Do these Arya passages foreshadow a sexual assault on Sansa and LF's death?

[Bea Noleto]

On 08/09/2016 at 1:36 AM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 

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 He's astoundingly overconfident that everything is going super for him, but seriously did he think he was just going to show up with a daughter out of the blue, no one has ever heard of and make her Lord of the Eyrie's nanny and no one would question it?  

Ned believed in him, even though LF served the Crown (which included Cersei), had almost being killed by Brandon and mocked him to his face.

Catelyn believed that Tyrion would be stupid enough to use his own dagger, a very distintive one, to murder her son. Just because a guy who used to be in love with her, and almost got killed because of her, and was humiliated because of her and that she hadn't meet for 15 years told her. 

LF has been embezzling money from the Crown for how long without anybody noticing? He is used to highborn people being stupid.  

 

 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

@Blue-Eyed Wolf @sweetsunray My mind is officialy blown with this theory! I just finished The Mistery Knight and I see parallels here: Three hedge knights arrive to Whitehall for a wedding and tourney. And one of them, Maynard Plumm, is apparently under glamour. In the TWoW three hedge knights arrive at Gates of the Moon for a tourney nd possible bethrothal. Whitehall is discribed as a white castle, though Gates isn't white it is kind of pre-Eyrie and the first seat of House Arryn. In both events the tourney hosted by a dubious person, who is plotting something.

Probably my comparison could be argued. But if it is really meant as a parallel, something big would be revealed during the tourney or just afterwards. And probably LF would be exposed. And Sandor is the one who witnessed LF's role in Ned's downfall.

Besides that if Byron is indeed Sandor Clegane his kiss of Sansa"s hand would be a nice reference to the "unkiss": inappropriate kiss that never happened vs appropriate kiss that actually happened but totaly neglected from Sansa's side.

[sweetsunray]

30 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

@Blue-Eyed Wolf @sweetsunray My mind is officialy blown with this theory! I just finished The Mistery Knight and I see parallels here: Three hedge knight arrive to Whitehall for a wedding and tourney. And one of them, Maynard Plumm, is apparently under glamour. In the TWoW three hedge knights arrive at Gates of the Moon for a tourney. Whitehall is discribed as a white castle, though Gated isn't white it is kind of pre-Eyrie and the first seat of House Arryn. In both events the tourney hosted by a dubious person, who is plotting something.

Probably my comparison could be argued. But if it really meant as a parallel, something big would be revealed during the tourney or afterwards. And probably LF would be exposed.

Besides that if Byron is indeed Sandor Clegane his kiss of Sansa"s hand would be a nice reference to the "unkiss": inappropriate kiss that never happened vs appropriate kiss that actually happened but totaly neglected from Sansa's side.

Well, Whitehall also connects to my Sansa and the Giants prediction. I predict that an earthquake will cause a powder snow avalanche to come down from the Giant's Lance to destroy the Eyrie, the Gates of the Moon and damage the Bloody Gate, after which the Vale Mountain Clans attack the Bloody Gate, led by the Burned Men with Timett son of Timett being the leader, who is imo Harry's elder cousin (the 4th Waynwood daughter that was abducted by Burned Men), and thus a First Men Arryn.

Whitehall was made from marble from the Eyrie, while the Eyrie is built from Tarth marble. The descriptions of both halls match well, including the weirwood used. And Whitehall was tore down completely and its grounds salted so that nothing grows there anymore.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Whitehall was made from marble from the Eyrie, while the Eyrie is built from Tarth marble. The descriptions of both halls match well, including the weirwood used. And Whitehall was tore down completely and its grounds salted so that nothing grows there anymore.

