Let's Find the Heroes

[Curled Finger]

TLH’s quest is crucial in the story of humanities’ survival in Westeros.  Research into the identities of TLH’s companions reveals nothing.  Even research into possible candidates based on time and mention became so confused and complicated no hard evidence could be discerned.   I can’t even tell you with absolute confidence where each sword was originally.   Because of our 12 prominent and named Valyrian Steel swords it is clear they are important to the tale.   I fancy there will be a TLH quest re-enactment of sorts.   To recap from our Let’s Find the Swords topic, here are the swords and their current locations:

Oathkeeper       Brienne still has it in the Riverlands

Lady Forlorn       Lyn Corbray still has it in the Vale

Heartsbane        Randyll Tarly has it in Kings Landing

Red Reyne          Still with Dunstan Drumm on Old Wyk

Nightfall               Still with Harras Harlaw on Harlaw

The following swords are not confirmed, but rather strongly believed to be in the following locations:

Blackfyre             To be revealed to or by Aegon in the Stormlands

Widows Wail       1.  In Kings Landing unmanned* there were at least 2 more excellent theories here, but apparently there is an SSM where GRRM says WW is in the Red Keep.

Dark Sister         1. In the cave with Blood Raven

                           2. Hidden somewhere along the Wall

                           3.  Buried in the crypts at Winterfell

Vigilance             1. In the possession of House Hightower

                           2. Possibly repossessed at the 1^st Battle of Tumbleton by unknowns

Longclaw            1.  At Castle Black

The last swords are complete unknowns.   We have no idea who has them or where they are.

Truth                     1.  Ancestral sword of House Rogare in Lys. 

Orphan-Maker  2.  Ancestral sword of House Roxton taken after 10 unidentified men killed Bold Jon at the 2^nd Battle of Tumbleton.

These swords are lost and gone never to return to the story:

Brightroar            The Lannister ancestral sword lost when King Tommen II took it with him to Valyria.   Never recovered.

Lamentation      The Royce ancestral sword destroyed in the storming of the Dragon Pits.

Ice                          The Stark ancestral sword reforged to make Oathkeeper and Widows Wail.

Let’s agree to leave the lost swords alone unless you have a really good but twisted alternative to what happened in the Dragon Pits.  Be prepared to lose a different sword if you do.   Now that we’ve established as best as we possibly can where these swords are or were or may be soon let’s try to figure out who will wield them.  Please keep in mind that these 12 sword wielders will mostly likely all die.   I love Brienne, but have made my peace with her passing with all the nobility, chivalry and honor a true knight will die with.  

Let’s also keep in mind that we don’t actually know what types of sword Vigilance, Truth and Orphan-Maker are.   We have no description (I lie!  OM has a black blade for all the good that does), so they very well could be great swords that only a very strong man could wield.   Then again they could be short long swords that Arya could hurt someone really badly with.  A long sword, which many of these swords are described as could be very long, as much as 4’ long.   A bastard sword requires a grown man to utilize 1 & .5 hands to swing.   Point is many of our swords are made for grown men so choose your women and children to actually be able to maneuver the sword.   Rickon isn’t likely to wield any sword.   He’s just a little boy.   Theon can and did manage to behead an Iron Born captain at Moat Caitlin with a long sword and Jamie is training very hard.   Oh let’s throw Sandor Clegane in there as a wounded warrior turning true knight since we don’t know the extent of his injuries.  Is true knighthood really a prerequisite to carry one of these rare magic swords?   Or is it a matter of fierce bravery and courage?  Skill at arms? Predisposition to magic? Affinity to ice? Stark loyalty? Will any of the companions betray the quest?

