Opinions on Theon

[INCBlackbird]

36 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

I agree that given the timeline the psychological effects were probably more pronounced than I realized.  I disagree, however, about your assertion about how quickly people  cave under torture.  I have a fair bit of experience in this and I know of many people who lasted years with the proper training.  It's all a mind game and you must engage in it yourself, the mistake your friends most likely made is the same that most people would: attempting to be John Wayne " I aint gonna tell you nuthin."  That's not the proper way.  Due to clearance issues and sensitive info I can't go into it, so i'll leave it at that.

Having read your last paragraph I do though agree with you about the depth of the psychological torture theon experienced.  Ramsey did, indeed, make himself out to be omnipotent/omniscient, so I think you may be right. 

Unfortunately at the end of the day I simply have some sort of bias against Theon, whether founded in fact or not I can't say.  I am a big Stark fan and he betrayed them so in my head (even if not in reality) it's pretty black and white.  I just don't like 'em, and I doubt I will

I think there might be a difference between being tortured in order to extract information and being tortured simply in order to be broken down. Ramsay didn't want anything from Theon but to break him.

That said, if you just have a bias, that's fine, I think we all like/dislike characters for personal reasons (and therefore have biases) it's normal. It was nice discussing him with you though

[Sullen]

2 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

he has stated many times that he views robb as a brother.  And "member of the family" or not he was still raised well, given access to all the education the stark kids had.  And robb was his best friend, if he truly felt that way it should've been more difficult to betray the Starks and it wasn't.

He viewed Robb as a brother, and Robb reciprocated (though he still let him know what his actual situation was when Theon vexed him), but the rest of the family certainly didn't care a bit for him. Sansa and Arya never thought of him, Jon despises him, Bran shows disdain towards him, Cat is suspicious of him because of his heritage, and Eddard, the one people would call his foster father, simply thought of him as leverage over Balon.

Saying he betrayed Robb, his friend, is fair. Saying he betrayed House Stark is complete bull, he didn't owe anything to House Stark, and House Stark certainly never loved him.

The whole point about him needing to be grateful is also full of crap. He should be grateful because he was taken away from his family (loving mother and uncles, his sister, the friends he had back on Pyke), left under the surveillance of a notoriously cold man in a cold and alien North, and educated in a manner that made sure he would be seen as a complete outsider whenever he finally came back home? I don't think so, and that's not even mentioning the fact that his life was on the line, depending on his father's temper.

[spauldo17]

7 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

I think there might be a difference between being tortured in order to extract information and being tortured simply in order to be broken down. Ramsay didn't want anything from Theon but to break him.

That said, if you just have a bias, that's fine, I think we all like/dislike characters for personal reasons (and therefore have biases) it's normal. It was nice discussing him with you though

Yeah sorry I'm just not ready to be swayed yet.  As logical and well thought out your arguments are, I just can't get over it for some reason.  Though you have swayed me from a 10 hatred to about a 6.... so thanks!

[spauldo17]

7 minutes ago, Sullen said:

He viewed Robb as a brother, and Robb reciprocated (though he still let him know what his actual situation was when Theon vexed him), but the rest of the family certainly didn't care a bit for him. Sansa and Arya never thought of him, Jon despises him, Bran shows disdain towards him, Cat is suspicious of him because of his heritage, and Eddard, the one people would call his foster father, simply thought of him as leverage over Balon.

Saying he betrayed Robb, his friend, is fair. Saying he betrayed House Stark is complete bull, he didn't owe anything to House Stark, and House Stark certainly never loved him.

The whole point about him needing to be grateful is also full of crap. He should be grateful because he was taken away from his family (loving mother and uncles, his sister, the friends he had back on Pyke), left under the surveillance of a notoriously cold man in a cold and alien North, and educated in a manner that made sure he would be seen as a complete outsider whenever he finally came back home? I don't think so, and that's not even mentioning the fact that his life was on the line, depending on his father's temper.