Do you mean that Eyrie will have the same fate as Whitehall? I though it rather metaphorical: the snow is white, it exposes any trail. Snow can hide anzthing, but also makes things more apparent.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

@Ashes Of Westeros Omg, shut up! I'm dying over here.  Lol now I really need to dig into the D&E series.  If there's one thing I'm learning, tourneys are a treasure trove of symbolism, foreshadowing, and have elements that repeat and parallel.  Remember at the Hand's tourney, LF bet against Sandor and lost.  Plus we have the Ashford tourney parallel of possible suitors, which Dunk in the end won the trial by combat. We have possible parallels with the Harrenhal tourney.  Then we have sweetsunray's theories with Ser Hugh's death, the giant and the mountain.  Now we have your example at the Whitehall tourney, the 3 hedge knights and one being glamoured. I'm just dying! 

And there is precedence for first men magic moving ice and rock with Bran the Builder legends constructing the Wall.  My thoughts also go to the deaths following from an earthquake and avalanche as a type of blood sacrifice for a greater purpose. If Ser Hugh's death = death of House Arryn (the Andal side) that's also the blood of ancient kings before the conquest. Powerful magic potential there to be sure. 

I like that the hand kiss as the appropriate kiss answer to the unkiss. Lol

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Do you mean that Eyrie will have the same fate as Whitehall? I though it rather metaphorical: the snow is white, it exposes any trail. Snow can hide anzthing, but also makes things more apparent.

You can read my prediction Sansa and the Giants by clicking the link in my sig or to my blog: https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2015/11/16/the-trail-of-the-red-stallion-iii/

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

@Ashes Of Westeros Omg, shut up! I'm dying over here.  Lol now I really need to dig into the D&E series.  If there's one thing I'm learning, tourneys are a treasure trove of symbolism, foreshadowing, and have elements that repeat and parallel.  Remember at the Hand's tourney, LF bet against Sandor and lost.  Plus we have the Ashford tourney parallel of possible suitors, which Dunk in the end won the trial by combat. We have possible parallels with the Harrenhal tourney.  Then we have sweetsunray's theories with Ser Hugh's death, the giant and the mountain.  Now we have your example at the Whitehall tourney, the 3 hedge knights and one being glamoured. I'm just dying! 

And there is precedence for first men magic moving ice and rock with Bran the Builder legends constructing the Wall.  My thoughts also go to the deaths following from an earthquake and avalanche as a type of blood sacrifice for a greater purpose. If Ser Hugh's death = death of House Arryn (the Andal side) that's also the blood of ancient kings before the conquest. Powerful magic potential there to be sure. 

I like that the hand kiss as the appropriate kiss answer to the unkiss. Lol

I think you'll have to explore it, gather the evidence, the quotes and write it into an essay. If you do that I'm willing to reference it in my Sansa dn the Giants post as an alternative for those 3.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

@Blue-Eyed Wolf I'm not going into it now! If I start to analyze all the tournees with their banners, symbols and foreshadowing I would have a task for the rest of my life lol!

Back to The Mystery Knoght, the knight under glamour is the one who know thing. The others just joined him for a good cause. I won't try to make any parallels between Sandor and BR (but I'm sure if we try, we find them too!).

[Ashes Of Westeros]

13 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

You can read my prediction Sansa and the Giants by clicking the link in my sig or to my blog: https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2015/11/16/the-trail-of-the-red-stallion-iii/

I read your essay, but I haven't finished the series by this time, so I go though it again.

PS. Are you a theorist of literature by any chance?

[sweetsunray]

Just now, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I read your essay, but I haven't finished the series by this time, so I go though it again.

PS. Are you theorist of literature by any chance?

As in did I study literature in college? Nope, I'm an industrial designer and study physics

[Ashes Of Westeros]

7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

As in did I study literature in college? Nope, I'm an industrial designer and study physics

I stand up and applaud, your knowledge in literature and culture context would put many literature critics to shame

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I think you'll have to explore it, gather the evidence, the quotes and write it into an essay. If you do that I'm willing to reference it in my Sansa dn the Giants post as an alternative for those 3

As if my husband didn't think I was obsessed enough as it is.   Yeah, I would love to take a crack at it.  Would appreciate some feedback along the way if you don't mind.  I haven't done a project like that before.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

On 21.9.2016 at 0:20 AM, Ashes Of Westeros said:

@Blue-Eyed Wolf @sweetsunray My mind is officialy blown with this theory! I just finished The Mistery Knight and I see parallels here: Three hedge knights arrive to Whitehall for a wedding and tourney. And one of them, Maynard Plumm, is apparently under glamour. In the TWoW three hedge knights arrive at Gates of the Moon for a tourney nd possible bethrothal. Whitehall is discribed as a white castle, though Gates isn't white it is kind of pre-Eyrie and the first seat of House Arryn. In both events the tourney hosted by a dubious person, who is plotting something.