Modesty Lannister shared an older topic regarding Valyrian Steel with us.   She makes a compelling argument for dragon bones as a constituent to the making of Valyrian Steel.    Dragon Bone is said to remember, presumably able to hold or return to shape.    I can buy into this supposition 100% as dragon glass, dragon fire and spells are said to aggregate into this peculiar steel.   Outside of Lamentation and Ice I have found no instance of VS sustaining breakage or injury.   The blades themselves are said to range in color from grey to black, rejecting other color.   It’s very interesting that the red in OK and WW held at all.   Did the steel itself remember some bloody sacrifice?   Modesty further elaborated on the blades’ seeming ability to think for themselves.   There is more than 1 way to approach this at the story level.  For me it was the resistance of the red in the making of WW & OK.    Others cite Jon and Brienne’s experiences with LC  & OK seeming to act on their own.  The number is 12 as the swords constantly change to equal 12.   When Brightroar was lost Truth was somehow added to the list.   I believe the 12 swords will “call” to their wielders and draw them together for a final quest.     This may not come down to who we want to die a heroes death or trace back to descendants of the original proprietors of the 10 Westerosi VS swords, (L, LF, LC, OM, BR, I, HB, V, RR & NF) or directly between Targs as DS & BF go. 

For the fun of it, I’ve got 27 potential hero companions on my list and still only have Brienne matched to Oathkeeper.  My potential heroes are on the list due to proximity to a sword, the sword and character’s name or history, the description of the sword or the description of the character.   Hence Brienne.  I expect Meera to hold Dark Sister, Aegon to reveal Blackfyre and Gendry to identify Orphan-Maker soon.  The greatest fly in my swords ointment is Truth.  Theories and mention are few.   Is it in Westeros or is it in Essos?   It must be revealed to complete the magical number of 12 and it will call a hero.   Any ideas how Truth will come to light and whom will ultimately wield it will be awarded bonus points.   I further don’t expect any of these 3 to go on tour with AA & The Lightbringers.  But I do expect them to reveal these swords so someone else can have them. Can’t wait to see how many you can come up with and why.  This is a book discussion.   I do watch the show and have noted mention of the swords throughout the seasons and consider the most recent er acquision to be wish fulfillment.  But let’s leave that version out of this one, OK?  I’ll leave you to it then.   

[YOVMO]

I don't mean to say Dr. Mindbender and Serpentor ...... but ya know

 

Tobho Mott plays the role of Dr. Mindbender and the words play the roles of Alexander the Grear, Ivan the Terrible, Vlad the Impaler, Hannibal, Genghis Kahn, Rasputin, Montezuma, Geronimo and Xanuth Amon-Toth.

 

Serpentor, or the finished product, is played by Lightbringer

 

Also, keep in mind...please, his shop has double doors...one is Ebony and one is wierwood. 

 

Hmmm....are there are strange buildings with lethal assassins that also have double doors like that....in braavos...without faces?

 

Also, Mott has a griffen and a unicorn statue

 

I swear if ASOIAF is just a rehashing of the 5 episode classic "Arise, Serpentor Arise!" I will lose my shit

 

 

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I don't mean to say Dr. Mindbender and Serpentor ...... but ya know

 

Tobho Mott plays the role of Dr. Mindbender and the words play the roles of Alexander the Grear, Ivan the Terrible, Vlad the Impaler, Hannibal, Genghis Kahn, Rasputin, Montezuma, Geronimo and Xanuth Amon-Toth.

 

Serpentor, or the finished product, is played by Lightbringer

 

Also, keep in mind...please, his shop has double doors...one is Ebony and one is wierwood. 

 

Hmmm....are there are strange buildings with lethal assassins that also have double doors like that....in braavos...without faces?

 

Also, Mott has a griffen and a unicorn statue

 

I swear if ASOIAF is just a rehashing of the 5 episode classic "Arise, Serpentor Arise!" I will lose my shit

 

 

Sorry Man, your references are obscure to me.   Is there an answer or suggestion in any of this? 

[YOVMO]

Just now, Curled Finger said:

Sorry Man, your references are obscure to me.   Is there an answer or suggestion in any of this? 

