Let's Find The Swords

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Khal Shaggydog said:

I'll take the notes, but Im going to cling onto some possibility because I like the idea so much (I swear im not just pushing this for alternate facts). Do we know when GRRM was saying that and how close that hews to the current book timeline? Also, I always read SSM's as a balance between actual "author based fact" and "unreliable narrator/as far as we are told" facts...But yea, its still a distant speculation at this point. I also see the timeline GRRM gives (until Tommen is old enough) to imply its sitting somewhere and probably neglected by the morons that are left there. Which gives an opening to the snake in the grass LF to pilfer/possibly dummy up a replacement, etc. Yes - full on crackpot there.

Widows wail in KL then, in relation to finding the blades of the 12/13 heroes, can be there for sometime to take on. Im slightly on board with the Loras theory...jeweled blade that Tommen likes and Cersei wouldnt realize the significance of...and that also could potentially tie Loras into some kind of redemptive, butterfly like arc. That would raised the estimation of the Tyrells greatly, and give a little mirror to Jaime's post-KG redemption arc. Or it could be picked up by Jaime himself, or someone wild like Aurane who can seize onto the Valyrian blood link and his ability to quickly get north via his awesome ships.

I agree that Longclaw is just Longclaw, but that mostly rests on the fact that it seems a bit too presumptuous of anyone (ie: BR) to trust a generation or two with that deception. But...given the remotness of Bear Island, and when BR went up there, we're probably looking at Jeors father as the potential guy that took on that sword. So just one fireside lie to baby Jeor, and we've got a 300 year history. Its weak, but possible. Not sure what that achieves, unless the full story is also passed down at death, but there might be more to the story considering Jorah didnt sell it, and family honor didnt stop him from besmirching that...but perhaps some serious magic did stop him from making a move on the sword. I get the size comparison, but I do have a hard time putting too much stock in exact descriptions since they come from such wildly different times and sources. But I also dont like the overreliance on fake identities, so I'll keep LC as just LC, DS as just DS, and leave it at that.

Im also in agreement that there isnt VS in the iron throne. Too valuable, even to Aegon and sisters.

But..to the topic...I think the maesters are thick into this. Their proximity the the Hightowers, and Vigilance, is significant in my mind. Not just the name of the sword itself, but the repository of ancient knowledge, their actual relevance to the original Westerosi Targaryens, and their aloofness/magical insinuations/water access, makes me think they know more about the Long Night, the Others, and all that then say, the Tyrells. So I think they have an actual sword, and I think between them and the Maesters they know more than we do about Valyrian steel and how to work it, what its used for, etc. Marwyn is a fucking wild card - guy is rocking some VS bling. How precise do their smiths have to be to make a ring and a MASK out of this stuff? I mean, the rod and the ring he couldve picked up in Qohor or something, but no way he happened upon a random ArchMaester mask outside of Oldtown. So between their ability to work it and the intent to work it, they know its got a bigger purpose. I think they may be sitting on a blade or two as well, since a random Tyrion quote gives us a much much larger number in Westeros than we're dealing with. How did they get their hands on them? It would foremost require knowledge and access, (if we're assuming a Marwyn spearheaded conspiracy or plan), and no one more than a maester would have access or knowledge of a family's VS blades.

 

The quote is from Martin in April, 2008.  I was a fan of the Oh Please Let Loras Have It theory before I was given the quote.  It changed things for me and I adapted.   To the IT, this idea I was telling you about is not the swords are VS it is that the swords were flamed by Balerion to make the monstrosity that is the throne.   I still think there needs to be specific blood sacrifice (not blood on the swords), spells and obsidian to make VS. Tobho was still hanging around KL last I heard, so who knows? 

The maesters could very well be involved.   It is a maester who gives us our count of 227 VS items or is it blades in Westeros.   I'm going with blades for the sake of the conversation.  The number was reported in Inventories, a book written by a maester.  The Citadel doesn't have all those items as Inventories is just a report.   But why would they care?  That wouldn't include decorative or ceremonial items like a rod & mask...or links in chains for that matter.    I doubt the Citadel made the rod and mask.  I'm thinking these items were obtained from Valyria or Qohor and have been passed from Archmaester to Archmaester.  If Marwyn is the only maester to have had these items he is well-traveled, as far as Asshai.   I think there is something to the Hightowers and the Citadel and their VS pieces.  We are or will be set up if TWOW ever publishes, with no less than 3, maybe as many as 5 VS swords right there in the Reach.   Before I get carried away, my editor corrected me on some misinformation I gave you.   We've never actually seen the rod or mask.   These items are listed with Marwyn in AFFC appendix.  Sorry. I think the matter of the Citadel's VS links for the chains is simpler.  The links are made and can't actually be opened or fitted by anyone but a Qohori.   I supposed they could send away and have the links added, but wouldn't it be easier to just open the links on either side where the VS link belongs and add them that way?  