I don't know that I agree with you. I believe he should feel grateful.  Yes he was taken captive but that was very common, a normal part of life not something to resent.  And where some captors constantly reminded their captives that they could be killed at any moment, that wasn't the case with Theon.  He was given everything he could want/need.  Including status when Robb takes over as King in the North.  Robb leans on him heavily as a trusted advisor

[Aedam Targaryen]

6 minutes ago, Sullen said:

He viewed Robb as a brother, and Robb reciprocated (though he still let him know what his actual situation was when Theon vexed him), but the rest of the family certainly didn't care a bit for him. Sansa and Arya never thought of him, Jon despises him, Bran shows disdain towards him, Cat is suspicious of him because of his heritage, and Eddard, the one people would call his foster father, simply thought of him as leverage over Balon.

Saying he betrayed Robb, his friend, is fair. Saying he betrayed House Stark is complete bull, he didn't owe anything to House Stark, and House Stark certainly never loved him.

The whole point about him needing to be grateful is also full of crap. He should be grateful because he was taken away from his family (loving mother and uncles, his sister, the friends he had back on Pyke), left under the surveillance of a notoriously cold man in a cold and alien North, and educated in a manner that made sure he would be seen as a complete outsider whenever he finally came back home? I don't think so, and that's not even mentioning the fact that his life was on the line, depending on his father's temper.

He betrayed Robb, his friend, who was King in the North, and he pledged his sword and fealty to him. (I apologize if this was tv show only, but I'm almost positive it was in the books too) IIRC he gives a big "you're my brother and my king" speech, in front of a lot of other important northern lords. That sounds like betraying House Stark to me. 

[Sullen]

3 minutes ago, Aedam Targaryen said:

He betrayed Robb, his friend, who was King in the North, and he pledged his sword and fealty to him. (I apologize if this was tv show only, but I'm almost positive it was in the books too) IIRC he gives a big "you're my brother and my king" speech, in front of a lot of other important northern lords. That sounds like betraying House Stark to me. 

Him swearing him fealty and telling him he's his brother and his King is show-only.

Theon thought himself as Robb's equal, not his vassal or his servant. The first thing he thinks about in his first chapter is how glad he is to be away from House Stark and their damned Direwolf bannres.

He wasn't given anything he wanted either, he was not given a family OR somewhere to belong.

2 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

I don't know that I agree with you. I believe he should feel grateful.  Yes he was taken captive but that was very common, a normal part of life not something to resent.  And where some captors constantly reminded their captives that they could be killed at any moment, that wasn't the case with Theon.  He was given everything he could want/need.  Including status when Robb takes over as King in the North.  Robb leans on him heavily as a trusted advisor

Should Sansa be grateful to Cersei because she was taken captive and it's a very common part of life? Cersei certainly thought so once Sansa flees. Saying that Theon is not reminded of his condition isn't true either, Lord Stark took him to beheadings along with Robb to teach him the importance of doing what one has to do whereas executions are concerned, do you seriously think Theon didn't realize that whoever Eddard was beheading today could very well be him tomorrow?

Robb leaning on him as an advisor means jackshit. Theon is heir to the Iron Isles, that is considerably more prestigious than a position as a second rate advisor to a rebel King.

[spauldo17]

8 minutes ago, Sullen said:

Him swearing him fealty and telling him he's his brother and his King is show-only.

Theon thought himself as Robb's equal, not his vassal or his servant. The first thing he thinks about in his first chapter is how glad he is to be away from House Stark and their damned Direwolf bannres.

He wasn't given anything he wanted either, he was not given a family OR somewhere to belong.

Should Sansa be grateful to Cersei because she was taken captive and it's a very common part of life? Cersei certainly thought so once Sansa flees. Saying that Theon is not reminded of his condition isn't true either, Lord Stark took him to beheadings along with Robb to teach him the importance of doing what one has to do whereas executions are concerned, do you seriously think Theon didn't realize that whoever Eddard was beheading today could very well be him tomorrow?

Robb leaning on him as an advisor means jackshit. Theon is heir to the Iron Isles, that is considerably more prestigious than a position as a second rate advisor to a rebel King.

