Question about the Causeway at Queenscrown.

[Seams]

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

My own theory which I'm building towards , that is connected to my old beliefs that Old Nan was either from one of the Northern mountain clans or that she was an Umber, is now that Old Nan is possibly one of the old inhabits of the Village beside Queenscrown, and she fled south in fear of Wildling Raiders to seek refuge with either the Mountain clans or the Umbers and stayed with them for a time before she finally went to WF to wet nurse for baby Brandon. 

I think the mentions of Nan during the chapters of Jon and Bran at Queenscrown  are possibly a nod to this, and she does have the inside Info of the zig-zag secret causeway. 

Plus, and this may be nothing mind you lol, but I noticed Hodors behaviour when they arrive at the place. He seems sad and confused. It made me wonder, if Old Nan had ever sat Hodor down and told him in detail of the place where she grew up, and when he sees the Tower, the inn and village etc, and how ruinous it has become, he remembers the story his great grandmother told him and it makes him sad.

Fascinating! I love this.

You probably know that there are a couple or three small clues that link Old Nan and Hodor to the Freys: Hodor's real name is Walder, which is a big clue. When Nan is telling a story to Bran, she uses the word "mayhaps" which is maybe a small clue.

In the Puns & Wordplay thread, people are discovering puns that use German words (@Isobel Harper pointed out that "Dorne" is the German word for "thorn," for instance. "Gift" is the German word for poison. GRRM almost certainly intended a pun around "Ice" and "eyes," so the fact that the German word for "iron" is "Eisen" adds a layer of meaning to that combination. Come to think of it, the German word for "egg" is "Ei," so that is probably connected to the Ice / eyes pun, too.

Anyway, the possible German connection to your theory is that "Wald" is the German word for "woods." So the name Walder might mean someone from the woods, which might lend support for your theory that Nan has an old ancestral mountain clan connection AND, if she is connected to the Frey family, give us a little window of insight into the origins and motives of that nutty bunch.

Instead of a villager attacked by wildlings, what if Nan was a wildling?

The present-day Freys are obviously gatekeepers: Lord of the Crossing. The Twins and the bridges across the river control the major access route to and from the North. But Hodor and Catelyn's two Frey wards, Big Walder and Little Walder, go into the Winterfell crypt which probably represents a gateway to the Underworld. Before the action of AGoT begins, Hodor sees something there that causes him to lose his ability to speak (according to Old Nan). Bran is unhappy that Rickon takes the two Walders into the crypt because it is a Stark place. I have a sneaking suspicion that the two Walders have been charged with a specific mission of finding a gate of some kind in the crypt: Boltons want Stark skins and Freys want access to the Stark gate. Maybe Hodor was snooping around with the same intention, but suffered some kind of shock or spell (a brain injury inflicted by a skin changer?) that caused him to forget what he had seen or to be unable to describe it. Just as the weirwood gate under the Night Fort can be opened only by a member of the Night's Watch, perhaps the gate in the Winterfell crypt repels Frey attempts to open it, in spite of their role as gatekeepers for the North.

If your theory is correct, maybe the Frey family came from the North and they want to find some kind of link to the (symbolic, not literal) Underworld or back to the North. (Which might be the same thing.)

16 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Which actually eliminates the defenders possibility for escape if they were sieged...

Unless they had a flying creature they could ride away from the top of the Tower.

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Off topic, I did think it interesting that while in the towerhouse as night was falling Hodor grew restless & walked round and round the walls stopping to look at the privy each time he passed it. ...

This may be a hint to Hodor’s past.

Actually, this sounds like a link to Dunk & Egg's Mystery Knight story. Someone comes up through the privy in that story. The Freys were present for the events of that story.

3 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Jon tells Ygritte: “Some little lording lived there once with his family and a few sworn men. When the raiders came he would light a beacon fire from the roof.

Bran says he knows about the causeway because of one of Nan’s tales. Jon kinda implies the same. I would guess if the information is in one of Nan’s tales it is fairly common knowledge. Your guess is as good as mine.

I bet Jon didn't listen carefully to Nan's stories - he is a man of action and leaves books and stories to his other half, Sam Tarly. I read somewhere that Jon Snow knows nothing, in fact.

Nan also throws in a "mayhaps" here and there when telling her stories. She may deliberately misrepresent some of the details to disguise the real meaning or purpose of some of the landmarks in her stories. As I say, I think the Queenscrown has a significance we haven't yet discovered. I think this was the place Good Queen Alysanne gave birth and would come to visit her illegitimate child. The beacon fire may have been her dragon having a snack while he waited for her.

[Clegane'sPup]

Actually Seams I very rarely agree with what you say. 

[Macgregor of the North]

6 hours ago, Seams said:

Fascinating! I love this.

You probably know that there are a couple or three small clues that link Old Nan and Hodor to the Freys: Hodor's real name is Walder, which is a big clue. When Nan is telling a story to Bran, she uses the word "mayhaps" which is maybe a small clue.

In the Puns & Wordplay thread, people are discovering puns that use German words (@Isobel Harper pointed out that "Dorne" is the German word for "thorn," for instance. "Gift" is the German word for poison. GRRM almost certainly intended a pun around "Ice" and "eyes," so the fact that the German word for "iron" is "Eisen" adds a layer of meaning to that combination. Come to think of it, the German word for "egg" is "Ei," so that is probably connected to the Ice / eyes pun, too.

Anyway, the possible German connection to your theory is that "Wald" is the German word for "woods." So the name Walder might mean someone from the woods, which might lend support for your theory that Nan has an old ancestral mountain clan connection AND, if she is connected to the Frey family, give us a little window of insight into the origins and motives of that nutty bunch.

Instead of a villager attacked by wildlings, what if Nan was a wildling?

The present-day Freys are obviously gatekeepers: Lord of the Crossing. The Twins and the bridges across the river control the major access route to and from the North. But Hodor and Catelyn's two Frey wards, Big Walder and Little Walder, go into the Winterfell crypt which probably represents a gateway to the Underworld. Before the action of AGoT begins, Hodor sees something there that causes him to lose his ability to speak (according to Old Nan). Bran is unhappy that Rickon takes the two Walders into the crypt because it is a Stark place. I have a sneaking suspicion that the two Walders have been charged with a specific mission of finding a gate of some kind in the crypt: Boltons want Stark skins and Freys want access to the Stark gate. Maybe Hodor was snooping around with the same intention, but suffered some kind of shock or spell (a brain injury inflicted by a skin changer?) that caused him to forget what he had seen or to be unable to describe it. Just as the weirwood gate under the Night Fort can be opened only by a member of the Night's Watch, perhaps the gate in the Winterfell crypt repels Frey attempts to open it, in spite of their role as gatekeepers for the North.

