Between Sansa and Daenerys, who would make the better ruling Queen?

[Marcus corvinus]

4 hours ago, Lady Ren said:

I'm not denying the value of genetics, I'm saying human nature is not cruel. 

Wars happen because of a lack of communication and understanding, not because we're all hardwired to want to kill each other. Getting together to stop a common enemy hardly goes against that. And that definitely seems to be where this story is going. Collaboration time. If people understood that the common enemy is their own stupidity then the world would get together and stay that way. 

No one ever acknowledges thier stupidity at all. From their point of view its justice. And such an understanding is problematic because only people of high intellect and knowledge are able to reach such levels of understanding. But as we see, due to birth rates and commercial culture the average world intelligence isn't getting any higher.

[John Doe]

On 26.8.2016 at 9:39 PM, The Pimp that was Promised said:

Dany

Pros

1. She is an excellent general. So far, she is undefeated. Can any other Westori sovereign say the same?

2. She inspires loyalty. Jorah became a double agent for her. The unsullied will never betray her.  Missendai rather serve the Dragon Queen than to return home. Dany got two companies of mercenaries to switch sides. Barry the old crossed a continent to serve her. Etc, etc, etc.. Most people who meet her seem to enjoy serving her. 

3. She is one of the most empathetic and moral nobles. How many Westori nobles would forgo their claim to the Iron Trone to save slaves? People on this board diss her for this very reason. If more people in the US were like Dany, slavery would have been abolished years before the end of the civil war.

4. Dany has the best claim to the Iron Throne  Until the mummer's dragon proved to be the real deal, Dany is the Dragon's heir  

1. Dany... excellent general? She has never lead a battle. She had one smart idea witht he sewers at Mereen, and that could have easily led to the deaths of her best advisors. 

2. Her dragons inspire loyalty. Without them, she would have died. Afterwards she inspired loyalty by freeing the slaves, but she can't do that in Westeros. I'll give you that she is charismatic, but many westerosi rulers are charismatic, and not all of them necessarily make good rulers. 

3. She didn't abandon her claim to free slaves, she is still planning to return to westeros. Moreover, she crucified 163 people, many of them were probably innocent, she burnt Mirii at the stake, who was innocent, and abandonen Astapor completely. After killing every citizen over 12 years in that city. No, she is not among the most empathetic and moral nobles. 

4. She has the best claim if you're a Targaryen supporter, if you're a Baratheon or Blackfyre supporter she doesn't. 

 

So I sort of agree with your point 2, although without her magical dragons and her freed people who have no other choice but to stick with her, she would have died or be with the dosh kaleen now. I agree that her freeing slaves requires empathy, but her morality is still horribly flawed and she doesn't see that serfdom in westeros isn't all that different. However I also think she will be mad.

 

[Drogonthedread]

On 8/26/2016 at 2:35 AM, Marcus corvinus said:

Both Sansa and Dany are actually moving towards the position of queen in tv series and perhaps in the book as well. Its not fanfiction as much as it is legit speculation. But between them who would the better queen. Let's check their pros and cons:

Dany

Cons

1. She has an extreme sense of entitlement. This is owed to lot to viserys's bad parenting. He filled her to brink with tales of Targareyn exceptionalism and how they had a divine right to the throne. This has spoiled her to the point that she thinks that the crown belongs to her and everyone owes her their loyalty. This is shown in her interactions with barristan and jorah where she acted as if they were born to obey her. She does not really consider their circumstances at all first and thinks that starks, baratheons and all rebels are just '' greedy dogs '' who usurped her brother's crown.

2. She's poor at reading the situation. She acts on impulse too often and fails to see the larger picture. She misreads the situation when she crucifies the masters, she misreads when she makes peace with the slavers and marries hizdahr, she misreads it when the refugees come crawling to her door.

3. She's extremely poor as far as strategic thinking is concerned. She leaves Yunkai unsacked, it should be painfully obvious to anyone that these oligarchic slave lords in this mercenary filled continent would come after her. She's played for an utter fool with the offer of marriage to hizdahr and peace with the slavers. There's an ever growing army at my door that keeps growing larger every day; plus an even larger army of volantenes and new ghis are en route as we speak. Shouldn't it be obvious to anyone that the yunkish are just stalling for time?