If Brienne shows up in the Vale soon, the parallel would be complete. So she would mess things up a little bit as her ancestor Dunk did

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

3 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

If Brienne shows up in the Vale soon, the parallel would be complete. So she would mess things up a little bit as her ancestor Dunk did

That's one possibility.  There's also the theory that the Cleganes and Hodor are descendants of Dunk through Old Nan, who had daughters that moved away, possibly to the Westerlands.  I believe the next D&E book has Dunk positioned to be in Winterfell at the time Nan would be young.  I mean, Sandor just looks like a displaced First Man with his look let alone the height: gray eyes, dark hair, gaunt features, hooked nose.  

[Ashes Of Westeros]

10 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

That's one possibility.  There's also the theory that the Cleganes and Hodor are descendants of Dunk through Old Nan, who had daughters that moved away, possibly to the Westerlands.  I believe the next D&E book has Dunk positioned to be in Winterfell at the time Nan would be young.  I mean, Sandor just looks like a displaced First Man with his look let alone the height: gray eyes, dark hair, gaunt features, hooked nose.  

I read about Hodor, and it was in Bran's visions too. As for Cleganes, I couldn't find any evidences that they could descend from Dunk apart from being so tall. Though Dunk has been roaming around Westeros and could father children everywhere, we don't see him sleeping around in D&E stories (actually we don't see him sleeping with anybody, though he developed some crushes).

Sandor has Northern looks but I think it rather indicates his future loyalties, than his origin. And we don't have any descriptions of Dunk's looks, we only know that he was tall and strong. I got off the thread completely. But even if sandor is somehow related to Dunc, it would still fit my parallel with The Mystery Knight

[sweetsunray]

I think I may have found a quote in the snow castle chapter that links a thieving Sandor to greenseers or related magic.

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Dawn stole into her garden like a thief. The grey of the sky grew lighter still, and the trees and shrubs turned a dark green beneath their stoles of snow. (aSoS, Sansa VII)

Initially the godswood only has colors of white, black and grey. Grey also might have a connection to "greenseers" when you think of the IB ancestor, the Grey King, who sat on a throne of petrified weirwood. @LmL 's Grey King podcast and essay makes strong arguments for the Grey King as a greenseer. Many "grey figures" (minor characters) are often featured with weirwood stuff. Grey Bedwyck (nicknamed Giant) with the NW climbs the weirwood of Whitetree and mentions what he sees when his head sticks out of the red leaves, making them rustle, and stuff like that.

And the first actual color that Sansa sees is green, hence "greenseeing".

This sly greensees reference is combined with "dawn", "stealing" and "thief". The issue is that there are no weirwoods at the Eyrie (or the Vale). The soil at the Eyrie is too stony, too thin, and the Vale was the first area that the Andals invaded and conquered, and the Andals were famous for burning weirwoods. They continued that practice as far as into the Riverlands expansion. So, greenseers might not be able to see in the Vale, and therefore send allies there to be the eyes for them. HR is the sole character we know of at present time to have been at the Isle of the Gods Eye. He truly must have been someone worthy in their eyes to be allowed to reach the island, to stay there and be taught there.

The Thief is a wildling name of a star constellation and Ygritte argues how the best time to "steal" a woman is when the Thief is in the Moonmaid.

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...the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night."(aSoS, Jon III)

The quote from Jon's chapter is followed by the following remark of Jon.

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"I never meant to steal you," he said. "I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat."