If your theory is correct, maybe the Frey family came from the North and they want to find some kind of link to the (symbolic, not literal) Underworld or back to the North. (Which might be the same thing.)

Unless they had a flying creature they could ride away from the top of the Tower.

Actually, this sounds like a link to Dunk & Egg's Mystery Knight story. Someone comes up through the privy in that story. The Freys were present for the events of that story.

I bet Jon didn't listen carefully to Nan's stories - he is a man of action and leaves books and stories to his other half, Sam Tarly. I read somewhere that Jon Snow knows nothing, in fact.

Nan also throws in a "mayhaps" here and there when telling her stories. She may deliberately misrepresent some of the details to disguise the real meaning or purpose of some of the landmarks in her stories. As I say, I think the Queenscrown has a significance we haven't yet discovered. I think this was the place Good Queen Alysanne gave birth and would come to visit her illegitimate child. The beacon fire may have been her dragon having a snack while he waited for her.

Again, lots of interesting stuff there. Cheers. As to Nan as a Wildling, I did a piece recently which centred around the saying "Dark wings, dark words".

What I set out to do was find out who says it and where it came from. It turns out it's used very heavily amongst the Ironborn and Northern people. And Old Nan actually taught the saying to a young Ned, and Bran. 

Theres also a time where Tormund mutters the saying, and then he says, "isn't that what you Kneelers say?", so to me, this saying has never been used among Wildlings and therefore I struggle to see how Old Nan could have learned this saying in her youth?.

The best instance was the Liddle Bran meets, who says the saying and then says "me mum used to say", so this shows it's an old proverb among the mountain clans. Could be another nod to Nan spending a lot of time there perhaps? I thought as much. 

On to Walder/Hodor. I have always kept his real name in mind. What I theorised once was that he was born in the south, possibly through some Crakehall/Frey bastardry which may account for his size, and named so to gain Walder Freys favour, but when they noticed he was freakishly big and showing signs of being a simple minded lad, they shipped him North to his Great grandmother. The theory never took off on here and of I'm honest it is probably unlikely. 

Your idea that Hodor was perhaps on some kind of scouting mission is interesting, and I do recall he was spooked by the crypts but I personally put that down to a kind of spirit of sorts of Ned Stark returning there to talk with his sons through dream, and Hodor felt that presence in the crypts.

I can't recall anything right now in the books though about Hodor losing his speech and an incident in the crypts causing that, could you help me there? Did Old Nan state that? 

[Macgregor of the North]

6 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Which actually eliminates the defenders possibility for escape if they were sieged...

Queenscrowns plans in siege times seem to be hole up and light the beacon to wait for Winterfells help. 

[Seams]

4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Again, lots of interesting stuff there. Cheers. As to Nan as a Wildling, I did a piece recently which centred around the saying "Dark wings, dark words".

What I set out to do was find out who says it and where it came from. It turns out it's used very heavily amongst the Ironborn and Northern people. And Old Nan actually taught the saying to a young Ned, and Bran. 

Theres also a time where Tormund mutters the saying, and then he says, "isn't that what you Kneelers say?", so to me, this saying has never been used among Wildlings and therefore I struggle to see how Old Nan could have learned this saying in her youth?.

The best instance was the Liddle Bran meets, who says the saying and then says "me mum used to say", so this shows it's an old proverb among the mountain clans. Could be another nod to Nan spending a lot of time there perhaps? I thought as much. 

Very interesting to analyze that old proverb - nice catch! It does seem to refute the possibility that Old Nan might be a north-of-the-Wall wildling and to support the notion that she is from the mountain clans. It also underscores that she and, perhaps, the mother of Mr. Liddle are crones. Crones are associated with ravens and the proverb underscores the connection between ravens and tidings of death or other bad news. Catelyn explains the crone / raven association after writing to Lysa about their father's imminent death:

After she entrusted the parchment to the maester's care, Catelyn went to the sept and lit a candle to the Father Above for her own father's sake, a second to the Crone, who had let the first raven into the world when she peered through the door of death, and a third to the Mother, for Lysa and all the children they had both lost. (ASoS, Catelyn I)

The proverb might also provide evidence linking Old Nan to the Frey gatekeeping role, if she is the expert on ravens bringing news through the door of death.

8 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

On to Walder/Hodor. ...

Your idea that Hodor was perhaps on some kind of scouting mission is interesting, and I do recall he was spooked by the crypts but I personally put that down to a kind of spirit of sorts of Ned Stark returning there to talk with his sons through dream, and Hodor felt that presence in the crypts.

I can't recall anything right now in the books though about Hodor losing his speech and an incident in the crypts causing that, could you help me there? Did Old Nan state that? 

You're right. I just tried to find it using the A Search of Ice and Fire website and couldn't find it. So I must have read someone's theory in the forum and took it as a paraphrase from the books instead of an inference. My mistake.

[Jon Fossoway]

16 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Queenscrowns plans in siege times seem to be hole up and light the beacon to wait for Winterfells help. 

Fair enough. More like the Umbers though, since they are very close.

[Macgregor of the North]

8 hours ago, Seams said:

Very interesting to analyze that old proverb - nice catch! It does seem to refute the possibility that Old Nan might be a north-of-the-Wall wildling and to support the notion that she is from the mountain clans. It also underscores that she and, perhaps, the mother of Mr. Liddle are crones. Crones are associated with ravens and the proverb underscores the connection between ravens and tidings of death or other bad news. Catelyn explains the crone / raven association after writing to Lysa about their father's imminent death:

After she entrusted the parchment to the maester's care, Catelyn went to the sept and lit a candle to the Father Above for her own father's sake, a second to the Crone, who had let the first raven into the world when she peered through the door of death, and a third to the Mother, for Lysa and all the children they had both lost. (ASoS, Catelyn I)

The proverb might also provide evidence linking Old Nan to the Frey gatekeeping role, if she is the expert on ravens bringing news through the door of death.

You're right. I just tried to find it using the A Search of Ice and Fire website and couldn't find it. So I must have read someone's theory in the forum and took it as a paraphrase from the books instead of an inference. My mistake.

Seams, that bit about the Crones when it says 'let the first Raven in to the world when she peered through the door of death' went over my head in the books I'll admit. That's a great piece of text. 

If you don't mind I'm gonna leave a couple notes I had kicking around which I had on Nan. These concern Umbers, and Wildlings. Because I personally think Nan, if she was from the village in the gift, split from there and became part of either the Umber or Mountain clans community, before taking her chance at a better life at WF as a wet nurse.