She just ignores Cleon. She should've at least formed some sort of military alliance with him as he's the only one nearby who has the same enemies as her, no matter how repulsive he is.

She makes no quick effort to build an army through thousands of willing conscripts to prepare in the case of an invasion, which was inevitable and already brewing as she planted olive trees.

4. She's not stern enough. Sure she has a kind heart and all but a ruler has to be hard if he/she is to remain a ruler. She lets plague infected krefugees into her starving city. Doesn't pollute the wells around the city during the retreat and just gives in to to heartbreak at the brutal murders of freedmen and unsullied. Imagine what Tywin lannister, tyrion or even Robert would've done in her place.

5. She knows nothing about westeros.

6. She trusts people too much.

I strongly disagree with most of this ..

1) what is this extreme sense of entitlement you are talking about .

For someone who was raised by viserys she believes that queenship and kingship is to serve people and its their duty and not about power and right...and how many other characters you have seen having the same beliefs... Just a handful of people ..

She has a belief of what exactly varys claims as a best thing in ruler i.e., raised as viewing queenship is their duty and its for the people. .

And what are those instances dany has acted that way with barristan ans jorah ...can you provide the respective quotes ..

The disagreeing with barristan on usurper dogs is not about who claimed throne but how they have killed all her family ..

Barristan is the one who keeps insisting that she has to return to westeros where there will be allies and people flocking towards her ..

Despite what many on the fandom claim ...in the book and in universe daenerys has the strongest claim to westeros.  Robert Ned and people of westeros who drink in her name as rightful queen acknowledges that..so why is she wrong in thinking that..

But she doesn't follishly believe like viserys that everyone will flock to her and step down from throne ..she knows she has to fight for it..

Just show me where she thinks everyone must serve her and how she expects the same put of jorah and barristan ..

 

2) on the otherhand I believed she is very good at reading the situation. 

I will give you she doesn't think about long term consequences and acted on impulses ..

Idont know what bad happened with crucifying ...that is a bad move by dany for sure ..but it was not the reason for the civil war ...its her stand against the slavery that made the civil war ....if it was about crucified then it would have brought up at least once after the event ..

I dont know what she had misread while making the pact with masters and hizdar ...she knows they are not to be trusted and she keeps her army prepared for the sudden attack even though she had just signed the peace treaty ..she successfully ended the harpy's killings and meereen is now united in the war with yunkai and ghiscari and volantis ..its because she read the situation better ..she knew she can't fight enemies within and without out ...and she knows she can't move towards astppor because if she did she would lose meereen and will be left to be slaugtered ..

She knew quentyn came for her dragons and not for her ..she managed to work and alliance and offer him new terms even if she cant marry him..

she was quick to read the situation in astopor and yunaki and meereen..

 

3) again I don't know what you are talking about here ..

Sh was not fooled by slavers ..she knows she can't trust them ..she purposefully asks barristan to keep her army prepared in case of sudden attack ..and counsels about how to get the sellsswords on her side ...right after she had signed the peace with yunkai ..

The only reason meereen is united and facing yunkai in the battle is because of deanerys ..

She warned cleon that it was foul play and he can't win and she knew if she went away from meereen she will lose meereen too and she stayed there and managed to unite the people of meereen and face the outside threat ..

I dont what are you talking about ...she had created mothers man brazen beasts and many more armies and has men trained as knights ..so she was preparing. .

[Drogonthedread]

On 8/26/2016 at 5:02 AM, HouseFossoway said:

One of the reasons that Cersei is considered a terrible ruler is that she doesn't consider the advice from Kevan, Jaime, Genna and Pycelle, and relies on lickspittles. There's a quote from the TV series that Tywin says that goes something along the lines of "Wise kings listen to their advisors until they come of age, and wiser kings continue to listen to them long after."

Sansa and Daenerys are both still very young, so I think they would need advisors to help them rule.

In the books, Sansa will defer to people she trusts on matters she admits she doesn't know about. In the beginning, she doesn't know very much (fault lies with her parents for only teaching her how to be a proper lady), so she's very easily manipulated. But as the series progresses, she learns more, and while she does still listen to people like the Tyrells or Petyr, she does form her own opinion first, and displays initiative in certain matters. She's also beginning to learn who can and can't be trusted. I think that if Sansa were to have good advisors, like a small council composed of Yohn Royce, Jon Snow, Willas Tyrell, etc., she could rule quite effectively, since she would have advice in areas she wasn't as familiar with, and would be able to judge what is good advice vs. bad advice.