Marwyn as a conspirator with the Citadel?   He badmouthed his fellow maesters so much during the short conversation he had with Sam I'm doubtful.   But it could be a ruse couldn't it?   We will have to wait and see.   

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Hey guys I'm new around here and I must say it's an honour.

Great post OP, some wonderful ideas flying around.

In regards to Nightfall and Red Rain, does anyone find it strange that "The Blackest Pirate ever to Raise Sail" Euron Greyjoy seemingly makes no attempt to claim the highly sought after Valyrian blades for himself?

While I understand that taking the blades from the current owners would be a bad move politically as Euron is still in the process of stabilising his political rule amongst the Iron men, would Euron really have undermined his own rule by sending some catspaw to retrieve either Dark Sister or Red Rain? It's difficult to say with any certainty but in the wake of the kingsmoot, couldn't the Crows Eye have made an offer to an ambitious member of either House Drumm or Harlaw, something along the lines of "Bring me the blade and I'll give you one of the Shields, money etc. 

Valyrian Swords are near priceless artifacts which would go nicely with other items in Eurons collection. With all his plans of marrying Dany, gaining a dragon through his Valyrian horn and sitting the Iron Throne, one would assume that weilding a Valyrian Sword could be highly usefull symbolically for the new Iron King.

Take the history of Nightfall itself. Taken from a dead corsair by no less an Ironborn hero than the Red Kraken, Dalton Greyjoy. Nightfall is a physical embodiment of "paying the iron price", aswell as embodying House Greyjoys power and status.

Dalton was Lord of the Isles at the age of 15, returning from abroad to claim the dead lords Seastone Chair (similiar to Euron returning from exile to claim Balons chair) then openly defied the green party during the Dance of Dragons (perhaps similiar to Euron defying both the current regime in KL and planning to defy Dany). We know reaving songs are sung to this day recounting the raids of the Red Kraken, so why did Euron seem otherwise uninterested? This was his families sword after all, would it be to much trouble to orchestrate some "fall from a bridge" for Ser Harras?

 When the Red Kraken took the Seastone Chair, he commanded the building of ships, training of soldiers and such, his reasoning when ased?  "The storm is coming" - very similiar to Eurons boasts of "I am the storm".

Red Rain is anothert blade one would assume would catch Eurons Eye. Another physical embodiment of "paying the iron price" - the blade was taken from a knight  by Hilmar the Cunning, using nothing but "wits and a wooden cudgel". If we look at historical members of house Drumm, we see several nicknames which may hint at a connection to the "higher mysteries"- names such as "Raven-Feeder", "The Necro Mancer", "The Dread" and "Old Father"  (and make no mistake,  all this is total speculation at this point) . The Crows Eye seemingly has an interest in the dark arts, one has to wonder why he would allow Dunstan Drumm and his party to return to the Isles with such a valuable and potentially lore filled sword (if the Isles are indeed where they ended up) and risk the blade being stolen or even sold.

While we don't know how Nightfall passed to house Harlaw, the fact that it is now weilded by Ser Harras Harlaw raises an eyebrow. As someone who identifies as a knight, and has the blood of the green lands coursing through his veins, one could imagine the current Lord of Greyshield having several targets on his back. Surrounded by other Ironmen on the shields, what's really to stop someone like Nute the Barber from trying to steal the blade from this jumped up "sheep to the seven". This is something I'm sure Euron would have taken into account, and yet Euron not only allows Harlaw to keep Nightfall on Grey Shield, he also shows a certain disregard for the Shield Islands, seemingly positioning them as perhaps a diversion for potential Hightower or Redwyn naval forces, thus perhaps endangering the blade even more.