 

Who held a knife to Sansa's throat? I only recall Sandor doing that.

So, we have a seeming sly reference to greenseers and a thief, which leads to the man holding a knife at her throat. It does seem as if this might be a cooperative hint between an ally of the Forst Men greenseers and Sandor as a thief.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

7 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

snip

 

Good points! There is still a weirwood in the Eyrie, kind of:  the throne of the Arryns is carved of weirwood. So the Old Gods are still there.

It has been mentioned in several threads that a dagger/sword is often used as a phallic symbol in ASOIAF and often appears in scenes between lovers (actual or hinted): Sansa/Sandor, Jon/Ygrytte, Qarl/Asha etc. The "stealing" theme definitely has a strong erotic connotation especially among the First Men. I couldn't find the quote in the books, I guess it was only in the show, when Arya asked Sandor if he stole something from Joffrey before he left. And he replied "I'm not a thief". But we know the Sandor (who also has the First men looks) was about to "steal" Sansa during the BoBW.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

@Ashes Of Westeros  I think that line may be show only, but Sandor does actually confess to being a "thief" as he lay dying.  So yes, there's definitely the First Men bride stealing connection.    

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 I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have

@sweetsunray  Excellent finds! I'm going to listen to that podcast.  The weirwood throne is very much like the Iron Throne:  a symbol of the conquerors over the conquered, yet still an acknowledgement of the original culture that is still present.  I'm not certain if something made of weirwood still counts as usable in the weirnet, but as you say a powerful enough greenseer may not be as restricted.  I agree that HR is a great contender for being a trusted ally since he was allowed to spend so much time with the green men.  Infiltrating the Eyrie is highly improbable because of the narrow paths and forecastles.  Actually rescuing someone from there would be impossible for the same reasons.  The timing would have to wait until they had descended to the Gates of the Moon for winter.  According to the ASOIAF timeline, Jon meets Ygritte at approximately 9/11 in the year 299.  Sansa leaves the Eyrie at approximately 5/14 in the year 300.  We don't have an exact time frame for how much time has passed between her last chapter in AFFC and the night before the tourney in TWOW, but we have a hint in Robert's hair growth.  I'm actually a hairdresser, so I can vouch this seems accurate.  The first time we see Robert in Catelyn VI, AGOT (roughly 10/2/298), Cat only mentioned Robert's hair is fine and brown, not noting any unusual length for a little boy, so probably at his ears.  We do know Lysa was the one that cut his hair and it had not been cut since her death.  In Alayne II, AFFC, Sansa notes Robert's hair was "as long as any girl's."  From Cat VI, AGOT to this point, it's been approximately 19 months.  Hair on average grows about 1/2" per month, his hair could be as long as 9.5" putting it approximately a few inches past his shoulders.  In TWOW, Sansa says it's halfway down his chest, since he's a very small child, only another 2" inches would be enough to put it there.  So it's very possible about 4 months have passed, placing the timeline about 1 year later from the time Jon met Ygritte.  This is my very ignorant guess on the subject of constellations, but that might mean the Thief is back in the Moon-Maiden at the time of the tourney.  

I also looked further into glamors and Melissandre does explain quite a bit on what makes a really good glamor in Melissandre I, ADWD:

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"The bones help," said Melisandre. "The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming."

And also, a gemstone, like a ruby is also necessary for sustaining the glamor as she gives Mance a ruby to wear on his wrist:

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"The glamor, aye." In the black iron fetter about his wrist, the ruby seemed to pulse. He tapped it with the edge of his blade. The steel made a faint click against the stone. "I feel it when I sleep. Warm against my skin, even through the iron. Soft as a woman's kiss. Your kiss. But sometimes in my dreams it starts to burn, and your lips turn into teeth. Every day I think how easy it would be to pry it out, and every day I don't. Must I wear the bloody bones as well?"

"The spell is made of shadow and suggestion. Men see what they expect to see. The bones are part of that." Was I wrong to spare this one? "If the glamor fails, they will kill you."