Daenerys on the other hand, seems to routinely ignore her advisors, and just go ahead and do what she wants. She only seems to take advice when she doesn't have any ideas herself. If Daenerys arrives in Westeros, ignores every single advisor who comes to her, she will not win, or will become a brutal queen. The one thing she has over Sansa in terms of advisors, is that she is better at choosing them, but that could be attributed to luck not wisdom.

So I think Sansa would be a better Queen.

Another claim that is not in the books.  

Show me where she continously ignored her advisors ..

Its her belief a queen must listen to all of her advisors 

Ifanything she asks all of her council to speak and listen to what all of them has to say and then make a decision..

I can back it up with books..can you 

[Drogonthedread]

I see this thread has been gone the same way as all dany threads go ..

But To answer op's question ..its really simple 

Who is the character which is about her people and ruling and leading them..

Sansa is a survivor ..she was a pawn in other's games and still is ...she may become a player in the future she is already half way through it ..

But dany on the other hand had been pawn .,survivor ., leader .,Queen ,mother ,ruler and a player ,a conqueror...she is charismatic and inspires loyalties from her people and combines many cultural people .made an impact on a whole continent and is about to make in another. .

Compare that with sansa ..sansa is only a part of what dany's characters had done ..survivor and becoming a player ..

Now take Margery other than being born in tyrell ...what hardships had she gone through or achieved on her own without the help of her family or her grandmother. .she is not even that big of a character in the books ...

This question is very easy and the fact there is even debate on this does not surprise me because its about dany.

[Tucu]

16 minutes ago, Drogonthedread said:

I see this thread has been gone the same way as all dany threads go ..

But To answer op's question ..its really simple 

Who is the character which is about her people and ruling and leading them..

Sansa is a survivor ..she was a pawn in other's games and still is ...she may become a player in the future she is already half way through it ..

But dany on the other hand had been pawn .,survivor ., leader .,Queen ,mother ,ruler and a player ,a conqueror...she is charismatic and inspires loyalties from her people and combines many cultural people .made an impact on a whole continent and is about to make in another. .

Compare that with sansa ..sansa is only a part of what dany's characters had done ..survivor and becoming a player ..

Now take Margery other than being born in tyrell ...what hardships had she gone through or achieved on her own without the help of her family or her grandmother. .she is not even that big of a character in the books ...

This question is very easy and the fact there is even debate on this does not surprise me because its about dany.

You don't see her huge errors as a ruler?

In Astapor:

-She kills all the ruling class and the soldiers

-She leaves a weak goverment in charge with almost no army

In Yunkai:

-"Steals" all their slaves and takes no measures to prevent a return to normality (for example taking hostages)

In Meereen:

-She executes 163 random masters, making a peaceful rule impossible

-She rejects the alliance from Astapor against Yunkai that is raising an army.

-She provides no assistance to Astapor after they are attacked by Yunkai.

-When Yunkai sieges Meereen, she signs a peace treaty, demanding children as hostages...that she would never execute.

-She abandons Meereen while the siege is still ongoing.

She is a great conqueror but as a ruler she doesn't even know the basic parts

 

[John Doe]

Margaery hasn't fucked up nearly as bad as Dany and is just a better person morally.

[Kaibaman]

8 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Margaery hasn't fucked up nearly as bad as Dany and is just a better person morally.

Margaery hasn't been tested as a ruler in her own right but rather as a political player vying for power like Littlefinger. Also she has not faced similar circumstances that Dany has. 

[Drogonthedread]

12 minutes ago, Tucu said:

You don't see her huge errors as a ruler?

In Astapor:

-She kills all the ruling class and the soldiers

-She leaves a weak goverment in charge with almost no army

In Yunkai:

-"Steals" all their slaves and takes no measures to prevent a return to normality (for example taking hostages)

In Meereen:

-She executes 163 random masters, making a peaceful rule impossible

-She rejects the alliance from Astapor against Yunkai that is raising an army.

-She provides no assistance to Astapor after they are attacked by Yunkai.