King Euron also has other Valyrian items in hs collection. Some of his toys I would like to turn my attention to are the Valyrian daggers which are unloaded from Eurons chest at the kingsmoot. The Captain of The Silence has become known for his open-handedness, making extravegant gifts left, right and centre. While we don't know exactly who recieved one of these daggers, one could imagine that if it's Eurons own loyal men who got the blades then those men would be of a certain low repute. Achieving political "sway" through gifting entire islands is one thing, but arming a crew of bloodthirsty reavers with such valuable weaponry seems odd. One reason could be the Crows Eyes affinity for the higher mysteries. Could Euron somehow be aware of the looming threat posed by the White Walkers? Maybe he's arming his men for "One last Storm"

This brings me to Dark Sister. (I apologize if I've waffled on a bit)

If the Euron=Bloodravens former apprentice theories have some semblance of thruth, I could certainly imagine the possibility of Lord Rivers gifting a young Crows Eye with the sword weilded by legendary dragons such as Visenya, the Dragon Knight, Rogue Prince etc. Of course if Euron ever made it to BRs cave then who's to say he didn't steal it.  Again this is all just speculation and I don't belive a word ive wrote but if Euron was already in possession of Dark Sister, this could explain his generority when it comes to the other VS blades he encounters. 

As a last point, I can't help but think the names of these swords fit nicely with Eurons current standing. 

Red Rain gives the image of a "sea of blood", imagery which surrounds several Euron related theories.

Nighfall fits well with the Crows Eyes placement as the third and maybe forth act villIain, aswell as the dark lore surrounding the Iron King himself. 

Dark Sister could mayhaps represent Eurons relationship with Dany.He seems to be a pretty corruptive force and If he intends to make her his queen, one could imagine he intends to corrupt her too. Thus maybe making a new mad king and turning Dany into a Dark Sister in her own way.

 

Leo, Blood of my Blood, welcome!   I got such a kick out of you posting about Red Rain and Nightfall with the backstories.  You may be the very person I've seen notice the names of the Drumm ancestors.  Isn't it rich?  Since you've specifically studied these 2 exquisite swords have you ever come across the actual coloring of Red Rain?   We know it is colored, but I've never found what color.   I found 2 artists' renderings of it having a red blade.  They were cool, but hardly canon.   

You've added yet more very cool ideas to this thread.  I'll tell you straight because you're obviously one of those posters I affectionately call detectives.  Your Euron idea is just right there with the epic horror that is becoming the Euron plot.  Who am I to say it couldn't shake out like that?  I will go back to the Kingsmoot where the chests were open and fast forward to The Forsaken, which I can't really quote here because it's TWOW stuff.  I'll give it a shot as discreetly as possible.   Euron's chest contained VS as you pointed out.   During the raid on the Shield Islands Vic notes that Euron allows the raiders to take the lion's share of the treasure.

Spoiler

Aeron recounts Euron's openhandedness very specifically.   Euron gives the riches to his men and keeps little for himself.  We don't know that Euron actually has the VS as we see it in one of Aeron's shade of the evening trips.   I think odds are good it is Euron's.  He's one of the few to travel the world.  But we just don't know for sure.

Finally we have Euron claiming to have thrown a dragon egg (maybe even more valuable than VS?) into the sea.   I haven't seen Euron lie yet, but he's one weird dude.  Euron seems to be collecting people not things.   This is suspicious, but we have to wait and see how it shakes out.  I'd love to comment on the relationship with BR but I couldn't add anything better than your own postulation.  

Thanks so much for keeping me up with your creepy imaginings.  You gave us a good read and an entirely new direction those swords could be headed.  Yikes!  You've inspired me to revisit the swords in a new topic, so maybe for the 1 year anniversary we can all get together with the bonfire screensaver and you can scare the hell out of us again.   

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Hey guys I'm new around here and I must say it's an honour.

Great post OP, some wonderful ideas flying around.

In regards to Nightfall and Red Rain, does anyone find it strange that "The Blackest Pirate ever to Raise Sail" Euron Greyjoy seemingly makes no attempt to claim the highly sought after Valyrian blades for himself?

While I understand that taking the blades from the current owners would be a bad move politically as Euron is still in the process of stabilising his political rule amongst the Iron men, would Euron really have undermined his own rule by sending some catspaw to retrieve either Dark Sister or Red Rain? It's difficult to say with any certainty but in the wake of the kingsmoot, couldn't the Crows Eye have made an offer to an ambitious member of either House Drumm or Harlaw, something along the lines of "Bring me the blade and I'll give you one of the Shields, money etc. 

Valyrian Swords are near priceless artifacts which would go nicely with other items in Eurons collection. With all his plans of marrying Dany, gaining a dragon through his Valyrian horn and sitting the Iron Throne, one would assume that weilding a Valyrian Sword could be highly usefull symbolically for the new Iron King.