Sansa was treated like garbage by Cersei so obviously the situations are different.  Cersei is a cruel person who made sure to let Sansa know it, Ned was not.

Lord Stark took him to beheadings just like his own son, Robb - not to remind him of the looming threat, but to teach him the same lesson he was teaching his son.  That a Lord must do his own dirty work.  If anything that's an argument against your opinion because he took Theon AND Robb.

Robb using him as his right hand man is wholly more significant than the Iron Islands.  I'm not sure if you realize nobody in Westeros cares about the Iron Islands, outside of the Iron Islands.  Besides the Northern lords didn't view Robb as some "rebel king" they viewed him as the one true king.  So being the right hand man of the one true king is indeed a more prestigious position than heir to the iron islands.

[Sullen]

Just now, spauldo17 said:

Sansa was treated like garbage by Cersei so obviously the situations are different.  Cersei is a cruel person who made sure to let Sansa know it, Ned was not.

Ned and Catelyn were cold though, and still treated a scared child as a hostage in an alien culture. He's perfectly justified in being pissed off at House Stark.

1 minute ago, spauldo17 said:

Lord Stark took him to beheadings just like his own son, Robb - not to remind him of the looming threat, but to teach him the same lesson he was teaching his son.  That a Lord must do his own dirty work.  If anything that's an argument against your opinion because he took Theon AND Robb.

Considering the circumstances, I highly disagree. Ned might have not thought of it, but considering how Theon misbehaves while at the execution, his feeling of relief once finally on his way home, and the whole line about feeling a silken noose around his neck for most of his childhood, I think he was very aware of his condition, and taking him to beheadings certainly doesn't help. Catelyn later realizes that Robb never truly realized the reason why Theon was with them though, and that he probably wouldn't be able to go through with the execution should he be put in the situation where Balon would attack.

3 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

Robb using him as his right hand man is wholly more significant than the Iron Islands.  I'm not sure if you realize nobody in Westeros cares about the Iron Islands, outside of the Iron Islands.  Besides the Northern lords didn't view Robb as some "rebel king" they viewed him as the one true king.  So being the right hand man of the one true king is indeed a more prestigious position than heir to the iron islands.

 Right hand man? No, the Blackfish, Catelyn, and most of his stronger lords are given more importance than Theon, despite him being technically above them in the feudal hierarchy. 

Also, people do care about the Isles, otherwise Eddard wouldn't have to keep Theon hostage, and people wouldn't have tried to secure Balon's loyalty once war broke out. Theon was heir to one of the 7 most powerful lords in all of Westeros, you're seriously downplaying the importance of that if you think that being one of the advisors to Robb is better than inheriting a whole region as well as the most powerful fleet in Westeros.

[Cabbageleafbastard]

I've always thought Theon should've committed to the ironborn when he arrives back home. He gets a chance at a new life, but he can't take advantage of it because he is still torn between Stark and Greyjoy. His taking of Winterfell proves his worth as ironborn, and holding the castle satisifies his feelings towards the Starks. Everyone knows he can't hold the castle, but his emotional ties to the Starks won't allow him to leave. Asha had the right of it, when she tells him he should've burned the castle and taken the Starks back to Pyke. Though of course he might've been killed by Euron had this happened. He's paid a heavy price for his alligence, and really is a one of a kind character. You can't help but despise and like him at the same time. I'm not sure if Martin will give him some redemption, and I kinda feel like his arc would be better without it.

[Scorpion92]

I am neutral towards Theon - he did things I hated a lot, and I am biased when it comes to House Stark, but he has paid the price for his mistakes in mh opinion.

I believe Iron Islands will be drowned during upcoming Long Night thanks to moon meteors (LmL's amazing essays should convince you about the nature of Long Night), and ironborn survivors/refugees will follow Theon, their "Moses", as their new leader to "promised land" - Cape Kraken in the North.