Notes on Nan origin.

I decided to do a bit of work on Old Nan as she's always interested me.

I've noticed on rereads her hatred for the Wildlings seems quite strong so I'm gonna use this to possibly dig through the books for clues or hints at a possible past grievance or any nod toward anything that may gimme leads to go further and see clues for a possible place of origin/birth that Nan hails from. 
My thoughts are that she is of the North and I have never really strayed from that line of thinking, so with this in mind i am going to try and connect Old Nan with one of the Starks banner men. I'm going with The Umbers from Last hearth. Incase years of age/birth come into things I will say I also think Old Nans birth date is somewhere in the 190'sAC.

I'll begin with a quote.

AGOT BRAN I:

"The man had been taken outside a small holdfast in the hills. Robb thought he was a wildling, his sword sworn to Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall. It made Bran's skin prickle to think of it. He remembered the hearth tales Old Nan told them. The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children."

Ok so right off the bat we have some strong feelings here, Old Nan pours acid on the Wildlings in this tale she tells the Stark children. She pulls no punches by letting them know exactly how she feels about Wildlings and telling the children things Wildlings have done. 

Bits to note: They steal girl children in the dead of the night. Is the word Hearth a possible sly nod/clue to House Umber? Hearth tales, like tales she remembers from her youth at Last Hearth. Likely not and I am just noticing it as I have House Umber in the mind and with the reference to stealing girl children which can be applied to the Umbers it's something that stuck out. 
Anyways.

Another quote:

ASOS BRAN III:

"They were afraid of the wildlings," said Bran. "Wildlings come over the Wall or through the mountains, to raid and steal and carry off women. If they catch you, they make your skull into a cup to drink blood, Old Nan used to say. The Night's Watch isn't so strong as it was in Brandon's day or Queen Alysanne's, so more get through. The places nearest the Wall got raided so much the smallfolk moved south, into the mountains or onto the Umber lands east of the kingsroad. The Greatjon's people get raided too, but not so much as the people who used to live in the Gift." 

Here Bran talks of the gift, and again we hear of Nan's scorn against the Wildlings and again a reference to the Wildlings stealing away with women. Also, note a House Umber mention, a proper mention this time, while the last one was very vague by my own admission with the word hearth being used.

So already we have Old Nan showing strong feelings towards Wildlings and mentioning twice how they steal away with girls. I wonder if whenever Nan talks about this, personal feelings of anger arise from an instance that is closer to home for her, or maybe not. It's worth noting anyway though. 

So we have Old Nan who came to WF to wet nurse for baby Brandon Stark after the death of Lyanne Glover, which I have always assumed to be Willams 1st wife. And with her she brings knowledge that makes for great stories, but also she brings animosity toward the Wildlings which could be due to more than just the usual ill feeling that Northeners have against the free folk beyond the wall. 

Let's look at Umbers and Wildlings. We know that Umber lands are raided etc. and have been since the dawn of days, which means it's likely more girls have been stolen throughout the past as well as gold, animals etc.,but we know of a particular case which has left a sour taste in the mouths of the Umbers which involves the stealing of a girl.
The daughter of Mors 'Crowfood' Umber was stolen by Wildlings in or very close to 270AC.

ADWD JON IV:

"The elder of the Greatjon's uncles. Crowfood, they call him. A crow once took him for dead and pecked out his eye. He caught the bird in his fist and bit its head off. When Mors was young he was a fearsome fighter. His sons died on the Trident, his wife in childbed. His only daughter was carried off by wildlings thirty years ago."

This makes me wonder that when Nan tells the Stark children the stories of Wildlings stealing girls, does this situation play a part in her emotions when she tells it? Is this perhaps kin of hers? Is this a little close to home for comfort for Nan?.
When she tells stories to the Stark kids, some may be around the year 296AC, 26 years after the girl was taken, recent enough to be fresh in the memory to still sting every time you tell it.(I have taken this year from the rough age that Bran will start to remember the tales Old Nan tells the Stark kids).

There is more history with Umbers and Wildlings. I bet they took great pleasure in smashing The King beyond the Wall Raymun Redbeards host alongside Willam and Artos Stark at Long Lake when the Wildlings breached the Wall and ventured south in 226AC. Some small payback for generations of raiding, theft and kidnappings.

ADWD JON II:

"Raymun's host had met a bloody end on the shores of Long Lake, caught between Lord Willam of Winterfell and the Drunken Giant, Harmond Umber."

At this point in history I would place Old Nan around 30 years old. Already been at WF a while, 1st as wet nurse, then staying on with her own children after baby Brandon dies. Since Lord Willam himself dies in battle, it's possible some Umber men do to, which could fuel the ill feeling Nan has toward the Wildlings, as well as the stealing of Mors' daughter, and other grievances committed by Wildlings against Umbers during other past raids.

Next I'll check out a comparison with Wildlings and Umbers that is noticeable in the books, concerning skulls as drinking cups:

ADWD JON IV:

""Half of them, and only if I meet this Crowfood's price," said Stannis, in an irritated tone. "He wants Mance Rayder's skull for a drinking cup, and he wants a pardon for his brother, who has ridden south to join Bolton. Whoresbane, he's called."

"The few who live that long. If Stannis placed the free folk in the van, most would perish quickly. "Drinking from Mance Rayder's skull may give Mors Umber pleasure, but seeing wildlings cross his lands will not. The free folk have been raiding the Umbers since the Dawn of Days, crossing the Bay of Seals for gold and sheep and women. One of those carried off was Crowfood's daughter. Your Grace, leave the wildlings here. Taking them will only serve to turn my lord father's bannermen against you."

ASOS BRAN III:

"They were afraid of the wildlings," said Bran. "Wildlings come over the Wall or through the mountains, to raid and steal and carry off women. If they catch you, they make your skull into a cup to drink blood, Old Nan used to say."

Is it possible an Umber once killed by Wildlings had his skull made into a drinking cup and the Umbers got wind of the boast and want to return the insult? 

Let's look at another quote next. This one shows Nan telling the Stark children about the Umbers. We are used to Nan telling the kids about stories of legend and myths etc but this seems like a familiar way you would tell people of your kin in a funny way.

ACOK BRAN II:

"The next day two of them came together to audience; the Greatjon's uncles, blustery men in the winter of their days with beards as white as the bearskin cloaks they wore. A crow had once taken Mors for dead and pecked out his eye, so he wore a chunk of dragonglass in its stead. As Old Nan told the tale, he'd grabbed the crow in his fist and bitten its head off, so they named him Crowfood. She would never tell Bran why his gaunt brother Hother was called Whoresbane."