From the Mystery Knight, a moonstone is also used in a glamor, by who is most certainly the one-eyed Bloodraven:

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Dunk whirled. Through the rain, all he could make out was a hooded shape and a single pale white eye. It was only when the man came forward that the shadowed face beneath the cowl took on the familiar features of Ser Maynard Plumm, the pale eye no more than the moonstone brooch that pinned his cloak at the shoulder.

Note that rubies and moonstones fit the red and white of weirwoods, though Melissandre would use the ruby for R'hllor.  We don't get to see if Ser Byron is wearing any jewelry, except he is only described as "elegant" which seems to point more towards his styling than his facial appearance.  Somewhere on his elegant person could be a gemstone.

At the Quiet Isle we have both raw materials for a good glamor.  We have Rhaegar's rubies and we have potentially thousands of bones of long dead anonymous soldiers and knights from many wars past.  What better disguises than people that don't actually exist or are long dead?  No one has seen HR since returning home from the ToJ and he's said to have never left Greywater Watch since.  There's not really many people alive now who would recognize HR from those days save maybe Benjen Stark.  With Ser Morgarth, who would know the face of a lower ranking knight from the battle of the Trident who has been secluded on an island where most residents are not permitted to speak?  We know from EB he fought for the Targaryan's during Robert's Rebellion though he plays it off as though he only fought for the side his liege lords supported.  We don't get to know the origins of EB's healing abilities, but there may be another Bloodraven (staunch Targ loyalist) point of contact on the Quiet Isle, if not directly then possibly by sending HR there.  The EB resides in the 2,000 year old Hermit's Hole:

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"A cave with a door?" Ser Hyle said, surprised.

Septon Meribald smiled. "It is called the Hermit's Hole. The first holy man to find his way here lived therein, and worked such wonders that others came to join him. That was two thousand years ago, they say. The door came somewhat later."

Perhaps two thousand years ago the Hermit's Hole had been a damp, dark place, floored with dirt and echoing to the sounds of dripping water, but no longer. The cave that Brienne and her companions entered had been turned into a warm, snug sanctum. Woolen carpets covered the ground, tapestries the walls. Tall beeswax candles gave more than ample light. The furnishings were strange but simple; a long table, a settle, a chest, several tall cases full of books, and chairs. All were made from driftwood, oddly shaped pieces cunningly joined together and polished till they shone a deep gold in the candlelight.

That does coincide with the Andal invasion invasion timeline (according to the maesters) who brought with them the Seven, so the cave of the Hermit's Hole existed before that and it was adopted by the faith of the Seven as a place of miracle work for the holy man that resides there.  This is not that different from ancient Christianity adopting some holy places of pagan peoples and re-branding them as their own.So the brothers that collected there on the Quiet Isle seem to favor mysticism and miracle work of the faith and humble communal living, as opposed to the corrupt and opulent faith in KL, and the violent fundamentalism of the Faith Militant.  I would say Sandor's healing progression from being nearly dead to being able to dig several graves per day counts as fairly fast and successful.  He "dies" in ASOS, Arya XIII at approximately 1/30/300 and Brienne sees the gravedigger in Brienne VI, AFFC at around 4/9/300 with a limp but still able to do hard labor.  So if the tourney is in the autumn of the year 300, Sandor might be totally healed at that rate, making his presence and ability to rescue and/or participate in this tourney plausible.  

      

[Ashes Of Westeros]

@Blue-Eyed Wolf The quote is from ASOS, so yes, he confessed "stealing" the song. The important part of First Men bride stealing is that it is consensual. Sansa's "stealing" hasn't happened because she didn't want to go. But if our assumptions prove correct, this time she would.

Omg, I wish GRRM finishes TWOW soon! There so many things I'm dying to know! *emotional breakdown*

Back to topic. I quickly checked the meanings of gemstones just in case if it could play a role. A moonstone symbolizes the power of mystery, used to protect the travelers. So it totally makes sense for BR to use a moonstone to mask himself as a hedge knight in order to unveil a conspiracy. White moonstone stimulates vision and dream work.