Take the history of Nightfall itself. Taken from a dead corsair by no less an Ironborn hero than the Red Kraken, Dalton Greyjoy. Nightfall is a physical embodiment of "paying the iron price", aswell as embodying House Greyjoys power and status.

Dalton was Lord of the Isles at the age of 15, returning from abroad to claim the dead lords Seastone Chair (similiar to Euron returning from exile to claim Balons chair) then openly defied the green party during the Dance of Dragons (perhaps similiar to Euron defying both the current regime in KL and planning to defy Dany). We know reaving songs are sung to this day recounting the raids of the Red Kraken, so why did Euron seem otherwise uninterested? This was his families sword after all, would it be to much trouble to orchestrate some "fall from a bridge" for Ser Harras?

 When the Red Kraken took the Seastone Chair, he commanded the building of ships, training of soldiers and such, his reasoning when ased?  "The storm is coming" - very similiar to Eurons boasts of "I am the storm".

Red Rain is anothert blade one would assume would catch Eurons Eye. Another physical embodiment of "paying the iron price" - the blade was taken from a knight  by Hilmar the Cunning, using nothing but "wits and a wooden cudgel". If we look at historical members of house Drumm, we see several nicknames which may hint at a connection to the "higher mysteries"- names such as "Raven-Feeder", "The Necro Mancer", "The Dread" and "Old Father"  (and make no mistake,  all this is total speculation at this point) . The Crows Eye seemingly has an interest in the dark arts, one has to wonder why he would allow Dunstan Drumm and his party to return to the Isles with such a valuable and potentially lore filled sword (if the Isles are indeed where they ended up) and risk the blade being stolen or even sold.

While we don't know how Nightfall passed to house Harlaw, the fact that it is now weilded by Ser Harras Harlaw raises an eyebrow. As someone who identifies as a knight, and has the blood of the green lands coursing through his veins, one could imagine the current Lord of Greyshield having several targets on his back. Surrounded by other Ironmen on the shields, what's really to stop someone like Nute the Barber from trying to steal the blade from this jumped up "sheep to the seven". This is something I'm sure Euron would have taken into account, and yet Euron not only allows Harlaw to keep Nightfall on Grey Shield, he also shows a certain disregard for the Shield Islands, seemingly positioning them as perhaps a diversion for potential Hightower or Redwyn naval forces, thus perhaps endangering the blade even more.

King Euron also has other Valyrian items in hs collection. Some of his toys I would like to turn my attention to are the Valyrian daggers which are unloaded from Eurons chest at the kingsmoot. The Captain of The Silence has become known for his open-handedness, making extravegant gifts left, right and centre. While we don't know exactly who recieved one of these daggers, one could imagine that if it's Eurons own loyal men who got the blades then those men would be of a certain low repute. Achieving political "sway" through gifting entire islands is one thing, but arming a crew of bloodthirsty reavers with such valuable weaponry seems odd. One reason could be the Crows Eyes affinity for the higher mysteries. Could Euron somehow be aware of the looming threat posed by the White Walkers? Maybe he's arming his men for "One last Storm"

This brings me to Dark Sister. (I apologize if I've waffled on a bit)

If the Euron=Bloodravens former apprentice theories have some semblance of thruth, I could certainly imagine the possibility of Lord Rivers gifting a young Crows Eye with the sword weilded by legendary dragons such as Visenya, the Dragon Knight, Rogue Prince etc. Of course if Euron ever made it to BRs cave then who's to say he didn't steal it.  Again this is all just speculation and I don't belive a word ive wrote but if Euron was already in possession of Dark Sister, this could explain his generority when it comes to the other VS blades he encounters. 

As a last point, I can't help but think the names of these swords fit nicely with Eurons current standing. 

Red Rain gives the image of a "sea of blood", imagery which surrounds several Euron related theories.

Nighfall fits well with the Crows Eyes placement as the third and maybe forth act villIain, aswell as the dark lore surrounding the Iron King himself. 

Dark Sister could mayhaps represent Eurons relationship with Dany.He seems to be a pretty corruptive force and If he intends to make her his queen, one could imagine he intends to corrupt her too. Thus maybe making a new mad king and turning Dany into a Dark Sister in her own way.

 

Leo, Blood of my Blood, welcome!   I got such a kick out of you posting about Red Rain and Nightfall with the backstories.  You may be the very person I've seen notice the names of the Drumm ancestors.  Isn't it rich?  Since you've specifically studied these 2 exquisite swords have you ever come across the actual coloring of Red Rain?   We know it is colored, but I've never found what color.   I found 2 artists' renderings of it having a red blade.  They were cool, but hardly canon.   