So we seem to have a familiarity here with Nan talking about the Umbers that is different to her usual story telling which is usually about older stories/legends. It's almost like she knows them. Possibly because they are family? Who knows. 

Next let's look at some connections between House Stark and House Umber through marriage and children etc. 

We had a marriage between Jon Umber, and Serena Stark. This marriage was childless, and could have been due to the young death of Jon Umber as Serena then later marries her uncle Edric and has four children. 
I had the marriage to Jon around 162-166AC.
With the betrothal, marriage and birth of children with Edric taking place around 170-178AC. In this time a daughter is born. Arrana Stark. This Arrana Stark also marries an Umber man. Osric, in around the 190'sAC I think.
Now while I would love to place Our Nan as the daughter of Arrana Stark and Osric Umber due to the timelines fitting very well, something tells me it's to easy. I just think that if Old Nan was part Stark we would have heard about it in the books by now. But, I'm willing to believe that Old Nan was born at Last hearth around the same time as Arrana and Osrics kid/s and possibly grew up listening to hearth tales of horrible Wildlings who stole girls and drank from skull cups.

So with a good strong Stark/Umber connection in place. And when baby Brandon Stark is in need of a Wet nurse quickly upon the death of his mother. We could see a rider, (or Raven)make for Last hearth from WF, which is a gallop up the Kingsroad and a slight turn east off the road, to request the services of any new lactating mothers for the Lord of WF's son. And thus we see Old Nan arrive at WF with at least one or more children. It's not 100% clear if Nan has all children before, or just had one but has the others after arriving, or arrives with two, and has more later in life. Who knows.

Here's a few extras to throw on top:

Hodor is referred to as a giant.
The Umbers are massive men, and their sigil is a roaring giant in shattered chains, also, here's a wee quote that mentions Hodor and the GreatJon together:

"And when Lord Umber, who was called the Greatjon by his men and stood as tall as Hodor and twice as wide,"

And IF! Nan was Arrana and Osrics daughter, Nan fits into Arrana snugly. A stretch I know.

Also, Old Nans sons died in Roberts rebellion, so did Mors Umbers. Possibly a useless connection but it stood out to me in the text all the same.

So. I'm basically trying to get an angle on the possibility that Old Nan is an Umber from Last Hearth who came to WF but stayed on even after her services were needed. It's possible that from the tales and histories she has learned from her people while growing up, this has caused her to hate and fear the Wildlings that much that she asked to stay on under the protection of the wardens of the North at WF, which is viewed by Nan as a safer place to raise her children. 

These I noted down a wee while back. 

Any of this of interest? 

I just personally can't see her ever being a Wildling or from the south. She is northern in my mind. 

The funny thing is it hasn't got massive bearing on the story but I always found her origin very interesting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

18 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Fair enough. More like the Umbers though, since they are very close.

Yup definitely. A place that far north is only ever gonna be in trouble from further north(I can't see why a southern force would trouble Queenscrown), which likely means Wildlings, and the Umbers would be super keen to aid anybody in trouble from Wildlings. 

[Seams]

12 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

...

Notes on Nan origin.

I decided to do a bit of work on Old Nan as she's always interested me.

I've noticed on rereads her hatred for the Wildlings seems quite strong ...
My thoughts are that she is of the North ... I'm going with The Umbers from Last hearth.

...

ASOS BRAN III:

"They were afraid of the wildlings," said Bran. "Wildlings come over the Wall or through the mountains, to raid and steal and carry off women. If they catch you, they make your skull into a cup to drink blood, Old Nan used to say.

...

We know that Umber lands are raided etc. and have been since the dawn of days, which means it's likely more girls have been stolen throughout the past as well as gold, animals etc.,but we know of a particular case which has left a sour taste in the mouths of the Umbers which involves the stealing of a girl.
The daughter of Mors 'Crowfood' Umber was stolen by Wildlings in or very close to 270AC.

...

Next I'll check out a comparison with Wildlings and Umbers that is noticeable in the books, concerning skulls as drinking cups:

ADWD JON IV:

""Half of them, and only if I meet this Crowfood's price," said Stannis, in an irritated tone. "He wants Mance Rayder's skull for a drinking cup, and he wants a pardon for his brother, who has ridden south to join Bolton. Whoresbane, he's called."

"The few who live that long. If Stannis placed the free folk in the van, most would perish quickly. "Drinking from Mance Rayder's skull may give Mors Umber pleasure, but seeing wildlings cross his lands will not. The free folk have been raiding the Umbers since the Dawn of Days, crossing the Bay of Seals for gold and sheep and women. One of those carried off was Crowfood's daughter. Your Grace, leave the wildlings here. Taking them will only serve to turn my lord father's bannermen against you."

ASOS BRAN III:

"They were afraid of the wildlings," said Bran. "Wildlings come over the Wall or through the mountains, to raid and steal and carry off women. If they catch you, they make your skull into a cup to drink blood, Old Nan used to say."

Is it possible an Umber once killed by Wildlings had his skull made into a drinking cup and the Umbers got wind of the boast and want to return the insult? 

Let's look at another quote next. This one shows Nan telling the Stark children about the Umbers. We are used to Nan telling the kids about stories of legend and myths etc but this seems like a familiar way you would tell people of your kin in a funny way.

ACOK BRAN II:

"The next day two of them came together to audience; the Greatjon's uncles, blustery men in the winter of their days with beards as white as the bearskin cloaks they wore. A crow had once taken Mors for dead and pecked out his eye, so he wore a chunk of dragonglass in its stead. As Old Nan told the tale, he'd grabbed the crow in his fist and bitten its head off, so they named him Crowfood. She would never tell Bran why his gaunt brother Hother was called Whoresbane."

...

Here's a few extras to throw on top:

Hodor is referred to as a giant.
The Umbers are massive men, and their sigil is a roaring giant in shattered chains, also, here's a wee quote that mentions Hodor and the GreatJon together:

"And when Lord Umber, who was called the Greatjon by his men and stood as tall as Hodor and twice as wide,"

So great! I live for this kind of analysis, especially when it can show me something completely new. Thank you! I think you've picked up on the kinds of tiny clues GRRM likes to leave to tell us the stories within the story, and your reading of them is spot on. You've made my day - probably my week, actually. And I think you underestimate yourself by saying that this doesn't have massive bearing on the story. (Although a massive bear would be a Mormont connection, wouldn't it?)