Theon is the only story bridge that connects ironborn with mainlanders, in this case, Jon's future kingdom of the North. If Bran is by Jon's side, I can see a scenario where Jon does not execute him for his treason and accepts ironborn as his new citizens of the realm and commands them to man his fleet as there is no one better to do that than ironborn (Davos will bring Braavosi fl. Besides, "what is dead may never die" will instantly click with ironborn once they witness King of Winter and his brother Three Eyed Crow control an army of undead and be protected by ice creatures. But that is discussion for another thread.

In the end, I believe Theon will be the High Priest or Prophet figure of a completely new religion formed after the conclusion of Long Night, which will become the new main religion of Westeros and beyond. It will contain elements of previous religions - "baptising" in the water ritual like with Drowned God; burning people but only dead, not living, like with R'hillor; moral codes of Faith of the Seven; respect and care about forests, trees and everything nature like with Old Gods, etc. You get the gist. I do not expect any of current religions in the story to survive Long Night as they will be exposed as frauds and false, and a new religion will fill this "soul" vacuum. Theon is the future prophet of this religion, I believe.

And since Theon is ironborn after all, he might be spreading and preaching this new religion beyond Westeros as well and travel to lots of devastated places after Long Night and bring them the word of true god. While Theon thinks it is god who talks to him, it will be Three Eyed Crow Bran. Again, separate subject for discussion.

That is what I see for his future. He will be "securing souls" of citizens of the new realm for the new royal dynasty of Westeros - House Stark. Religion is very important to keep citizens in check, and whichever government comes after Long Night cannot ignore it.

[spauldo17]

2 minutes ago, Sullen said:

Ned and Catelyn were cold though, and still treated a scared child as a hostage in an alien culture. He's perfectly justified in being pissed off at House Stark.

Considering the circumstances, I highly disagree. Ned might have not thought of it, but considering how Theon misbehaves while at the execution, his feeling of relief once finally on his way home, and the whole line about feeling a silken noose around his neck for most of his childhood, I think he was very aware of his condition, and taking him to beheadings certainly doesn't help. Catelyn later realizes that Robb never truly realized the reason why Theon was with them though, and that he probably wouldn't be able to go through with the execution should he be put in the situation where Balon would attack.

 Right hand man? No, the Blackfish, Catelyn, and most of his stronger lords are given more importance than Theon, despite him being technically above them in the feudal hierarchy. 

Also, people do care about the Isles, otherwise Eddard wouldn't have to keep Theon hostage, and people wouldn't have tried to secure Balon's loyalty once war broke out. Theon was heir to one of the 7 most powerful lords in all of Westeros, you're seriously downplaying the importance of that if you think that being one of the advisors to Robb is better than inheriting a whole region as well as the most powerful fleet in Westeros.

First off, the fact that you say, "Ned might have not thought of it" proves my point.  You were trying to argue that Ned took him to beheadings to remind him of the threat to Theon, if Ned didn't think of it that way and it was only Theon thinking of it internally, there's nothing Ned could do about that.  Theon can perceive any action to mean anything but that doesn't hold the person responsible.

Maybe Theon wasn't Robb's right hand man but he was a trusted advisor, and he sent him to the Iron Islands to treat on his behalf, which is saying something about the trust between them.

The Iron Islands are little more than a nuisance to the rest of westeros.  You don't have to be a significant house to have one of your children held hostage.  Look at the Freys, they are about as insignificant as it gets but they have kids who are hostages.

[spauldo17]

2 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

 

In the end, I believe Theon will be the High Priest or Prophet figure of a completely new religion formed after the conclusion of Long Night, which will become the new main religion of Westeros and beyond. It will contain elements of previous religions - "baptising" in the water ritual like with Drowned God; burning people but only dead, not living, like with R'hillor; moral codes of Faith of the Seven; respect and care about forests, trees and everything nature like with Old Gods, etc. You get the gist. I do not expect any of current religions in the story to survive Long Night as they will be exposed as frauds and false, and a new religion will fill this "soul" vacuum. Theon is the future prophet of this religion, I believe.