You've added yet more very cool ideas to this thread.  I'll tell you straight because you're obviously one of those posters I affectionately call detectives.  Your Euron idea is just right there with the epic horror that is becoming the Euron plot.  Who am I to say it couldn't shake out like that?  I will go back to the Kingsmoot where the chests were open and fast forward to The Forsaken, which I can't really quote here because it's TWOW stuff.  I'll give it a shot as discreetly as possible.   Euron's chest contained VS as you pointed out.   During the raid on the Shield Islands Vic notes that Euron allows the raiders to take the lion's share of the treasure.

Spoiler

Aeron recounts Euron's openhandedness very specifically.   Euron gives the riches to his men and keeps little for himself.  We don't know that Euron actually has the VS as we see it in one of Aeron's shade of the evening trips.   I think odds are good it is Euron's.  He's one of the few to travel the world.  But we just don't know for sure.

Finally we have Euron claiming to have thrown a dragon egg (maybe even more valuable than VS?) into the sea.   I haven't seen Euron lie yet, but he's one weird dude.  Euron seems to be collecting people not things.   This is suspicious, but we have to wait and see how it shakes out.  I'd love to comment on the relationship with BR but I couldn't add anything better than your own postulation.  

Thanks so much for keeping me up with your creepy imaginings.  You gave us a good read and an entirely new direction those swords could be headed.  Yikes!  You've inspired me to revisit the swords in a new topic, so maybe for the 1 year anniversary we can all get together with the bonfire screensaver and you can scare the hell out of us again.   

[Leo of House Cartel]

Curled finger, well met Qoy Qoyi!

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Leo, Blood of my Blood, welcome!   I got such a kick out of you posting about Red Rain and Nightfall with the backstories.  You may be the very person I've seen notice the names of the Drumm ancestors.  Isn't it rich?  Since you've specifically studied these 2 exquisite swords have you ever come across the actual coloring of Red Rain?   We know it is colored, but I've never found what color.   I found 2 artists' renderings of it having a red blade.  They were cool, but hardly canon.   

While I can't say I'm entirely sure about the colouring of Red Rain, I can certainly offer some detective work!.

Now personally I think a red blade would be exquisite, I find certain flaws in the idea as it would surley be more memorable to opponents in the field.

We know of the mystique surrounding Dawn for its white blade, aswell as the generall awe-inspiring visual abilities of a "standard" Valyrian Sword and its "Smoke grey/black blade". Most times which VS blades/family swords are described in the books also come with a description of the weapons odd colouration. Is it not peculiar that  no-where in the text do we find mention of "an Ironborn captain, running through his foe with a red Valyrian blade"?  

During the last days of the Greyjoy rebellion, Ser Barristan Selmy was tasked with leading an attack on Old Wyk, seat of House Drumm. As Selmy was Lord Commander of the Kingsguard at the time, logic would dictate that he had a strong force of men with him. Beign from the stormlands, homelands of the kings,  aswell as being LC would also assure Ser Barristan was surrounded by at least a few skilled warriors of renoun. And yet at no point does Barry recount us with a tale like "The lord of Old Wyk, weilding that wicked Red blade, He fought bravely in defence of the Ironmens holy isle". Hell, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to assume that some stormlanders in Stannis' camp may have been a part of Barristan The Bolds Old Wyk force. If so then as Stannis and Mel make claims about "The Red Sword of Azor Ahai",  one would assume that a comparison may be made somewhere to Red Rain (If the blade is indeed red). Im sure it wouldn't take much for say, Davos, Mel or even Saan to learn of  such talk.

As Old Wyk is home to Naggas bones, and could be considered like "Baelors Sept" to the Drowned God Faith, wouldn't defence of such sacred grounds be of the highest importance to the defending lord? Surley Lord Drumm, as not only head of an ancient house (and one perhaps linked to the higher mysteries)  but also someone who was fighting to crown Balon, would have saw the encroaching Selmy force as an opportunity to crown his house in glory? He weilded a Valyian sword after all, and I'm sure "The Bone Hand" had sufficient training-to-arms. Regardless, we here no mention of a red blade during Greyjoys rebellion. Could it be that Lord Drumm is craven? Perhaps, however he could be taking more inspiration from his ancestor who took Red Rain in the first place, Hilmar, The Cunning.