Umbers

Through discussion on the "Six pups in the snow" direwolf re-read, I came to believe that the Umbers are the personification of The North. Great Jon is particularly symbolic, I think, because he becomes Robb's "Hand" and unshakably loyal bannerman after Grey Wind bites off a couple of his fingers. (Compare to finger-losing Davos and his connection to Stannis, Qhorin Halfhand and his sacrifice on behalf of Jon Snow, etc.) Great Jon is the person who first articulates that the northmen should have their own Stark king but here's the difficulty that has only recently struck me: the chapter in which Great Jon makes this declaration and elevates Robb to King in the North emphasizes over and over and over that Robb was born at Riverrun, that he has Hoster Tully's eyes, that Catelyn has to remind herself that Robb is also Ned's son, etc. When Robb sends his demands to Cersei for the release of Jaime Lannister, one of the conditions is that the sword Ice be returned to Robb at Riverrun. The symbolism is all wrong for Robb as King in the North. Robb never steps foot in the North again after being made King "in" the North.

Your analysis helps to clarify what may be going on with this apparent Umber misstep. Great Jon may embody the north but perhaps, like his uncle who lost an eye to the crow, he doesn't see clearly. We know from Bran's dream that a raven (crow) pecks at your head in order to get you to open your third eye. This would give you greater insight, even magical insight into the past and future. The parable of Crowfood Umber may show us what happens when someone refuses to open his third eye to the point of biting off the crow's head. Beheading is so important in the symbolism of the books - my current favorite example is to compare and contrast, on the one hand, Ned beheading the Night's Watch deserter in the opening chapter, even though that Night's Watch deserter had critically important insight about the threat posed by the White Walkers and, on the other hand, Jeor Mormont forgiving Jon for deserting and telling him that his blood and his direwolf are needed to go beyond the Wall to battle death and to find Benjen Stark. Beheading marks the end of dialogue and communication; Mormont's merciful approach represents a pragmatic and constructive approach to solving a problem that is more important than desertion.

Skulls as drinking cups

So Crowfood Umber biting off the head of the crow is probably directly linked to his desire to make Mance Rayder's head into a drinking cup. Cutting off your enemy's head ends the possibility for dialogue (usually - we'll see what happens with Ser Robert Strong), and your analysis makes it clear that the Umbers and northmen in general have no interest in making peace with the free folk. I haven't put a lot of thought into it, but I understand that there is also a motif around wine as poison. One of your quotes says that the wildlings would drink blood out of the skulls they made into cups but maybe that's the same thing as poison, if there is "bad blood" between you and your enemies.

This line of thought helps to further clarify one of the apparent German wordplay pairs that GRRM (Hey! German and GRRM! Another pun!) incorporates in the books: Gift is the German word for poison, and I was trying to figure out why the big area of land occupied by the small folk of the north would be called The Gift. (I realize that it was given by the Starks at the request of Queen Alysanne, but why not call it "Starkland" or "Northbelt" or "Alysannia"?) I think that the author is trying to say that this region is steeped in poison, for some reason, and the mutual hatred of the north men and the wildlings - the desire to drink blood from the other side's skulls - would explain it. My guess is that the fall of the Wall and the peaceful integration of the north men and the free folk will be a major plot point. And the leaders who can bring it about will have been born in the North - Bran and Sansa Stark and Jon Snow (yeah, I don't think the Tower of Joy was his birthplace).

As we know, the wildlings also hate "Crows" and want to kill them on sight. But Mance was a Crow who became King beyond the Wall, and Jon appears to be about to become a transformed Crow. My guess is that the symbolism points toward these "Crows" helping both the wildlings and the northern bannermen to open their third eyes; to recognize that they have more in common than they have dividing them; to bring down the Wall, in effect.

Also, for what it's worth, Mance makes a point of saying that his wife doesn't wear gems, like a southron woman, she wears amber. Amber and umber seem like an obvious wordplay pair. (She is also strongly associated with white bearskins.) Amber is prehistoric tree sap and it can be burned. Umber is from the earth, and it is a pigment that varies in color depending whether it is raw or burnt. Maybe we will understand more about the eventual integration of these opposing groups of First Men if we can analyze this wordplay pair.

Nan and Hodor as an Umbers

Your insights lead me to a new thought. Maybe Great Jon embodies the land of the North, and Old Nan represents the people of the north? Both have disappeared from view with the rise of the Boltons, as if the north is symbolically being held hostage. I think Lady Hornwood also represented the north, and that her eating of her own fingers was an act of defiance that denied Ramsay Snow her loyalty - the opposite of Grey Wind biting off two of Great Jon Umber's fingers.

Old Nan is very petite. I think GRRM uses the small people in the books to represent the small folk. (Tyrion does not realize that he is the champion of the small folk, but his love for Tysha and his friendships with Bronn and Penny are evidence of this, I think.) So Old Nan's attachment to the Starks and her deep connection to the North could be evidence that she is the representative of the northern small folk among the symbolic characters who eat at Ned Stark's table.

Hodor is a giant or giant-like, as you point out. An Umber connection makes much more sense to me than the widespread assumption that he is somehow a descendant of Ser Duncan the Tall. This may be me looking at everything through the prism (dragonglass?) of puns and wordplay, but what if Hodor represents the reconciliation of the north men and the wildlings? His name is Walder but he is known as Hodor - some kind of door, right? Earlier on this thread, I shared my speculation that Hodor was searching for a door at Winterfell, but maybe he's already found it. Maybe he IS the door - he uses his might to open the crypt door at Winterfell when it is blocked by dead bodies after the sack by Ramsay Snow. He helps the Reeds and Bran to get into the murder hole at Queenscrown with a lot of effort. And he carries Bran on his hero's journey to the secret nerve center of the north.

Speaking of doors and poison, a key wildling leader is named Tormund Giantsbane. His name could be broken down into these parts: door mouth giants poison. If the Umber heritage is responsible for Hodor's great size, this name could fit with the analysis of The Gift as a land representing the mutual hatred of wildlings and north men - the wildling leader wants to poison Umber giants. But "door mouth" reminds me of the weirwood under the Night Fort that opens a magical door under the Wall. I have suspected that Tormund symbolically represents the Wall. While the Giantsbane part of his name could be part of the poison motif (specifically aimed at the giant Umbers), his first name gives me hope that he may also represent a way of connecting the two groups. After all, there is informed speculation that Tormund already has a connection to Maege Mormont and her children, showing that there could be a love connection in spite of the differences between the two groups (love may even conquer the differences between species).