COBRA, the terrorist organization that was against GI Joe, created an emperor to supplant cobra commander by traveling around the world and taking DNA from the most notorious villains and having Dr Mindbender combine them to make one master warrior villain named Serpentor

Tobho mott is a smith who can rework valyrian steel

the faceless men are assassins on bravos 

lightbringer is a mythical sword which requires some special methods of creation and will be wielded by Azor Ahai. 

This would have been so cool if I didn't have to explain it

[Jon's Queen Consort]

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

TLH’s quest

What does in mean? From what I understand  "The Last Hero's quest"?

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Because of our 12 prominent and named Valyrian Steel swords it is clear they are important to the tale

So the Valyrian Steel is the one thing that defies who is a hero and who isn't?

[Curled Finger]

Thanks for elaborating.   This is a continuation of a thread from a few months ago aiding in my ongoing research into the VS swords. I'm not sure where you were going with the comments but if you have a hero to offer or know where any of the truly missing swords are I'd love to hear it.   I'm not dealing with Lightbringer even remotely here.   

[YOVMO]

6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Thanks for elaborating.   This is a continuation of a thread from a few months ago aiding in my ongoing research into the VS swords. I'm not sure where you were going with the comments but if you have a hero to offer or know where any of the truly missing swords are I'd love to hear it.   I'm not dealing with Lightbringer even remotely here.   

Actually I think it is a fascinating topic as is. Just a strange idea

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

What does in mean? From what I understand  "The Last Hero's quest"?

So the Valyrian Steel is the one thing that defies who is a hero and who isn't?

The Last Hero's Quest, yes I'm sorry if the abbreviation was unclear.   I thought it was a commonly held reference.    No, I don't believe the sword defines a hero, but I am hoping to determine the identities of those final 12 companions.   As I've stated, my list includes 27 names, all heroic characters in my opinion.   There is no mention of Valyrian Steel in the 1st quest and I'm curious why the swords appeared when they did and to whom they did.   I'm thinking VS may be the key to ridding Westeros of the Others threat forever, but I'm sure there is some consequence regarding dragons involved in that.   Along those lines I imagine the 1st 12 companions were as interesting and diverse as the next 12 will need to be.   And they will need to be united in the cause.    Hard to imagine that many of these characters uniting to probably die for causes greater than themselves at this point.   You stopped in to read the topic, surely you have some interest in it beyond an abbreviation and the idea that VS defines a hero? 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

There is no mention of Valyrian Steel in the 1st quest

Well there was no Valyria back then. LN1.0 is supposed to have happen 12000 years ago and Valyria was greated 5000-3000 years ago IIRC.

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm thinking VS may be the key to ridding Westeros of the Others threat forever, but I'm sure there is some consequence regarding dragons involved in that.

I never understood why VS should be a key, especially since there was no VS during the first LN.

6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You stopped in to read the topic, surely you have some interest in it beyond an abbreviation and the idea that VS defines a hero? 

I am interesting abou who the LH might be, Bran in my opinion, but as I have said before I don't see why VS is so important.

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Well there was no Valyria back then. LN1.0 is supposed to have happen 12000 years ago and Valyria was greated 5000-3000 years ago IIRC.

I never understood why VS should be a key, especially since there was no VS during the first LN.

I am interesting abou who the LH might be, Bran in my opinion, but as I have said before I don't see why VS is so important.

I suspect Bran is The Last Hero as well.   The VS swords stand out in being named and prized.  They somehow manage to keep adding up to 12 which is why I think Ice was reforged into 2 swords.   It's why I think Truth and Orphan-Maker really are somewhere to be revealed at a later date.  Sam and Jon think VS may be dragonsteel.   Who am I to argue with that?  The names, mention, value and mystery of the VS swords indicate to me that they have some larger role than heirloom or lost relic.   Perhaps I was too specific.   There is no mention of any weapon of note in the tale of TLH.   Though doubtful, I hold a sliver of hope that some of the companions may survive the quest and The Others will be eliminated instead of defeated.   