After Roberts host smashed the walls of Pyke and Balon knelt, I'd imagine somekind of "inspection" would take place. Wouldn't the forces of the IT want to do some form of "inventory" check on the vanquished opposition? If so, would Robert and his men really allow these rebel forces to keep such valuable items as VS swords? Somehow Red Rain (and presumeably Nightfall too) managed to stay in the possesion of the Ironmen after  Roberts victory. Id imagine it wouldn't be difficult for Lords Drumm or Harlaw to hide the blades or somehow escape. The lack of mention of any Valyrian blades when Greyjoys Rebellion is discussed, regardless of blade colouration, raises an eye. It perhaps points to Lord Drumm and Harlaw knowing there cause was lost, maybe stashing the valuable swords and heading into battle weilding standard IB weoponry. This would mayhaps somewhat parrallel Balon "Bending the knee, only to rise again with knife in hand".

Red Rain is often spoken of as the potential heirloom sword of House Reyne of Catamere. Now the name certainly fits with the lore surrounding that tragic house, and we know the Red Lions pride waxed due to vast silver mining operations, so the Reynes certainly could be the original victims of Hilmars cunning. What interests me here in Tywin Lannister and his ofen overlooked lust for valyrian steel. Now it is said that Tywin tried for years to purchase a replacement blade for vaunted Brightroar, wouldn't a "long and sharp claw" from a "cat of a different cloak" really get the golden lion purring?

Again we have no way of knowing if Tywin was even aware that House Drumm had such a blade, let alone if its the blade is that of house Reyne. It would be prudent to assume that the Lord of Casterly Rock would have esatblished some form of information network regarding which houses has VS swords, and which may be open to sell. If so then if he ever found out that Red Rain was in the Drumms possesion, its easy to imagine some form of offer being made.

One last thing, when Tywin commishioned Tobho Mott to reforge Ice, it is said Tywin ordered some form of colourant to be folded into the steel, with the intention of turning the blades "Lannister Red". Unfortunately for the Lion of Lannister, that particular idea didn't entirely work, as Widows Wail and Oathkeeper have the traditional dark VS colour bleeding through. It does make me wonder however, if Red Rain is indeed red, then how many other VS blades could be coloured? And did Tywin want these blades to be red perhaps to emmulate to colour of the infamous Brightroar?

[The Hammer of Justice]

It just ocurred to me, that Dark Sister could be with Howland Reed, and it will serve as a proof of Jon's parentage, Rhaegar might have had the sword, so Howland could be hiding it waiting for the best moment to reveal it.

Or it could be in Lyanna's tomb in the Winterfell crypts

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, The Hammer of Justice said:

It just ocurred to me, that Dark Sister could be with Howland Reed, and it will serve as a proof of Jon's parentage, Rhaegar might have had the sword, so Howland could be hiding it waiting for the best moment to reveal it.

Or it could be in Lyanna's tomb in the Winterfell crypts

OK, tell you what Hammer.  I've got a new topic going right now so when it's run it's course I'm going to start a new sword topic.  I want you and @Khal Shaggydog and @Leo of House Cartel to come deposit your ideas there.   We will get all these ideas in a single place and hopefully some of our old friends will join us in the conversation.   I believe I've seen Blackfyre named as possibly in the crypts but I don't remember Dark Sister being put there.   You've got a whole line of logic going here, run with it!   

[Curled Finger]

@Leo of House Cartel, I love how your mind works.  All I've got in  the way of defense of Red Rain possibly being red is the mention of the distinct coloring.  That's it.  Orphan-Maker is black and I think we've got decent descriptions of Longclaw, Ice, Lady Forlorn, Dark Sister, Blackfyre, Widow's Wail, Heartsbane and Oathkeeper.  I don't recall any mention of color for the remaining swords.  There is that very curious moonstone in the pommel of Nightfall, but that's another discussion.  Your logic against Red Rain being red is sound and you'll get no argument from me.  To the battle and VS taking part in it I think even the Iron Born aren't fool enough to use their precious swords in real battle--then again the Iron Born are all nuts so who knows. I always think of the VS swords as heirlooms belonging in museums rather than weapons to be won and lost in battle.  If Drumm and Harlaw have half the sense the Drowned God gave them those swords would have been hidden safely away.