-When Yunkai sieges Meereen, she signs a peace treaty, demanding children as hostages...that she would never execute.

-She abandons Meereen while the siege is still ongoing.

She is a great conqueror but as a ruler she doesn't even know the basic parts

 

Who said she didn't err..

On contrast she learns from those errors.  That's how the ruling works and no Hunan is perfect and dany is not single in this.  

She had gone through such failings and hardships and rulings ...compare that with Margery and sansa ...what they even have done to be compared with dany ..

Both astopor and yunaki was mistake that even dany accepted and hence she tries to stay in meereen ..

1)Again with this claim...where is this given that because of her crucifying the masters is the reason there was no peace ..why it was never brought up again in ADWD ...why does no one like hizdar green grade or yunkish masters make one comment about this action ..

No matter if she had not crucified or not ...masters would never have accepted the peaceful way ..they wanted to have their old ways and dany is stopping them from it..

so slavery was the issue not other things. 

 

2) she rejects the astopoe alliance because she wisely knows that the army Cleon created is a joke and they can't win over the yunkai.. and she wisely advises Cleon to not to engage in battle..but he was foolish ..

She knew if she had left she would have lost meereen too and had no place for her and her peooel and only to be slaughtered by the masters .and she wisely knew that she can't have enemies with in and with out ...so  by making compromises managed to unite the meereen and fight the enemies outside..

Yes she is not there on meereen now ...but its not what she wanted ..and even if she is not there she had kept all her resources at ready beforehand if such attack happens ..

 

 

 

Dany has failed and impact more because she is actually a character and has a large unoact and ruling when compared to  Margery a character who is on sidelines and barely present and not even know single hardships that dany and even sansa went through..

 

[Tucu]

24 minutes ago, Drogonthedread said:

 

Who said she didn't err..

On contrast she learns from those errors.  That's how the ruling works and no Hunan is perfect and dany is not single in this.  

She had gone through such failings and hardships and rulings ...compare that with Margery and sansa ...what they even have done to be compared with dany ..

Both astopor and yunaki was mistake that even dany accepted and hence she tries to stay in meereen ..

1)Again with this claim...where is this given that because of her crucifying the masters is the reason there was no peace ..why it was never brought up again in ADWD ...why does no one like hizdar green grade or yunkish masters make one comment about this action ..

No matter if she had not crucified or not ...masters would never have accepted the peaceful way ..they wanted to have their old ways and dany is stopping them from it..

so slavery was the issue not other things.

2) she rejects the astopoe alliance because she wisely knows that the army Cleon created is a joke and they can't win over the yunkai.. and she wisely advises Cleon to not to engage in battle..but he was foolish ..

She knew if she had left she would have lost meereen too and had no place for her and her peooel and only to be slaughtered by the masters .and she wisely knew that she can't have enemies with in and with out ...so  by making compromises managed to unite the meereen and fight the enemies outside..

Yes she is not there on meereen now ...but its not what she wanted ..and even if she is not there she had kept all her resources at ready beforehand if such attack happens ..

Dany has failed and impact more because she is actually a character and has a large unoact and ruling when compared to  Margery a character who is on sidelines and barely present and not even know single hardships that dany and even sansa went through..

 

She killed those 163 masters after having taken the city; that for sure created her enemies in every single noble house. She never united Meereen; the Sons of the Harpy prepared a trap in the fighting pits; she got lucky that Drogon showed up. She was warned by the Shavepate and Barristan; she ignored them.

The Astapor/Yunkai situation is something that she created and did nothing to prevent it or resolve it.

I am not sure who can you compare her too; she alienated (or killed) the ruling class of all the 3 cities she conquered. No other ruler in the books have done that yet.

[Drogonthedread]

7 minutes ago, Tucu said:

She killed those 163 masters after having taken the city; that for sure created her enemies in every single noble house. She never united Meereen; the Sons of the Harpy prepared a trap in the fighting pits; she got lucky that Drogon showed up. She was warned by the Shavepate and Barristan; she ignored them.

The Astapor/Yunkai situation is something that she created and did nothing to prevent it or resolve it.

I am not sure who can you compare her too; she alienated (or killed) the ruling class of all the 3 cities she conquered. No other ruler in the books have done that yet.

If that's the case then why does yunkai attack her ..she didn't kill any one of the masters from there ..did she ..