Ruby is a stone of leadership, and the stone of kings (Trags in this case). A ruby is also said to be a settler of disputes, having the power of reconciliation. A ruby is thought to preserve mental and physical health, helps release anger in order for change (Sandor anyone?). It also signifies love and passion.

 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

@Ashes Of Westeros  At that point in time of his confession, he's clearly guilt ridden and full of self-loathing.  In his mind, he's elevated the "stealing" of the song to something extremely damaging that she would probably never want to see him again.  He misinterpreted her closing her eyes during that scene as her being afraid to look at him, hence that poor, old blind dog that Sansa befriends that growls at Marillion and shows up in her bed after an erotic dream.  Which makes it interesting why if Byron is a glamor, he's described the way his is.  Byron looks like someone Sansa would be attracted to as Sandor would remember.  He's tall, blonde, elegant, has all the courtly manners.  Byron just stands out from the other two as he seems tailor-made to get her attention and trust by being the total opposite of Sandor.  The fact that she only gives him the bare minimum of attention shows a huge stride in her evolution of not being so swayed by appearance and empty gestures, even if Byron is just some guy.  Good work on the gemstones.   

I just downloaded the D&E series, so I can do more research into parallels with the events in TMK.  Just glancing at the wiki and a quick search there's a little similarity between BR and Sandor that Egg notes in TMK.  Where BR is missing an eye on the left, Sandor has his intact.  So if at least Shadrich is the agent of BR, then Sandor might be the "eye" meaning he needs to be the one to positively ID Sansa.

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Bloodraven:

He wore his white hair straight and to his shoulders, with the front brushed forward to cover his missing eye [This is the left side, as his good eye and wine-stain birthmark is on the right]  

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Sandor:

The right side of his face was gaunt, with sharp cheekbones and a grey eye beneath a heavy brow. His nose was large and hooked, his hair thin, dark. He wore it long and brushed it sideways, because no hair grew on the other side of that face.

The left side of his face was a ruin

 There's Sandor's coloring of his hair being black and his eyes being grey.  Also there's a little similarity in color choice between the two, plus the olive-green as maybe a nod to a greenseeing / First Men connection.

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Bloodraven (from the wiki):

He typically wore the colors of "blood and smoke", with smoke being a dark grey that was mottled and streaked with black

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Sandor:

He had exchanged his armor for a red woolen tunic with a leather dog's head sewn on the front.

He wore an olive-green cloak over his soot-grey armor. That, and his hound's-head helm, were his only concession to ornament

Sandor's scars are also described specifically as red on black, Targaryen colors.

Quote

is eye was still good, but all around it was a twisted mass of scar, slick black flesh hard as leather, pocked with craters and fissured by deep cracks that gleamed red and wet when he moved

You can also say there's a First Men connection between Sansa and Sandor both being "kissed by fire":  Sansa for her red hair (a parallel to Ygritte, in First Men culture red hair seems to be a lucky sign) and Sandor (unfortunately unlucky) who's disfigurement and Hound persona is born out of fire.    

I'm also working on a side theory on the symbolism of hot spiced/mulled wine when characters are seen drinking it.  Basically, like Arbor Gold on scene indicates a sweet lie that a person willingly believes, I think spiced/mulled wines on scene indicate deception and/or betrayal.  I started from the scene where we meet our 3 hedge knights and they are sharing hot spiced wine with Petyr.  In this case, you have deception on both sides.  It appears again at the meeting of the Lords Declarant, where there's deception everywhere, from Petyr, Lyn Corbray the friend pretending to be a foe, and some of the lords that hint that they know who Alayne really is.  It appears many times at the Night's Watch, Jon is deceived by and betrayed by his brothers, and some brothers perceive Jon as being a betrayer of their vows.  Cercei drinks it in a scene with Jaime where she has been deceiving him about sleeping with other men.  That's just a few examples, but I really need to list every time it's being consumed and by whom to establish a consistent pattern.  So take that with a grain of salt because I'm not sure yet.