Ah, Tywin's hunt for anyone willing to part with a VS sword.  I like to use asearchoficeandfire for research.  I found a house that matches Tyrion's description of the 3 houses Tywin approached to purchase their swords.   The exact wording was "impoverished houses".  If you do the search you might be surprised with the result.  Tywin had a vast network and I think he probably knew a lot more than we do about the swords and who has them.   I think Corbray is a given contender since we know he's broke.  Going through the other houses by process of elimination you can scratch Tarly, Hightower (if they still have Vigilance), Stark and Harlaw.  That leaves Mormont and Drumm.   I'm not even sure either could be considered impoverished.   Bear Island is called "modest" and Old Wyk is the religious capital of the Iron Islands. But they aren't obviously broke like Corbray is. Leads me to believe there is 1, possibly 2 swords left in someone's possession that we haven't been told about.   Anyone for Orphan-Maker or Truth?  Tywin with Red Rain would have been too much for me to stomach.   I'm glad he didn't get it.  

I'm not sure about dyes and steel of any variety.  But this is magic steel, so sure, why not.  Honestly, when I imagine colors they are all in the grey category so I will go with blue grey or green grey as most likely.  However, since you are a detective do you know if there have been any artists commissioned to produce a likeness of Red Rain?  I spent a couple of hours looking at drawing and painting and ink on the web one day and there are some beautiful renditions, but if we knew there was a particular one I bet we could nail it.  

[Seams]

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah, Tywin's hunt for anyone willing to part with a VS sword.  I like to use asearchoficeandfire for research.  I found a house that matches Tyrion's description of the 3 houses Tywin approached to purchase their swords.   The exact wording was "impoverished houses".  If you do the search you might be surprised with the result. 

Alright, I did the search and this is very, very interesting.

Spoiler

Corbray, Payne (Podrick's lesser branch) and Westerling! I would faint if Podrick became heir to the Truth! That is so fitting with the King's Justice, Ser Ilyn Payne, using (Just) Ice to execute Ned. And a Westerling VS sword would be SO interesting. Which of the "missing" VS swords would fit their storyline? Corbrays are known to have Lady Forlorn, which I associate with the forlorn Jeyne Poole / fArya, but I suppose there are other forlorn ladies. So interesting. Thanks for this!

 

[Curled Finger]

@Seams I wondered if you would have time to visit the new conversations.   After all your well deserved wins and places oh cratch that, it's always good to have you here win, lose or draw!  Glad you enjoyed my little fun thing.   Ready for a new sword topic?  

[Seams]

33 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

@Seams I wondered if you would have time to visit the new conversations.   After all your well deserved wins and places oh cratch that, it's always good to have you here win, lose or draw!  Glad you enjoyed my little fun thing.   Ready for a new sword topic?  

This conversation? I'll take a look.

 

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, Seams said:

This conversation? I'll take a look.

 

Nono!  This right here about the swords.  You made a lot of contributions and are included when I call this "our" conversation.  I'm having trouble quoting again so I will keep it short and sweet.   I got a kick out of you enjoying the impoverished houses.  Naturally, I went straight for Orphan-Maker for our boy because he's an orphan.  GRRM himself said when his 5 year thing didn't work out (paraphrase!) Screw it.   If it has to be a 12 year old boy who saves the world then so be it.   

I'm taking a beating for my very unpopular ideas in the Wildlings topic.   Ah well, it hasn't changed since the first time I brought it up so I didn't expect open arms but I did hope someone would notice that it isn't my usual writing style.   I really tried to be a serious big kid in presentation.   Win some and lose some.    It's exciting to see the new interest here though, and like warm sunshine when you pop in.   Thanks for joining in.  I know you are very busy!  

[Seams]

4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Nono!  This right here about the swords.  You made a lot of contributions and are included when I call this "our" conversation.  I'm having trouble quoting again so I will keep it short and sweet.   I got a kick out of you enjoying the impoverished houses.  Naturally, I went straight for Orphan-Maker for our boy because he's an orphan.  GRRM himself said when his 5 year thing didn't work out (paraphrase!) Screw it.   If it has to be a 12 year old boy who saves the world then so be it.   

I'm taking a beating for my very unpopular ideas in the Wildlings topic.   Ah well, it hasn't changed since the first time I brought it up so I didn't expect open arms but I did hope someone would notice that it isn't my usual writing style.   I really tried to be a serious big kid in presentation.   Win some and lose some.    It's exciting to see the new interest here though, and like warm sunshine when you pop in.   Thanks for joining in.  I know you are very busy!  

I'm not terribly busy; just crabby, as usual.

I guess I didn't have to put that paragraph about the search results in spoiler quotes, except I thought some people might want to do the search themselves and have that Aha! moment.

I would think that an orphan would want to avoid making others into orphans, so would eschew (or rename) a sword called "Orphan Maker."