To be fair, the Umbers also have a poison guy: Whoresbane. We are specifically not told how he got his name which might mean we are supposed to focus on the symbolic meaning only and not search for an explanation in the plot. On the puns and wordplay thread, I have theorized that there is a pun on the words "whores" and "horse." I am not sure, but I think horses embody power in some way. (Ramsay sets fire to Theon's horse, Smiler, just before taking Theon hostage and torturing him.) Maybe we'll have a clearer sense of how to interpret Whoresbane as the books continue. The fact that he sides with the Boltons leads me to think that he represents the dark side of the north - maybe the idea of being a poisoner or enemy of prostitutes (who are often shown by GRRM to be victimized and exploited) is consistent with the horrific violence Ramsay Snow / Bolton inflicts on women. If so, I suspect there will be an important death for Whoresbane Umber that will be a necessary step in restoring peace and harmony in the North.

If, on the other hand, the name Whoresbane is a reference to horses, this could tie back in to Hodor. Hodor serves as a symbolic horse for Bran, whose heart's desire was to become a knight. If Hodor's nickname is part of the whore / horse / Hodor (whore door?) wordplay, then we have Giantsbane and Whoresbane both directing "poison" at the guy who represents the door between the Gift and Beyond-the-Wall. I love Tormund and I don't want him to die, but I fear that both men and their poison might have to go to reconcile the alienated descendants of the First Men who have been divided by the Wall.

[Another tangent: Sansa is supposed to kill a Giant, and the snow castle scene with Robert Arryn's doll indicates that the giant might be knocking down a wall - opening a door? - at Winterfell. Will Sansa kill Hodor? That would be a twist. Like a doll, Hodor has been controlled by a young boy when Bran skin changes into his mind . . . It might be better if Sansa kills Whoresbane, with the chained giant sigil, who served the man who tortured Jeyne Poole.]

 

[Clegane'sPup]

This is what I know about Nan as related by eight year old Bran POV.

The old woman smiled at him toothlessly. "My stories? No, my little lord, not mine. The stories are, before me and after me, before you too."

She was a very ugly old woman, Bran thought spitefully; shrunken and wrinkled, almost blind, too weak to climb stairs, with only a few wisps of white hair left to cover a mottled pink scalp.

No one really knew how old she was, but his father said she'd been called Old Nan even when he was a boy.

 

She was the oldest person in Winterfell for certain, maybe the oldest person in the Seven Kingdoms.

Nan had come to the castle as a wet nurse for a Brandon Stark whose mother had died birthing him. He had been an older brother of Lord Rickard, Bran's grandfather, or perhaps a younger brother, or a brother to Lord Rickard's father.

Sometimes Old Nan told it one way and sometimes another.

In all the stories the little boy died at three of a summer chill, but Old Nan stayed on at Winterfell with her own children.

She had lost both her sons to the war when King Robert won the throne, and her grandson was killed on the walls of Pyke during Balon Greyjoy's rebellion.

Her daughters had long ago married and moved away and died. All that was left of her own blood was Hodor, the simpleminded giant who worked in the stables, but Old Nan just lived on and on, doing her needlework and telling her stories. GoT Bran IV

 

[Macgregor of the North]

On 21 May 2016 at 3:54 PM, Seams said:

So great! I live for this kind of analysis, especially when it can show me something completely new. Thank you! I think you've picked up on the kinds of tiny clues GRRM likes to leave to tell us the stories within the story, and your reading of them is spot on. You've made my day - probably my week, actually. And I think you underestimate yourself by saying that this doesn't have massive bearing on the story. (Although a massive bear would be a Mormont connection, wouldn't it?)

Umbers

Through discussion on the "Six pups in the snow" direwolf re-read, I came to believe that the Umbers are the personification of The North. Great Jon is particularly symbolic, I think, because he becomes Robb's "Hand" and unshakably loyal bannerman after Grey Wind bites off a couple of his fingers. (Compare to finger-losing Davos and his connection to Stannis, Qhorin Halfhand and his sacrifice on behalf of Jon Snow, etc.) Great Jon is the person who first articulates that the northmen should have their own Stark king but here's the difficulty that has only recently struck me: the chapter in which Great Jon makes this declaration and elevates Robb to King in the North emphasizes over and over and over that Robb was born at Riverrun, that he has Hoster Tully's eyes, that Catelyn has to remind herself that Robb is also Ned's son, etc. When Robb sends his demands to Cersei for the release of Jaime Lannister, one of the conditions is that the sword Ice be returned to Robb at Riverrun. The symbolism is all wrong for Robb as King in the North. Robb never steps foot in the North again after being made King "in" the North.

Your analysis helps to clarify what may be going on with this apparent Umber misstep. Great Jon may embody the north but perhaps, like his uncle who lost an eye to the crow, he doesn't see clearly. We know from Bran's dream that a raven (crow) pecks at your head in order to get you to open your third eye. This would give you greater insight, even magical insight into the past and future. The parable of Crowfood Umber may show us what happens when someone refuses to open his third eye to the point of biting off the crow's head. Beheading is so important in the symbolism of the books - my current favorite example is to compare and contrast, on the one hand, Ned beheading the Night's Watch deserter in the opening chapter, even though that Night's Watch deserter had critically important insight about the threat posed by the White Walkers and, on the other hand, Jeor Mormont forgiving Jon for deserting and telling him that his blood and his direwolf are needed to go beyond the Wall to battle death and to find Benjen Stark. Beheading marks the end of dialogue and communication; Mormont's merciful approach represents a pragmatic and constructive approach to solving a problem that is more important than desertion.

Skulls as drinking cups

So Crowfood Umber biting off the head of the crow is probably directly linked to his desire to make Mance Rayder's head into a drinking cup. Cutting off your enemy's head ends the possibility for dialogue (usually - we'll see what happens with Ser Robert Strong), and your analysis makes it clear that the Umbers and northmen in general have no interest in making peace with the free folk. I haven't put a lot of thought into it, but I understand that there is also a motif around wine as poison. One of your quotes says that the wildlings would drink blood out of the skulls they made into cups but maybe that's the same thing as poison, if there is "bad blood" between you and your enemies.

This line of thought helps to further clarify one of the apparent German wordplay pairs that GRRM (Hey! German and GRRM! Another pun!) incorporates in the books: Gift is the German word for poison, and I was trying to figure out why the big area of land occupied by the small folk of the north would be called The Gift. (I realize that it was given by the Starks at the request of Queen Alysanne, but why not call it "Starkland" or "Northbelt" or "Alysannia"?) I think that the author is trying to say that this region is steeped in poison, for some reason, and the mutual hatred of the north men and the wildlings - the desire to drink blood from the other side's skulls - would explain it. My guess is that the fall of the Wall and the peaceful integration of the north men and the free folk will be a major plot point. And the leaders who can bring it about will have been born in the North - Bran and Sansa Stark and Jon Snow (yeah, I don't think the Tower of Joy was his birthplace).

