thelittledragonthatcould Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 2 hours ago, Shireen Purratheon said: This also suggests that the area beside the kingsroad is not as barren as we think, even if the evidence kind of disputes that. Being barren is entirely subjective. Robert Baratheons thoughts (and half the royal court he brought with him) on the subject are going to be hugely different to a person who has rarely left the North will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Umber Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 On July 10, 2016 at 9:29 PM, GallowsKnight said: It's the King's road. It's likely any toll would go to him. Unlike the Twins is a privately owned bridge through their land. Most Cailin is a Northern structure existing prior to any Kingsroad. Same for the causeway leading up to it and through it. It's Stark land. It's foolish of the Starks not to maintain it and control access through it. No different than any harbour imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GallowsKnight Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 3 hours ago, Lost Umber said: Most Cailin is a Northern structure existing prior to any Kingsroad. Same for the causeway leading up to it and through it. It's Stark land. It's foolish of the Starks not to maintain it and control access through it. No different than any harbour imo. The King taxes harbour too. Kings love taxing roads and harbours. Sure the Stark could maintain. Possibly even toll it. But the King gets his significant cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Umber Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 49 minutes ago, GallowsKnight said: The King taxes harbour too. Kings love taxing roads and harbours. Sure the Stark could maintain. Possibly even toll it. But the King gets his significant cut. To what degree KL taxes harbours is unknown, but it's logical that they collect incomes from each major house who in turn collect from their vassals. A portion of income from the Twins would go to the Tully's and then to KL My point is that the Starks have a major source of potential income they don't take advantage of. If the importance of Moat Cailin as a defensive point isn't enough incentive to build it up, you'd think it would make sense financially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 1 hour ago, Lost Umber said: My point is that the Starks have a major source of potential income they don't take advantage of. If the importance of Moat Cailin as a defensive point isn't enough incentive to build it up, you'd think it would make sense financially. There have been many Stark Lords/Kings, it is difficult to believe that if rebuilding and maintaining Moat Cailin as a Lordship was going to turn a profit then some bright Stark would have initiated such a project. The fact that it remains a ruin suggests that it simply is not viable. And I'm not just talking Lords, peasants would be farming the nearby lands, but that does not seem the case. "Yes, but our food and supplies are running low, and this is not land we can live off easily. We've been waiting for Lord Manderly, but now that his sons have joined us, we need to march." - Cat AGOT When Victarion reminded them that Balon had commanded him to hold the Moat against the northmen, Ralf Kenning said, "The wolves are broken, lord. What good to win this swamp and lose the isles?" -Victarion AFFC The guard stared at the dead man as if seeing him for the first time. "Him … he drank the water. I had to cut his throat for him, to stop his screaming. Bad belly. You can't drink the water. That's why we got the ale." -Theon ADWD So, given that the lands are pretty poor; Stark lords have to figure out if paying for a full time Garrison (and lets face it, it would need a pretty large one) and shipping food and water there is worth the money they will make by charging incoming and outgoing merchants. And they would then have to figure out if such taxes would be detrimental to the North in encouraging their own merchants and deterring visiting merchants who would already be facing large overheads by making the long journey to and from the North. Rather than assume that every Stark ruler, his advisers and his vassals these last thousand of years or so have all been idiots, unable to grasp this surefire financial jackpot I am willing to believe that some of them have done the math, maybe even attempted to garrison it, in the past and it simply is something that costs more to operate than it would generate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GallowsKnight Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 2 hours ago, Lost Umber said: To what degree KL taxes harbours is unknown, but it's logical that they collect incomes from each major house who in turn collect from their vassals. A portion of income from the Twins would go to the Tully's and then to KL My point is that the Starks have a major source of potential income they don't take advantage of. If the importance of Moat Cailin as a defensive point isn't enough incentive to build it up, you'd think it would make sense financially. Taxes aren't always logical. The book suggests the tax-collectors in White Harbour sent things straight the the King. As windy as he was vast, he began by asking Winterfell to confirm the new customs officers he had appointed for White Harbor. The old ones had been holding back silver for King’s Landing rather than paying it over to the new King in the North. The impression I got about the Twins is that it's not on a major road like the Kingsroad. Which would have some expectation of being patrolled or maintained (mainly bridges) by the Royal Family (though in reality not so much). Rather it is a short cut through his lands using a private bridge his forebears threw up. He likely gives the Tullys the dues from the lands he owns, but pockets a lot of the toll money, because it's a profitable side business. That's why they're so rich. My point is that while it may profitable in the long run to look at something like a toll at moat caitlin, the politics and bureaucracy might be enough of a deterrent in the short term. Why do it when you're already on top of things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frosted King Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 For the same reason why most questionable decisions regarding the north tend to come up. Plot. A Stark lord could ransom any number of thieves with ten years labor on northern fortification projects, rather than a lifetime at a frozen wall. Steal a hundred silvers from a rich merchant, get faced with a life at the wall, or ten years hard service for the Stark in Winterfell. Ten years easy. Drain the swamp in two years, spend the next year settling the ground, and then the next five building the castle. Always crime so there's always workers. There is no reason why an enterprising Stark heir never looked at his inheritance and decided, how could i make it better? But going by the books, there's very little ambition in the northmen, apparently. Why? Cuz plot. If Moat Cailin was on dry good ground, with it's twenty towers and standing forces, it wouldn't have fallen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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