And since Theon is ironborn after all, he might be spreading and preaching this new religion beyond Westeros as well and travel to lots of devastated places after Long Night and bring them the word of true god. While Theon thinks it is god who talks to him, it will be Three Eyed Crow Bran. Again, separate subject for discussion.

 

I'm curious, what basis do you have for that opinion?  Theon isn't an overly religious person, and due to his mental and physical mutilation he isn't in the right state of mind to lead people in anything.  Moreover not many men in that time would want to follow a Eunich

[spauldo17]

8 minutes ago, Sullen said:

Ned and Catelyn were cold though, and still treated a scared child as a hostage in an alien culture. He's perfectly justified in being pissed off at House Stark.

Considering the circumstances, I highly disagree. Ned might have not thought of it, but considering how Theon misbehaves while at the execution, his feeling of relief once finally on his way home, and the whole line about feeling a silken noose around his neck for most of his childhood, I think he was very aware of his condition, and taking him to beheadings certainly doesn't help. Catelyn later realizes that Robb never truly realized the reason why Theon was with them though, and that he probably wouldn't be able to go through with the execution should he be put in the situation where Balon would attack.

 Right hand man? No, the Blackfish, Catelyn, and most of his stronger lords are given more importance than Theon, despite him being technically above them in the feudal hierarchy. 

Also, people do care about the Isles, otherwise Eddard wouldn't have to keep Theon hostage, and people wouldn't have tried to secure Balon's loyalty once war broke out. Theon was heir to one of the 7 most powerful lords in all of Westeros, you're seriously downplaying the importance of that if you think that being one of the advisors to Robb is better than inheriting a whole region as well as the most powerful fleet in Westeros.

And regardless, he betrayed Robb, when he was King in the North, and that is enough for me to say that he betrayed House Stark.  At that time Robb WAS House Stark, so a betrayal of Robb was the same thing as a betrayal of House Stark.

[Sullen]

Just now, spauldo17 said:

First off, the fact that you say, "Ned might have not thought of it" proves my point.  You were trying to argue that Ned took him to beheadings to remind him of the threat to Theon, if Ned didn't think of it that way and it was only Theon thinking of it internally, there's nothing Ned could do about that.  Theon can perceive any action to mean anything but that doesn't hold the person responsible.

Eddard didn't think about Theon enough to realize how bad of an idea that was and how it would distress him. That's neglect.

1 minute ago, spauldo17 said:

Maybe Theon wasn't Robb's right hand man but he was a trusted advisor, and he sent him to the Iron Islands to treat on his behalf, which is saying something about the trust between them.

Not exactly on his behalf, the proposal was just as much Theon's as it was Robb's. Again, they're supposed to be equals, not vassal and liege. The extreme arrogance of Robb treating Theon as something of a messenger is one of the many things that pisses off Balon.

3 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

The Iron Islands are little more than a nuisance to the rest of westeros.  You don't have to be a significant house to have one of your children held hostage.  Look at the Freys, they are about as insignificant as it gets but they have kids who are hostages.

That nuisance required the entire continent to team up together to defeat them 10 years before the start of the series, Stannis's victory over them (when he had way superiour numbers, nonetheless) is the one he prides himself on, and he's supposed to be one of the greatest living commanders. Not only that, but they used to own more land than any other region in Westeros. Even under the Targaryens they were a major thorn in the sides of the continent, managing to defeat Starks and Lannisters both before the Crown had to step in to stop them during Dagon's Rebellion.

Also the Freys, insignificant? I'm not sure you know what "insignificant" means, the Freys are pretty much as significant as it gets without being Lords Paramount.

[No True Knights]

I have never really warmed to his character but I don't hate him either, just pity him, even before he became Reek, as his character is kind of tragic in that he is vain, arrogant, stupid but does not have a real home where he belongs anymore, which leads to him making a lot of bad decisions in an effort to make a name for himself and find something that makes him happy.

I don't feel he betrayed the Starks though as he was a captive, stolen away from his home as a child and never free to leave, no matter how well he may have been treated at Winterfell.

Even Robb only let him return home on his orders in the hope of gaining something from it.