Warned what ..all they advised is to kill all the masters and other advised to leave for westeros..

The fact that meereen faces yunkai and winning is due to dany and the steps she had taken ..

Please read the books if you think sons of harpies attacked dany in the pits. 

Even gRRm has agreed with meereenese blot articles . which means even GRRm accepts that she managed to achieve peace. 

And who else is faced with the situations of astopor or have to face 163 children crucified just to taunt and who else has had her soldiers and people brutally murdered in the street by terrorists.

Its so easy to talk about morally better and claim someone as terrible and other better while that someone never has their hands dirty and never faced any hardships and have a family to look after ..

[Little Scribe of Naath]

10 minutes ago, Drogonthedread said:

Even gRRm has agreed with meereenese blot articles . which means even GRRm accepts that she managed to achieve peace. 

Source?

[Tucu]

13 minutes ago, Drogonthedread said:

If that's the case then why does yunkai attack her ..she didn't kill any one of the masters from there ..did she ..

Warned what ..all they advised is to kill all the masters and other advised to leave for westeros..

The fact that meereen faces yunkai and winning is due to dany and the steps she had taken ..

Please read the books if you think sons of harpies attacked dany in the pits. 

Even gRRm has agreed with meereenese blot articles . which means even GRRm accepts that she managed to achieve peace. 

And who else is faced with the situations of astopor or have to face 163 children crucified just to taunt and who else has had her soldiers and people brutally murdered in the street by terrorists.

Its so easy to talk about morally better and claim someone as terrible and other better while that someone never has their hands dirty and never faced any hardships and have a family to look after ..

Are you forgetting the poisoned locust? the peace was fake. Barristan and the Shavepate told her that before the wedding. How could his future husband stop the Sons of the Harpy if he wasn't one of them or had a close relationship with them?

If Meereen is saved it would be thanks to the timely arrival of Tyrion, Victarion and probably the Volantis fleet of slaves that are followers of R'hllor.

Would you call killing 163 random masters "justice"?, that is just rage and vengeance. In Astapor she killed everyone that could mantain order in the city; there was no need for the genocide of the ruling and miltary class.

[Drogonthedread]

3 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Are you forgetting the poisoned locust? the peace was fake. Barristan and the Shavepate told her that before the wedding. How could his future husband stop the Sons of the Harpy if he wasn't one of them or had a close relationship with them?

If Meereen is saved it would be thanks to the timely arrival of Tyrion, Victarion and probably the Volantis fleet of slaves that are followers of R'hllor.

Would you call killing 163 random masters "justice"?, that is just rage and vengeance. In Astapor she killed everyone that could mantain order in the city; there was no need for the genocide of the ruling and miltary class.

they didn't warn something she already doesn't know of...yet the killings stopped and people of meereen fight yunkai and even pit fighters fight in the battle because of dany's compromises and deals .. its called peace making you only make peace with enemies not friends.  

And where it is showed that sons of harpy were behind it .

I called crucification a mistake in my post and it was surely an act of revenge. .which if you read this forum many would think that she just crucified those masters just for the sake of it...there was this podcast where one of the reviewers said show whitewashed dany by having masters crucifying children. I believe its fat pink mast podcast ..

Meereen is already winning.  And because of who the slaves of volantis are going to revolt ..not because of tyrion or victarion or just their rhllor said. ..they will be revolting because of dany ..

I see you just ignored my question ..If crucification of masters is the sole reason for masters not agreeing to peace why yunkai attacked when no one masters were harmed... Why was the matter never brought up again by anyone of them in ADWd..

 

If there was no issue of slavery and her stand against it then there would have been no problem at all with ruling 

Again the peace with meereen was achieved even GRRm has said that ..

13 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Source?

I dont have the link but iam sure you can find it ..

He said something like he is glad that atleast one person understands what's he is trying to do in meereen..

 

[Tucu]

21 minutes ago, Drogonthedread said:

they didn't warn something she already doesn't know of...yet the killings stopped and people of meereen fight yunkai and even pit fighters fight in the battle because of dany's compromises and deals .. its called peace making you only make peace with enemies not friends.  

And where it is showed that sons of harpy were behind it .

