaime knew Bolton was a turncloak, because Bolton had told him so at their dinner.

Personally I think that dinner one of the best scenes in ASOIAF. Just about everything Bolton says has two levels of meaning. He says that Robb has annoyed the Freys by breaking his Frey marriage contract; tells of his own alliance with the Freys; states that the chances of Robb winning are now vanishingly small, but that he is too young to see sense and bend the knee, unlike, it is implied, Roose himself; hints that he intends to claim the North for himself in the name of Arya Stark; and even explains that he is Robb's bannerman in the same way that Vargo Hoat is his, while simultaneously making it clear that that he and Vargo are only temporary allies of convenience with no true bond between them.

Then he says that his standing orders as Robb's bannerman are to send Jaime back to Riverrun, while as an alternative the rich prize of the Karstark lands has been offered for Jaime's head, all as a preliminary to negotiating that he will instead send Jaime on to Kings Landing in exchange for "Lannister friendship" and for not being blamed for Jaime's maiming.

After all that, Jaime had to realise (and clearly did) that Bolton was planning to betray Robb in some seriously terminal way, even if he did not have the specifics.

ETA: And given all that, Jaime's parting comment that he will give Bolton's regards to Tywin so long as Bolton gives Jaime's to Robb... Well Jaime probably just intended it as a flippant comment, but it could certainly be regarded as a warning that he must go through with his planned betrayal of Robb if he wants that "Lannister friendship".

[Trem]

Now now, it doesn't beggar belief, imo. Turning on your liege lord is the worst crime but one in the feudal hierarchy. Robb told the Greatjon, in front of a large gathering of Northern lords, that he would root him out of his keep and hang him for an oathbreaker if he decided to retract his support before the war started. Roose turning his cloak and taking the other side would surely have earned him a few hacks across the neck with a blunt pole-axe. Jaime knew Bolton was about to commit a severe crime against his liege-lord. And as so many times with Jaime, he does not care either way.

Every side in a war always thinks of themselves as the right side, theres no reason why Jaime or anyone should care that someone is switching to their side. Robb certainly didn't seem to think ill of the Westerlings for supposeddly being Lannister turncoats and nobody holds it against him.

[Antonius Pius]

Every side in a war always thinks of themselves as the right side, theres no reason why Jaime or anyone should care that someone is switching to their side. Robb certainly didn't seem to think ill of the Westerlings for supposeddly being Lannister turncoats and nobody holds it against him.

There is a difference. Robb had taken the Crag, the people in it were presumably given a choice to assume honourable captivity or to swear allegiance to Robb. Bolton knowingly and willingly conspired to assassinate his liege-lord, and conferred with Jaime about the potential benefits of a switch. The Westerlings were at Robb's mercy, and Robb married their daughter, which further coulds the issue. Lord Gawen, who was not at the Crag, was clearly upset about the whole business.

[Daemrion]

Perhaps Jaime knew that Bolton was definitely betraying Robb in some way.

What he could not know was the way that Bolton would do it via the Red Wedding.

[The Red Viper Of Dorne]

Jaime could not have known about the Red Wedding. He probably knew what Lord Tywin would have tried to divide the young wolf's companions with promises of lands and riches. The Boltons's had always been the only rivals to the Stark's control of the north and Tywin would have known how to expoilt the weaknesses in Frey's character and Bolton's ambition.

In regards to the overall topic I'd have to say that personally Jaime is my favourite character because he's a real character. He was put in situations where he had to make hard choices. Cersei found she could get what she wanted out of him and because of this he took the white instead of becoming the Lord of the Rock. He became the Kingslayer because (a) Aerys deserved it, ( he was planning to destroy the city, © the whole torturing and killing of the Starks.

Pushing Bran? He felt that he had fallen as far as he could. That he would never be remembered for anything but regicide so why bother trying to be anything but what people expected. Ok thats hardly an excuse for trying to kill an 8 year old boy but meh he's a badass. Jamie's redemption has a lot to do with the wench getting inside his head and showing him what honour was. He remembered his dreams of being Arthur Dayne and remembered why he wanted to be a knight.

Jaime is a legend. Simple.

First Post: Hi All

[Antonius Pius]

Doubtless some of this has already been covered, but I'll give it a go nonetheless:

Jaime could not have known about the Red Wedding. He probably knew what Lord Tywin would have tried to divide the young wolf's companions with promises of lands and riches. The Boltons's had always been the only rivals to the Stark's control of the north and Tywin would have known how to expoilt the weaknesses in Frey's character and Bolton's ambition."

Tywin would surely have tried to exploit any weakness of the North, but Bolton wasn't more predisposed to become a turncloak because of his name. He's simply a coldhearted bastard who saw a way to advance himself, and took it.

As regards Jaime: he knew Bolton was selling Robb out, short and simple. He encouraged Bolton to, by promising to sing his father a song that would clear Bolton of responsibility to Jaime's maiming.

He became the Kingslayer because (a) Aerys deserved it, ( he was planning to destroy the city, © the whole torturing and killing of the Starks.

He acknowledged to Catelyn that he didn't give a damn about the Starks. He took the white because of dreams of glory, but mostly for Cersei, as he admits to himself. When he took the White, he found out that he had been named by Aerys to spite Tywin. He was callous enough not to give a damn about anyone that was killed by Aerys in his mad state. The only time he thought about objecting was when Aerys was raping Rhaella. I think he killed Aerys out of spite, as payback for 'tricking' him into the KG. I think he didn't give a fig about King's Landing, and even if he did, I think there would have been other ways to prevent it from burning. He just didn't care about it, all that mattered was killing Aerys, which was why he was wearing his golden armour, as he notes to himself.

Jamie's redemption has a lot to do with the wench getting inside his head and showing him what honour was. He remembered his dreams of being Arthur Dayne and remembered why he wanted to be a knight.

So he can get started on the path to redemption. But he still has to start, imo. Having so much shit for honour that the pail is filled to the brim doesn't quite sit well with me as defence for flinging Bran from the window, however... That's a coward's way out.

Jaime is a legend. Simple.

So is Richard III.

First Post: Hi All

Welcome!