[spauldo17]

1 minute ago, Sullen said:

Eddard didn't think about Theon enough to realize how bad of an idea that was and how it would distress him. That's neglect.

Not exactly on his behalf, the proposal was just as much Theon's as it was Robb's. Again, they're supposed to be equals, not vassal and liege. The extreme arrogance of Robb treating Theon as something of a messenger is one of the many things that pisses off Balon.

That nuisance required the entire continent to team up together to defeat them 10 years before the start of the series, Stannis's victory over them (when he had way superiour numbers, nonetheless) is the one he prides himself on, and he's supposed to be one of the greatest living commanders. Not only that, but they used to own more land than any other region in Westeros. Even under the Targaryens they were a major thorn in the sides of the continent, managing to defeat Starks and Lannisters both before the Crown had to step in to stop them during Dagon's Rebellion.

Also the Freys, insignificant? I'm not sure you know what "insignificant" means, the Freys are pretty much as significant as it gets without being Lords Paramount.

Ned not thinking about how Theon's sensitive feelings could be hurt is not neglect, it's normal.  His job is to be the Lord of Winterfell, not pander to a sensitive child.  People are not responsible for how others perceive their actions, they are responsible for their actions and their intentions.  If Theon perceived it as a threat, that's on Theon.  Maybe he could toughen up a bit.

I'll just remind you that you are talking about the Greyjoys from 10 YEARS BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOKS.  I'm not great with the timeline but quite a bit of time had passed from the beginning of the books to Theon's betrayal so we're talking maybe 15, 20 years ago.  It matters very little what the Iron Islands USED to be, it only matters what they are.  Which is a group of seafaring people who occasionally attack and pillage along the coast and then turn tail and run back to their islands.  That's a nuisance.

And yes the Frays are insignificant. They have a trumped up Lord at the head of the House whom nobody in Westeros respects.  The other houses simply use the Frays as pawn pieces in a bigger game, totally unbeknownst to the Frays.  That's the definition of insignificant.  Their only significance lies in their geographical location, and even that they mismanage.  Their biggest move was breaking guest law and murdering people at a wedding, which wasn't even their idea.

[Scorpion92]

Just now, spauldo17 said:

I'm curious, what basis do you have for that opinion?  Theon isn't an overly religious person, and due to his mental and physical mutilation he isn't in the right state of mind to lead people in anything.  Moreover not many men in that time would want to follow a Eunich

His interactions with Bran through weirwoods as well as his upcoming arc. If Bran is indeed Three Eyed Crow of this story, then that means he has plans for Theon.

As you said, there is no way people like ironborn will follow some eunuch and mutilated man, even though his last name is Greyjoy. I think that Theon, in his broken and weak state of body and mind, will get stronger and more humble after his experience. After all, "what is dead may never die but rises again harder and stronger".

Storywise Theon needs to go back to Iron Islands to cancel the decision of the last Kingsmoot where Euron got elected since he was not present. But no one will listen to him, and rightly so. However, when news of Euron and ironborn defeat reaches the population, they will need a new leader. And Theon will warn everyone of what is about to transpire, but not everyone will listen.

And when Long Night hits them hard and Isles will be drowned, ironborn will turn to someone who actually predicted it. This is how he will get in power - through souls of people he leads.

There is no way Theon cab lead people through battle courage or anything that has to do witn direct military approach. However, he can win people with words and grand speeches if the words have merit, especially since the talent for grandiose speeches runs in his family (Aeron as Drowned God priest, Euron, Asha, etc.).

And he also has strong connection to House Stark. When first time he chose war and attacked the North with ironborn, second time around he will choose peace and get accepted into the North with ironborn.

[spauldo17]

5 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

His interactions with Bran through weirwoods as well as his upcoming arc. If Bran is indeed Three Eyed Crow of this story, then that means he has plans for Theon.

As you said, there is no way people like ironborn will follow some eunuch and mutilated man, even though his last name is Greyjoy. I think that Theon, in his broken and weak state of body and mind, will get stronger and more humble after his experience. After all, "what is dead may never die but rises again harder and stronger".