To the companions, easily 1/3 of my candidates are famous for one thing or another.   The identities of the original companions are lost entirely.   Their participation in this quest is what made them noteworthy.   Could Jamie Lannister shed his reputation as Kingslayer and Oathbreaker to become a hero companion?   Theon or Asha Greyjoy?   How about someone completely anonymous like Hodor?   I don't think they will all be Loras Tyrell types.    They will have to work together to get this job done.   The dynamics of potential personalities alone is fascinating.   

[Seams]

11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Truth                     1.  Ancestral sword of House Rogare in Lys. 

... The greatest fly in my swords ointment is Truth.  Theories and mention are few.   Is it in Westeros or is it in Essos?   It must be revealed to complete the magical number of 12 and it will call a hero.   Any ideas how Truth will come to light and whom will ultimately wield it will be awarded bonus points.      

My disclaimer: I don't necessarily see the Last Hero scenario playing out in a literal way, as outlined in the OP. I think a hero's journey can mean the entire course of that hero's story arc, for instance, so the reliving of the legend is probably already underway in the five books we have; perhaps more than one "Last Hero" is playing out the story, losing friends and a dog. Similarly, I think some of these swords, with their romantic names, are intended to be symbolic; they may not all emerge and be taken in hand by the twelve lost friends. Truth may be something you search for but never find, like Diogenes searching for an honest man.

Having said that, I will share a few tentative ideas about the sword Truth. Starting with background:

First of all, it doesn't seem to be an ancestral sword. The wiki refers to the Rogare Family (they were rich bankers), but doesn't acknowledge them as "House" Rogare. And the sword is carried by Moredo Rogare, who is the younger brother of Larra Rogare, the woman who married Viserys II Targaryen. There is no mention of descendants for Moredo. So the sword may have been in use for only one generation.

Moredo and Larra's uncle married into the royal Martell family of Dorne. So we know that there was a Targ and a Dornish connection for the Rogares, and almost nothing else about them before or after the two generations mentioned. Except, of course, Martell and Targaryen descendants both will carry some Rogare blood in their veins. Aegon IV, would be half Rogare. He legitimized all his illegitimate children and gave one of them the family's ancestral sword, causing the start of the Blackfyre Rebellions. Perhaps this use of the sword Blackfyre to muddy the waters regarding the line of succession is a symbolic way of telling us that the sword that represented Truth was lost at this point. (Aegon the Unworthy = Yeah, Truth gone now.)

The Rogare family was ambitious and older brother Lysaro may have spent the family fortune in pursuit of power, alienating the Lysene Magisters. I am at work and don't have AWOIAF with me, and the Search of Ice and Fire site doesn't seem to work on this computer, so I don't have all the Moredo information handy. The wiki says that Moredo "raised an army against Lys." So this is one of those wordplay situations that GRRM effortlessly engineers, where we see "Truth" (the sword) in conflict with "Lys" (the city state). Of course, Moredo may have chosen the name for his sword. It sounds pretentious and self-righteous when you think of the second son of an ambitious banking family putting on airs about having a named, Valyrian Steel sword, especially with a name like Truth. So maybe the name "Truth" is intended to be ironic.

Did Moredo's army actually go to war against Lys? If so, the sword may have been lost or captured there.

Or did the sword enter the Blackfyre Rebellions with one of Moredo's nephews or a child of a nephew? King Aegon IV was a terrible king, but his brother was Aemon the Dragonknight, who comes up over and over again throughout ASOIAF as one of the ideals of honor and a "True" knight. He seems a likely candidate to have inherited a sword named Truth. But we know that Aemon used the sword Dark Sister, so this is not a match. Would Moredo give the sword to Aemon who passed it along to a son of Daeron II, rumored to be Aemon's son, although he was nominally Aegon IV's heir. Maybe GRRM's point is that "The Truth" was lost somewhere in the tangle of unclear lines of descent and illegitimate children and rumors that entered the Targaryen story in the generations following the Rogare marriage.