I called crucification a mistake in my post and it was surely an act of revenge. .which if you read this forum many would think that she just crucified those masters just for the sake of it...there was this podcast where one of the reviewers said show whitewashed dany by having masters crucifying children. I believe its fat pink mast podcast ..

Meereen is already winning.  And because of who the slaves of volantis are going to revolt ..not because of tyrion or victarion or just their rhllor said. ..they will be revolting because of dany ..

I see you just ignored my question ..If crucification of masters is the sole reason for masters not agreeing to peace why yunkai attacked when no one masters were harmed... Why was the matter never brought up again by anyone of them in ADWd..

 

If there was no issue of slavery and her stand against it then there would have been no problem at all with ruling 

Again the peace with meereen was achieved even GRRm has said that ..

The Sons of the Harpy do not appear in any POV; how do you expect a declaration? Their actions are clear enough.

The execution of the 163 masters is not the only reason of their hate; but this and the genocide of the masters of Astapor is probably suficient.

Meereen is not winning at the end of ADwD. Her enemies are bombarding Meereen with plagued corpses. In TWoW chapters Tyrion and Victarion are key. The Windblown bought by Barristan with empty promises too.

If Dany was a wise ruler, she should have realized that those slaves have a better quality of life that most peasants in Westeros. What is she going to do there? Execute all the nobility and knights?

[Little Scribe of Naath]

1 minute ago, Drogonthedread said:

they didn't warn something she already doesn't know of...yet the killings stopped and people of meereen fight yunkai and even pit fighters fight in the battle because of dany's compromises and deals .. its called peace making you only make peace with enemies not friends.  

And where it is showed that sons of harpy were behind it .

I called crucification a mistake in my post and it was surely an act of revenge. .which if you read this forum many would think that she just crucified those masters just for the sake of it...there was this podcast where one of the reviewers said show whitewashed dany by having masters crucifying children. I believe its fat pink mast podcast ..

Meereen is already winning.  And because of who the slaves of volantis are going to revolt ..not because of tyrion or victarion or just their rhllor said. ..they will be revolting because of dany ..

I see you just ignored my question ..If crucification of masters is the sole reason for masters not agreeing to peace why yunkai attacked when no one masters were harmed... Why was the matter never brought up again by anyone of them in ADWd..

 

If there was no issue of slavery and her stand against it then there would have been no problem at all with ruling 

Again the peace with meereen was achieved even GRRm has said that ..

I dont have the link but iam sure you can find it ..

He said something like he is glad that atleast one person understands what's he is trying to do in meereen..

 

This is what I found:

GRRM said - "He was pleased that someone could get his intentions and difficulties perfectly."

This is what Feldman himself said that GRRM might have agreed with - the general idea expressed in his blog. 

Quote

So, what was the point of Dany’s sojourn in Meereen? Many just dismiss it as wholly filler, without any real purpose at all except to pad out the books. Others think that Dany as a character “regressed,” returning to a state of incompetence, naivete, and passivity. Others think the point was about giving Dany “practice” ruling, so she could make mistakes, and eventually become a better ruler when she reaches Westeros.

Here’s why all these interpretations miss the point: “The human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about.” –George R. R. Martin

Martin has paraphrased this quote from William Faulkner time and time again in interviews, yet many readers haven’t fully internalized it. It means Martin is not interested in merely showing characters “leveling up,” like a video game, progressing from incompetent naif to awesome badass. His main interest is in exploring his characters’ values. And throughout the series, he creates drama by forcing characters to choose between their core values — love vs. duty, honor vs. pragmatism, vows vs. innocent life.

With that in mind, a closer look reveals that Dany’s plotline in Meereen has been very cleverly designed as a series of tests of her values, and one value in particular. Each test is designed to ask — how far will Dany go to make peace and protect innocent life? With nearly every new chapter, Dany is asked to give up something else she wants or desires, for the good of the Meereenese people. The use of her dragons. A share of power in Meereen. Some of her anti-slavery reforms. Her desire for vengeance. Her desire to right every wrong she sees. Her distaste for cultural practices she finds abhorrent. Her sexual autonomy. Her happiness. Her pride. Her chance at Westeros.

Dany’s arc is revealed in how she responds to these tests, and how she tries to balance her moral ideals against her own darker impulses and desires. Part of Dany genuinely does want peace, and wants to sacrifice a great deal to protect innocent life. But another part of her would rather she take what she wants, through fire and blood.