Re-reading Pod's bio on the wiki, though, I start to get a Glendon "Fireball" Flowers vibe, with the father who disappeared and the mother who had a low reputation and the low-born but thoroughly honorable knight who emerges with excellent fighting skills. The Brienne / Dunk connection would also be a significant shared element. I wonder whether we will see more of Ser Glendon in the next Dunk & Egg story? I think we need to know more about the foreshadowing he might offer, if nothing else.

I have another, non-VS sword notion that continues to nag at me, though: the swords of the north men that were not confiscated when Thorren Stark bent the knee. What if those were stored in the upper story of the Queenscrown tower? That doesn't explain where they were between the time Aegon took the swords and his granddaughter, Alysanne, built the tower, I realize.

But here's the possible VS connection: if the Westerlings are one of the impoverished houses that refused to sell their VS sword to Tywin, that sword is connected to (probably) Jeyne Westerling's brother, who was a loyal squire to Robb Stark. Jeyne appears determined to remain loyal to her late husband on some level, and she received a forehead injury (= opened her third eye) when her mother snatched from her head the crown that Robb Stark had given to her. Would Jeyne's crown match Robb's in some way, and feature a design that incorporates great swords around the band? Maybe Jeyne will even get her hands on the Westerling VS sword. (We do see her in a sewing scene with Catelyn.)

Hmm. Westerling, sterling - there was something about Tywin trying to buy silver to make swords to kill the Stark wargs (Arya POV at Harrenhal). Do any of your missing VS swords have some kind of "silver" aspect to their name? Maybe this silver VS sword will bite more lions than wolves.

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, Seams said:

I'm not terribly busy; just crabby, as usual.

I guess I didn't have to put that paragraph about the search results in spoiler quotes, except I thought some people might want to do the search themselves and have that Aha! moment.

I would think that an orphan would want to avoid making others into orphans, so would eschew (or rename) a sword called "Orphan Maker."

Re-reading Pod's bio on the wiki, though, I start to get a Glendon "Fireball" Flowers vibe, with the father who disappeared and the mother who had a low reputation and the low-born but thoroughly honorable knight who emerges with excellent fighting skills. The Brienne / Dunk connection would also be a significant shared element. I wonder whether we will see more of Ser Glendon in the next Dunk & Egg story? I think we need to know more about the foreshadowing he might offer, if nothing else.

I have another, non-VS sword notion that continues to nag at me, though: the swords of the north men that were not confiscated when Thorren Stark bent the knee. What if those were stored in the upper story of the Queenscrown tower? That doesn't explain where they were between the time Aegon took the swords and his granddaughter, Alysanne, built the tower, I realize.

But here's the possible VS connection: if the Westerlings are one of the impoverished houses that refused to sell their VS sword to Tywin, that sword is connected to (probably) Jeyne Westerling's brother, who was a loyal squire to Robb Stark. Jeyne appears determined to remain loyal to her late husband on some level, and she received a forehead injury (= opened her third eye) when her mother snatched from her head the crown that Robb Stark had given to her. Would Jeyne's crown match Robb's in some way, and feature a design that incorporates great swords around the band? Maybe Jeyne will even get her hands on the Westerling VS sword. (We do see her in a sewing scene with Catelyn.)

Hmm. Westerling, sterling - there was something about Tywin trying to buy silver to make swords to kill the Stark wargs (Arya POV at Harrenhal). Do any of your missing VS swords have some kind of "silver" aspect to their name? Maybe this silver VS sword will bite more lions than wolves.

I'm just sitting here grinning and thinking about how much I've missed you in a sword discussion.   I'm heading out of state for a few days, but I'll be back and get to all of this early as I can.    I was thinking about the Westerlings.   I discounted them quickly because I thought But Sybel is a conniving jerk, she would sell her daughter...blah blah blah...then it occurred to me I thought the same of Lyn Corbray.   I'm down with both of our mystery houses having swords...and seeing what becomes of that!   Details soon.  

[The Hammer of Justice]

On 27/01/2017 at 2:55 AM, Curled Finger said:

OK, tell you what Hammer.  I've got a new topic going right now so when it's run it's course I'm going to start a new sword topic.  I want you and @Khal Shaggydog and @Leo of House Cartel to come deposit your ideas there.   We will get all these ideas in a single place and hopefully some of our old friends will join us in the conversation.   I believe I've seen Blackfyre named as possibly in the crypts but I don't remember Dark Sister being put there.   You've got a whole line of logic going here, run with it!   

Sure, but I couldn't find the topic