As we know, the wildlings also hate "Crows" and want to kill them on sight. But Mance was a Crow who became King beyond the Wall, and Jon appears to be about to become a transformed Crow. My guess is that the symbolism points toward these "Crows" helping both the wildlings and the northern bannermen to open their third eyes; to recognize that they have more in common than they have dividing them; to bring down the Wall, in effect.

Also, for what it's worth, Mance makes a point of saying that his wife doesn't wear gems, like a southron woman, she wears amber. Amber and umber seem like an obvious wordplay pair. (She is also strongly associated with white bearskins.) Amber is prehistoric tree sap and it can be burned. Umber is from the earth, and it is a pigment that varies in color depending whether it is raw or burnt. Maybe we will understand more about the eventual integration of these opposing groups of First Men if we can analyze this wordplay pair.

Nan and Hodor as an Umbers

Your insights lead me to a new thought. Maybe Great Jon embodies the land of the North, and Old Nan represents the people of the north? Both have disappeared from view with the rise of the Boltons, as if the north is symbolically being held hostage. I think Lady Hornwood also represented the north, and that her eating of her own fingers was an act of defiance that denied Ramsay Snow her loyalty - the opposite of Grey Wind biting off two of Great Jon Umber's fingers.

Old Nan is very petite. I think GRRM uses the small people in the books to represent the small folk. (Tyrion does not realize that he is the champion of the small folk, but his love for Tysha and his friendships with Bronn and Penny are evidence of this, I think.) So Old Nan's attachment to the Starks and her deep connection to the North could be evidence that she is the representative of the northern small folk among the symbolic characters who eat at Ned Stark's table.

Hodor is a giant or giant-like, as you point out. An Umber connection makes much more sense to me than the widespread assumption that he is somehow a descendant of Ser Duncan the Tall. This may be me looking at everything through the prism (dragonglass?) of puns and wordplay, but what if Hodor represents the reconciliation of the north men and the wildlings? His name is Walder but he is known as Hodor - some kind of door, right? Earlier on this thread, I shared my speculation that Hodor was searching for a door at Winterfell, but maybe he's already found it. Maybe he IS the door - he uses his might to open the crypt door at Winterfell when it is blocked by dead bodies after the sack by Ramsay Snow. He helps the Reeds and Bran to get into the murder hole at Queenscrown with a lot of effort. And he carries Bran on his hero's journey to the secret nerve center of the north.

Speaking of doors and poison, a key wildling leader is named Tormund Giantsbane. His name could be broken down into these parts: door mouth giants poison. If the Umber heritage is responsible for Hodor's great size, this name could fit with the analysis of The Gift as a land representing the mutual hatred of wildlings and north men - the wildling leader wants to poison Umber giants. But "door mouth" reminds me of the weirwood under the Night Fort that opens a magical door under the Wall. I have suspected that Tormund symbolically represents the Wall. While the Giantsbane part of his name could be part of the poison motif (specifically aimed at the giant Umbers), his first name gives me hope that he may also represent a way of connecting the two groups. After all, there is informed speculation that Tormund already has a connection to Maege Mormont and her children, showing that there could be a love connection in spite of the differences between the two groups (love may even conquer the differences between species).

To be fair, the Umbers also have a poison guy: Whoresbane. We are specifically not told how he got his name which might mean we are supposed to focus on the symbolic meaning only and not search for an explanation in the plot. On the puns and wordplay thread, I have theorized that there is a pun on the words "whores" and "horse." I am not sure, but I think horses embody power in some way. (Ramsay sets fire to Theon's horse, Smiler, just before taking Theon hostage and torturing him.) Maybe we'll have a clearer sense of how to interpret Whoresbane as the books continue. The fact that he sides with the Boltons leads me to think that he represents the dark side of the north - maybe the idea of being a poisoner or enemy of prostitutes (who are often shown by GRRM to be victimized and exploited) is consistent with the horrific violence Ramsay Snow / Bolton inflicts on women. If so, I suspect there will be an important death for Whoresbane Umber that will be a necessary step in restoring peace and harmony in the North.

If, on the other hand, the name Whoresbane is a reference to horses, this could tie back in to Hodor. Hodor serves as a symbolic horse for Bran, whose heart's desire was to become a knight. If Hodor's nickname is part of the whore / horse / Hodor (whore door?) wordplay, then we have Giantsbane and Whoresbane both directing "poison" at the guy who represents the door between the Gift and Beyond-the-Wall. I love Tormund and I don't want him to die, but I fear that both men and their poison might have to go to reconcile the alienated descendants of the First Men who have been divided by the Wall.

[Another tangent: Sansa is supposed to kill a Giant, and the snow castle scene with Robert Arryn's doll indicates that the giant might be knocking down a wall - opening a door? - at Winterfell. Will Sansa kill Hodor? That would be a twist. Like a doll, Hodor has been controlled by a young boy when Bran skin changes into his mind . . . It might be better if Sansa kills Whoresbane, with the chained giant sigil, who served the man who tortured Jeyne Poole.]

 

Cheers for that Seams, that's a good response. Your analysis is very interesting. Really deep stuff. When you mention Dunc the Tall, that's something I've given loads of thought to, I still think there's a good chance Hodors father could have been Nan and Dunks grandson, which could leave him with Umber blood, and also Dunks blood. I'm not sure though, I still think there's just as much chance GRRM will show us Hodor has no connection to Dunk at all and it is just Brienne who is the descendant. It's something I'll be keeping an eye out for to be revealed. 

When Winds comes out GRRM will hopefully return to his Winterfell Novella plans and Nan will be a part of that story and I believe we will learn more about her then. 

I am actually looking forward to that Novella as much as winds!.

[Macgregor of the North]

On 21 May 2016 at 6:26 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

This is what I know about Nan as related by eight year old Bran POV.

 

The old woman smiled at him toothlessly. "My stories? No, my little lord, not mine. The stories are, before me and after me, before you too."

 

She was a very ugly old woman, Bran thought spitefully; shrunken and wrinkled, almost blind, too weak to climb stairs, with only a few wisps of white hair left to cover a mottled pink scalp.

 

No one really knew how old she was, but his father said she'd been called Old Nan even when he was a boy.

 

 

 

She was the oldest person in Winterfell for certain, maybe the oldest person in the Seven Kingdoms.