The main drama of the Meereen plotline lies in Dany’s mind and in her choices. On the surface she is struggling with the Meereenese — but her most crucial struggle is with herself. And the outcome of this struggle will have momentous consequences for Westeros.

 

Nowhere is it mentioned that the GRRM agreed with the fact that the peace was real.

[Drogonthedread]

12 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The Sons of the Harpy do not appear in any POV; how do you expect a declaration? Their actions are clear enough.

The execution of the 163 masters is not the only reason of their hate; but this and the genocide of the masters of Astapor is probably suficient.

Meereen is not winning at the end of ADwD. Her enemies are bombarding Meereen with plagued corpses. In TWoW chapters Tyrion and Victarion are key. The Windblown bought by Barristan with empty promises too.

If Dany was a wise ruler, she should have realized that those slaves have a better quality of life that most peasants in Westeros. What is she going to do there? Execute all the nobility and knights?

But we did have masters who had lines right...Why that was never brought up by xaro or hizdar or anyone from yunkai camp again..

Dany is the one who gave orders for barristan to prepare the army and asked quentyn to leave because he is in danger ..just after she signed peace contract ..

Yeah right they had such a better lives ..

Look Ihave no problem in admitting that dany had made many mistakes but if people say the lives where so better of slaves before dany came ...I can't stop laughing at that ..you know how much people die just for making a single unsullied. .Or how many boys and dwarves are fed to bears and lions..

You yourself said that slaves from volantis will revolt... If their lives were so better why they are revoluting ..

 

17 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

This is what I found:

GRRM said - "He was pleased that someone could get his intentions and difficulties perfectly."

This is what Feldman himself said that GRRM might have agreed with - the general idea expressed in his blog. 

 

Nowhere is it mentioned that the GRRM agreed with the fact that the peace was real.

Exactly ...many just brush meereen as boring Or dany as terrible ruler without even focusing on difficulties and hardships that dany has to face ..

When GRRmspeaks about aragorn and his tax policy and how he wanted to show how difficult its eulijg ...he lists all the hardships that surrounds dany and meereen..

 

I didnt say the peace was real ...what i said was she managed to achieve peace with meereenese and had them united against yunkai ...the peace with yunkai was a sham and they were waiting for volantis to arrive..

 

But she was wise enough to distrust the masters and their peace to have her army ready...she didn't just go I signed the peace and they will go away and all will be alright.

I have said what I have to say ...I know this is all the same and iam frankly bored by repeating all this..let's just agree to disagree..

The fact that we speak about only dany ruling shows that only she had done any ruling to either appreciated or condemned in itself answers the OP ..because other contenders never even has anything to rule or lead people like dany has .and with experience comes more maturity ...

So Its really no contest when it comes to queen ..

[Tucu]

3 minutes ago, Drogonthedread said:

But we did have masters who had lines right...Why that was never brought up by xaro or hizdar or anyone from yunkai camp again..

Dany is the one who gave orders for barristan to prepare the army and asked quentyn to leave because he is in danger ..just after she signed peace contract ..

Yeah right they had such a better lives ..

Look Ihave no problem in admitting that dany had made many mistakes but if people say the lives where so better of slaves before dany came ...I can't stop laughing at that ..you know how much people die just for making a single unsullied. .Or how many boys and dwarves are fed to bears and lions..

You yourself said that slaves from volantis will revolt... If their lives were so better why they are revoluting ..

The Astapor slaves probably had a hard life...but they were alive. Astapor is a dead city now; the survivors are dying of disease outside the walls of Meereen.

The slaves in Volantis will revolt because of religious fanatism; the nobles follow different religions.

Meereen would have lost the war if it wasn't for external and random factors (Quentyn&co joining the Windblown, Tyrion arriving and buying the Second Sons, Victarion arriving just in time, the Red Priests influence over the slaves in Volantis)

Dany made enemies of Yunkai, new Ghis, the Meereen nobility, Volantis, Qarth, Tolos, Elyria and Mantarys. Only the Lhazareen remained neutral. She needs to learn if she doesn't want to do the same in Westeros.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

43 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Dany made enemies of Yunkai, new Ghis, the Meereen nobility, Volantis, Qarth, Tolos, Elyria and Mantarys. Only the Lhazareen remained neutral. She needs to learn if she doesn't want to do the same in Westeros.