Or did the sword go to the Dorne side of the family, descended from Moredo's uncle? There was a lot of conflict initially and, later, alliances and marriages between the Dorne descendants of the Rogare family and the Targaryen descendants. If the sword passed through Dorne, it might have been inherited by one of the Daeron II / Mariah Martell descendants, who married into the Dondarrion, Penrose, Arryn and Dayne families. Or it might have stayed in Dorne.

So that covers some of the literal possibilities for handing down the sword, if it stayed "in the family," and a few of the symbolic possibilities: that "the Truth was lost" as history played out among communities and family members in conflict.

Before I go, though, I have to add my two cents about the sword Ice and the sword Truth. I have noted elsewhere that Catelyn and Robb's conversation at the tomb of the River King, Tristifer, revealed that his nickname was "The Hammer of Justice." I think this represents Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark in one - Robert used a warhammer and Ned administered justice in his first scene. (Robert refused to swing the sword to execute the direwolf, Lady, and Ned had to do it himself.) The message I took from this is that, like the sword Ice, "The Hammer of Justice" had been divided into two weapons at some point, a hammer and Justice.

Furthermore, Ned's sword is called Ice. Which sounds as if Justice may have been split in half again. Maybe GRRM is telling us that each generation of weapon, like each generation of a family, divides and weakens a little bit as the bloodline is diluted. The Targaryens tried to prevent the watering down of their bloodline but, once in awhile, a king married outside the family. Which may bring us back to the Rogares and the sword Truth.

It seems like Truth and Justice should be a pair, in an ideal world. Not only has the Truth been lost, but Justice has been reduced to just Ice. Ned obediently follows the letter of the law, even when common sense tells him that the wrong wolf is being punished or the wrong punishment is being meted out. I think this symbolizes the degradation of the sword's original purpose and reason for existing. Soon, even Ice is gone.

So maybe the Truth will reemerge as a literal sword. Brienne seems like a good candidate to help such a sword come back to light. On the other hand, she already has a named sword.

But I'm thinking the sword performed its symbolic purpose in the stories. And its purpose was to be lost.

[Curled Finger]

@Seams, Good to see you and very nicely done.   Thank you.   Since our last conversations regarding the swords I've given some thought to Truth possibly being hidden in Dorne and I WANT THIS.   Still can't prove it, but I do really like it.   You offering is so nice I will not argue that Truth's purpose is to be lost.   There is a chance that the names, appearance, adornment and location of the swords matter, but I think I will leave it with Summer, literally and figuratively.   I doubt there are many objects, people or places that are not painstakingly considered before being written here.   

Brienne is a fine candidate to wield any of the swords.   I don't think it's by mistake that she is the only character we've seen actually name one.   I hope whomever brings Orphan-Maker back into the story will have enough sense to rename it.   Egad. 

[Seams]

On 6/4/2016 at 1:06 PM, Curled Finger said:

I've given some thought to Truth possibly being hidden in Dorne and I WANT THIS.   Still can't prove it, but I do really like it.   ...  I doubt there are many objects, people or places that are not painstakingly considered before being written here.   

I would love it if you are right. I know the series ending is supposed to be bitter-sweet, but it would be great if the Truth were uncovered as part of the resolution.

And I have to admit, I'm seeing hints that there is something hiding in Dorne. (Ugh. Why did I have an image of myself as Melisandre when I just wrote that?) The first hints I picked up on actually stood out in little throwaway lines in the tv show, and have to do with Shae and Tywin. Given the plot differences between books and show, maybe they don't count at all. (I have not yet watched any of Season 6.)