 

Nan had come to the castle as a wet nurse for a Brandon Stark whose mother had died birthing him. He had been an older brother of Lord Rickard, Bran's grandfather, or perhaps a younger brother, or a brother to Lord Rickard's father.

 

Sometimes Old Nan told it one way and sometimes another.

 

In all the stories the little boy died at three of a summer chill, but Old Nan stayed on at Winterfell with her own children.

 

She had lost both her sons to the war when King Robert won the throne, and her grandson was killed on the walls of Pyke during Balon Greyjoy's rebellion.

 

Her daughters had long ago married and moved away and died. All that was left of her own blood was Hodor, the simpleminded giant who worked in the stables, but Old Nan just lived on and on, doing her needlework and telling her stories. GoT Bran IV

 

 

 

Yup, we don't get much really info wise but we can figure stuff out ourselves from what we have. 

I think Nan was born in the 190's AC. And could possibly be a couple years older than Maester Aemon. 

Her children we hear about. Sons and daughters, and a grandson and a great grandson(Walder/Hodor).

When we think about the kids, it says both her sons fought and died in Roberts rebellion 282-283AC. If the sons were the children who arrived with her at WF, which I believe could be either a couple years either side of the 210AC mark, then by the time of the war they would be old men if they were small infants on her arrival. It may then be more likely that the children she had when she came to WF were the daughters. 

So if she arrived with daughters, and had her sons later, then who did she have them with? This is an interesting question. The Dunk theories fit in well here I think. He could easily plant a son in her belly during the time D&E go to WF in GRRMS planned Novella. 

Or another theory I had was that if Dunk and Nan had a romantic connection the first time they met, then what if Dunk visits WF later again to see her(or his son?). 

We know Dunk travels north to the wall in 233AC. What if Egg gave him permission to visit WF, and Dunk wants to see if the slender brown haired girl is still there and he sees her again, and possibly sleeps with her leaving her with a son born around 234AC who could then go on to be Hodors fathers father?

There are lots of possibilities, and I personally think the Novellas GRRM still has to publish are gonna be key in answering lots of questions we have in the story regarding people's histories such as Nan. 

[Clegane'sPup]

^ you might be onto something with your idea about Nan.

19 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

There are lots of possibilities, and I personally think the Novellas GRRM still has to publish are gonna be key in answering lots of questions we have in the story regarding people's histories such as Nan. 

I'm going to keep my pessimistic thoughts to myself. 

[Macgregor of the North]

@Seams

I'm not sure if you have saw the latest episode of the show yet so I'll stick the comments in a spoiler box but if you have watched it feel free to open up. 

Spoiler

It seems you were on very much the right track with Hodor and the door references. With it being confirmed Hodor comes from the term hold the door, and an incident involving Hodor and a door. I am a believer like you and some others it is likely involving the WF crypts also. Just like you called it. If it does indeed turn out to be the way it plays out in the books that will be a great catch. 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

5 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

^ you might be onto something with your idea about Nan.

I'm going to keep my pessimistic thoughts to myself. 

Feel free to share any thoughts you ever have CP, pessimistic or no. 

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Damn unlikely. Not because it wouldn't be viable per se, but because it wouldn't be viable in the North. Except during the height of summer or winter, the holdfast would be completely cut off. Anybody coming to, or especially coming from the holdfast would get frostburn from feet to chest. Wet feet alone are a death sentence as soon as the temperature consistently drops below ~10°C, long, long before the lake would be frozen solid and could be crossed that way.

Crossing by boat wouldn't be possible either, due to the lake being partially frozen.

 

Stuff like that works, but it requires either consistently warm climate, or varying tides completely exposing it part of the day. Or the water being level with the causeway, not rising above the bootsoles.

[Seams]

28 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Seams

I'm not sure if you have saw the latest episode of the show yet so I'll stick the comments in a spoiler box but if you have watched it feel free to open up. 

  Reveal hidden contents

It seems you were on very much the right track with Hodor and the door references. With it being confirmed Hodor comes from the term hold the door, and an incident involving Hodor and a door. I am a believer like you and some others it is likely involving the WF crypts also. Just like you called it. If it does indeed turn out to be the way it plays out in the books that will be a great catch. 

 

I'm holding off on Season 6! I saw the title of the episode and enough unavoidable spoilers in the headlines that I think I know where they are going and that the story relates to some of the things I just posted, but it will be months before I know for sure! Argh!

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, Seams said:

I'm holding off on Season 6! I saw the title of the episode and enough unavoidable spoilers in the headlines that I think I know where they are going and that the story relates to some of the things I just posted, but it will be months before I know for sure! Argh!

I have been watching, however, it got spoiled for me before I had seen it which I suppose I was asking for coming on the forum before I had watched it. I will leave this discussion for now though if you are waiting and pick it up again later with ya to save spoiling anything more than the unavoidable headlines and stuff.

[Macgregor of the North]

23 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Damn unlikely. Not because it wouldn't be viable per se, but because it wouldn't be viable in the North. Except during the height of summer or winter, the holdfast would be completely cut off. Anybody coming to, or especially coming from the holdfast would get frostburn from feet to chest. Wet feet alone are a death sentence as soon as the temperature consistently drops below ~10°C, long, long before the lake would be frozen solid and could be crossed that way.

Crossing by boat wouldn't be possible either, due to the lake being partially frozen.

 

Stuff like that works, but it requires either consistently warm climate, or varying tides completely exposing it part of the day. Or the water being level with the causeway, not rising above the bootsoles.

I had to go back to my first post there to see what the hell my question was as this thread has taken quite a few turns since then. 

So do you think it was once level with the water but time has seen the waters rise?

Or is it maybe possible GRRM took the idea from the type of historic references that are in the links John suburbs left earlier in the thread but he simply made a mistake and never took in to account that it wouldn't really work that far North? He has made the odd mistake here and there with other things. 

How do you feel on my thoughts Nan was once a resident of the village at Queenscrown before fleeing Wildlings and seeking refuge with either Mountain clans or Umbers?

The Reeds love a story but have never heard of Queenscrown and don't know it's layouts so it doesn't seem to be a well known layout to the general Northern population. Perhaps could this point to Nan having been there before?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yes, something like that. It's an abandoned village, without people to keep stuff like riverbeds like it should be, those change rather quickly. GRRM rarely makes those mistakes. Especially since the historic references had way, way lower water levels. Nothing beyond ankle-deep, just enough to obscure the path. Not chest-high.

 

As to Old Nan, it isn't impossible. Just very, very unlikely. She got like a full century to gather her stories, compared to the ten years of coherent memory Meera or Jojen could boast. Who live about 1,000 miles further south anyway.