Storywise Theon needs to go back to Iron Islands to cancel the decision of the last Kingsmoot where Euron got elected since he was not present. But no one will listen to him, and rightly so. However, when news of Euron and ironborn defeat reaches the population, they will need a new leader. And Theon will warn everyone of what is about to transpire, but not everyone will listen.

And when Long Night hits them hard and Isles will be drowned, ironborn will turn to someone who actually predicted it. This is how he will get in power - through souls of people he leads.

There is no way Theon cab lead people through battle courage or anything that has to do witn direct military approach. However, he can win people with words and grand speeches if the words have merit, especially since the talent for grandiose speeches runs in his family (Aeron as Drowned God priest, Euron, Asha, etc.).

And he also has strong connection to House Stark. When first time he chose war and attacked the North with ironborn, second time around he will choose peace and get accepted into the North with ironborn.

I'll be honest, yours is a bold prediction.  I do think it would be a nice story arc for Theon though.  He feels so emasculated and insignificant from his mutilations, and he feels as if he lost his place in his House, so it would be nice to see him gain a position of prominence somewhere. 

I don't know that I believe your theory will happen, but I can tell you I'm rooting for it

[Sullen]

Just now, spauldo17 said:

Ned not thinking about how Theon's sensitive feelings could be hurt is not neglect, it's normal.  His job is to be the Lord of Winterfell, not pander to a sensitive child.  People are not responsible for how others perceive their actions, they are responsible for their actions and their intentions.  If Theon perceived it as a threat, that's on Theon.  Maybe he could toughen up a bit.

Ned's job concerning Theon was to act as a foster father to him and to pacify him, make him more tame, tie him to the mainland so that the Iron Isles are not a threat to the mainland in the future, that's one of the reasons why they took him hostage.

By fucking up his fostering, he doomed himself to getting his homeland pillaged by the Ironborn after his death and after Theon was released. I'd say that's a massive failure at his job.

3 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

I'll just remind you that you are talking about the Greyjoys from 10 YEARS BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOKS.  I'm not great with the timeline but quite a bit of time had passed from the beginning of the books to Theon's betrayal so we're talking maybe 15, 20 years ago.  It matters very little what the Iron Islands USED to be, it only matters what they are.  Which is a group of seafaring people who occasionally attack and pillage along the coast and then turn tail and run back to their islands.  That's a nuisance.

It matters what they could still do.

Hell, by themselves they pretty much entirely overturn the results of the war, that's far from being the insignificant backwater kingdom you pretend their are. And that's not counting what Euron is about to do in the next books, which based on the released Aeron chapter is going to be monumentally significant.

5 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

And yes the Frays are insignificant. They have a trumped up Lord at the head of the House whom nobody in Westeros respects.  The other houses simply use the Frays as pawn pieces in a bigger game, totally unbeknownst to the Frays.  That's the definition of insignificant.  Their only significance lies in their geographical location, and even that they mismanage.  Their biggest move was breaking guest law and murdering people at a wedding, which wasn't even their idea.

Again, just like the Greyjoys, the Freys had the power to decide the outcome of the war, twice over.

If that is insignificant, then again, all of the lords bar the Lords Paramount are insignificant. You could even lump in House Arryn in insignificant as well.

Also, their biggest move was not the Red Wedding, allying with Robb and letting him pass changed the course of the war considerably more than them murdering him at Edmure's marriage. Without Walder letting him pass, Robb's rebellion is over before it has even started, and Robb is most likely taken hostage for the rest of his life. There is no Northern Rebellion, which means the Tyrells might hesitate more before crowning Renly, which means the Lannisters's position is considerably more solid.

[The Lone Rider]

Retrospectively speaking, what should have happened was Balon should have been offed when Theon was on the Islands, after which Kingsmoot would have taken place. That would have been better - Asha's existence in the Ironborn culture doesn't make any sense (their real life counterparts, the Vikings had women in power but were also comparatively more progressive in regards to role of women in society than the ironborn )