The major problem I have with Dany is...she doesn't actually seem to have learnt the right lessons out of her time in Meereen. She wanted to rule Meereen so that she could 'train' herself to be a queen, but I don't really see what she actually has learnt there. Remember, thousands of people have died for this training. On the contrary, her final chapter in ADWD ends with an epiphany essentially saying, "I tried one approach, didn't work, so let me go for fire and blood."  

Frankly, she just seems to be doing the same thing as always to me, taking emotional decisions with no real strategic or critical thinking or forethought, which allows her enemies to manipulate her like a harp. She would be eaten alive if she was in Westeros, by even a mediocre player of the Game of Thrones.  I would have been willing to give her the benefit of the doubt if we see her style of thinking and action changing and becoming sharper in ADWD as opposed to before (like Sansa to Alayne,for example), but that's not what happens.

[Britisher]

2 hours ago, Drogonthedread said:

If that's the case then why does yunkai attack her ..she didn't kill any one of the masters from there ..did she ..

Warned what ..all they advised is to kill all the masters and other advised to leave for westeros..

The fact that meereen faces yunkai and winning is due to dany and the steps she had taken ..

Please read the books if you think sons of harpies attacked dany in the pits.

Daenerys' conquest of Slaver's Bay exposes how inconsistent, cruel and naive she is as a politician.

Now I can empathise with Daenerys moral objective of eradicating slavery, but her conquest is entirely ill-thought out to begin with.

Firstly, Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen are all institutionally alike: cities dependent upon the slave trade which are naturally hostile to the Targaryens, governed by slavers. In eradicating the practice of slavery the cities are effectively left with no means of generating wealth - they have no trade to speak of, and Daenerys has no means of supporting the cities development as she has no wealth and no power base.

By invading Slaver's Bay and abolishing the slave trade Daenerys brings with her death, poverty and insecurity. There are many parallels between Daenerys invasion of Slavery's Bay and the US invasion of Iraq in 2003.

So let's review:

In Astapor Daenerys decides to destroy the governing political elite; abolish the slave trade overnight (which is effectively the sole economic activity in the region) and establish a flimsy proxy government with no real army to speak of - creating a huge power vacuum. She subsequently abandons the city resulting in an exodus of former slaves from the city. And "surprisingly" we three coups. Daenerys decides against supporting the new administrations of Astapor, and she also decides to abandon "her children" in Astapor to the whips of Yunkai.

In Yunkai Daenerys again abolishes the slave trade overnight, but chooses to leave the political elite in peace. Unsurprisingly the political elite (who Daenerys leaves in economic ruin) stab her in the back as soon as she departs.

In Meereen Daenerys immediately murders a good chunk of the political elite out of spite (turning them against her instantly); abolishes the slave trade instantly; claims the city as her own (causing a mass boom in the city's population as she populates it with her freedmen despite having no trade/no means of sustaining this population rise) and slowly comes to terms with how awful she is as a political leader (attempting to rectify her mistakes by marrying into the political elite of Meereen and reinstating parts of the slave trade in the attempt of saving the collapsed Meereenese economy).

Unfortunately for Dany her trail is bloody and it's too late: she has left Astapor and Meereen in economic ruin and Astapor in political turmoil resulting in the "Wise Masters" of Yunkai invading Astapor after various coups. Obviously the Wise Masters and various other slave-dependent states turn on Daenerys who will survive thanks to her birth (saved by Victarion and the Red Priests). 

Had Daenerys been left to govern Slaver's Bay on her own she would have created only war, death and poverty - she would lose, her children would be put in chains once more. 

The problem is that Daenerys just doesn't get it: she opts to ignore the institutional frames of Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen, instead applying her own (Westerosi) customs/morals to the situation (again very like the US invasion of Iraq - she creates chaos by supplanting the existing Ghiscari institutions in Slaver's Bay for something radically different rather than implementing change slowly). The Slaver's Bay arc is about (as Little Scribe of Naath puts it) the balancing of morals: for Daenerys to achieve her own goals she must make sacrifices: to protect her children she must raise the whip (and abolish the slave trade gradually). This is symbolically shown when she reigns in Drogon (her child) with a whip in her chapter Daznak's Pit.