But I was just considering the lyrics to the song, The Dornishman's Wife. Mance refers to it when Melisandre tells him that he has to help bring "Jon Snow's sister" to reunite with him at the Wall, and they both tacitly acknowledge that this could be a suicide mission for Mance. Songs in ASOIAF usually signal something true, and people who silence singers are usually trying to hide something true. It seems significant that the lyrics to this song were revealed in a Jon Snow POV (ASoS, Chap. 7, Jon I).

What is it that the dying man found so satisfying in his taste of the Dornishman's wife that it was worth dying for? The blade and the wife sound as if they could be the same thing, actually. (And we have the interesting character of Areo Hotah, a Dornishman by choice, who is married to his ax.) Everyone is singing - the wife, the blade and the dying man. Is the song a metaphor for a warrior's desire to die in combat? Is it foreshadowing of Jon Snow's murder by his "brothers" but happy that he loved Ygritte before he died?

Something hiding in Dorne would be consistent with the "snake in the grass" symbolism of Oberyn and Doran's teamwork. (Doran says he is the grass and Oberyn was the snake.) And the answer might be hidden in the song about the Dornishman's Wife - songs tell the Truth. And the hidden thing might be a blade (masquerading as a wife?).

I hope you are right! As Fox Mulder says, "The truth is out there."

[Curled Finger]

@Seams, you know i'm banging my head looking for Truth and Orphan-Maker.    And I am as guilty as any other of looking for clues in the show--there are Ice, Long Claw, Widow's Wail, Oath Keeper and Heartsbane in the steel as it were then Arya mentions Dark Sister as well.   The swords are a thing in both mediums.   It bothers me that I've caught no mention of Blackfyre, but perhaps it is there and I've missed it.  Either way I'm trying to steer clear of show influence here.   At least, as much as possible.    

I do appreciate your Dornish ideas and will have my eyes peeled during the next re-read for clues there.   Just supposing Truth is in Dorne.   Any idea how or who would reveal it?

[Seams]

On 6/5/2016 at 2:17 PM, Curled Finger said:

Just supposing Truth is in Dorne.   Any idea how or who would reveal it?

I would think Darkstar is a likely candidate. He definitely has a secret or two. He could have a Targ heritage, given his coloring and his attack on the Lannister child, Myrcella. Prince Doran says he is the most dangerous man in Dorne, and that sounds like the way many characters feel about "truth" in the books.

He doesn't seem thrilled with his Dayne heritage, so there must be a stronger tie to his mother's side of the family. I suspected for awhile that he might have a maternal tie to the Tarbecks or Reynes, so his attack on Myrcella may have been a way to avenge the murder of his family by Tywin.

I wonder if it's significant that the Rogare family was a banking family? I have a suspicion that Tywin has been hiding the bankruptcy of the Casterly Rock mines, using Pycelle's alchemy expertise to create fake gold. Maybe Tywin's attack on the Tarbecks and Reynes was actually a pretext to take over their mines. So maybe the "Truth" that will be revealed with the discovery of the sword (if it happens) will be a truth about the false royal dynasty that Tywin has tried to construct through murder and theft.

[Curled Finger]

@Seams, Darkstar!   Didn't see that coming.  TBH,  Gerold Dayne is the black hole of supposition for me.  Sometimes I think he's just good and being set up.   Other times I buy into all the bad PR he gets.   He's an interesting character.  I can't/won't rule him out until I learn what his real agenda is, so yeah, why not?   

Your ideas about Truth do win the bonus points, as we've only ever skirted the possibilities you illustrate above.   Sorry for the very late reply, life got in the way of my hero hunting this week.    

My friend who reads the forum but doesn't post has taken up the swords/heroes cause in finding other startling instances of 12.   Thus far she has come up with some really impressive research.  It's obvious I think the swords will come into play in a game changing way later in the story, but I realize this isn't everyone's cup of tea.   It's very cool to have some support here.   Thanks Seams.