A Rose for a Stark

[AlaskanSandman]

In this post id like to point out something i noticed and see if any one has any thoughts into it's meaning towards the books. Ill be looking at two Tourney's, the Knight at hand and their rose gift.

First is Rhaegar at the Tourney of Harrenhal, who wears black armor with red rubies on it (Fire?). He wins the Tourney to gifts a blue rose to Lyanna Stark.

The second is Loras Tyrell at the Tourney of the Hand in K.L., who wears silver armor with blue sapphires on it (Ice?). Who wins and gifts a red rose to Sansa Stark.

Now here it seems to me as though some one from fire and some one from ice, are trying to woo the love of a Stark. Is this a nod back to the ancient days and the myths about Azor Ahai, Garth the Green and the Others? Note that the Tyrells descend from Garth the Green, who may have been the Bloodstone Emperor who turned after discovery of a black stone that fell to Earth and is now the Great Other. A Bloodstone is Green with red flecks on it. There is a Greenstone and a Bloodstone located in the arm of Dorne where this asteroid may have fallen during the Hammer of the Waters. Garth's realm being everything north of the Red Mountains (formerly the Green Mountains ) up to Moat Cailyn, or maybe the Wall?

Rhaegar obviously seems to represent Fire. Targaryens, Dragons, Red Rubies, Fire Magic, etc are all linked. Azor Ahai represented? Child to Garth the Green before his turn? Brandon of the Bloody Blade perhaps? Brandon the Builder? (Maybe they're the same guy in fact?) each fought against the Children of the Forest, The Giants, and the Others. Wielder of the flaming sword light bringer (Dawn?), who's realms were in Dorne? Everything south of the Red Mountains? House Dayne and Starfall? Valyrian features?

Lastly but not leastly, the most intriguing one. The Stark representation and what does it mean? In one case the Stark is given a Blue rose by Fire. Does this mean Lyanna was representing Ice in this case? Later, the Stark is given a Red Rose by the Ice side. So now it seems that the Starks are representing Fire instead of Ice. So what does this mean? Interestingly purple is what you get from the mixing of Red and Blue (Fire and Ice). Which seems to hint towards Valyria, which is the Fire Side. So, are the Starks the original union of Fire and Ice? Maybe at the Pact on the God's Eye? Or are the Valyrians?  Normally i feel as though Starks just represent the original Ice and the Dayne's represent the original Fire. So maybe that's it and the Valyrians are the product of these two Houses coming together? and the current crisis is that these houses must come together again?

I do follow the theory that Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark, but i also think that Daenerys is the child of Rhaegar and Ashara Dayne. Yes i can explain but wont at the moment. 

If im right though, this could be the means by which the resolution is found. Through the child of Dany and Jon, or maybe the prevention of such a union? This is Martin after all who promises a bitter sweet ending. This would be the red, blue and purple sides all coming together finally though. 

I do wonder what it means though that Green split is Yellow (Lannisters?) and Blue. That's for another time probably though? Or is it linked?

Thoughts or opinions or just nay saying cause it's actually nothing?

 

[Springwatch]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

In this post id like to point out something i noticed and see if any one has any thoughts into it's meaning towards the books. Ill be looking at two Tourney's, the Knight at hand and their rose gift.

First is Rhaegar at the Tourney of Harrenhal, who wears black armor with red rubies on it (Fire?). He wins the Tourney to gifts a blue rose to Lyanna Stark.

The second is Loras Tyrell at the Tourney of the Hand in K.L., who wears silver armor with blue sapphires on it (Ice?). Who wins and gifts a red rose to Sansa Stark.

Now here it seems to me as though some one from fire and some one from ice, are trying to woo the love of a Stark....

I have a hazy idea that the rose represents the female characters - therefore, the House of Tyrell, which is most strongly influenced by the women, has the rose as sigil. That rose is consistently golden - Loras is totally out of the pattern with his red and white roses, and blue and silver armour, so I agree he might be representing Ice instead of his family.

Lyanna is a northern rose, a blue rose. This fits really well, as the blue roses are twisted into the shape of a crown, reflecting her destiny with Rhaegar. It could almost be seen as a charm, binding her into the family of Fire.

Sansa is a red rose (and a Roadside Rose, according to Marillion). Red is the colour of fire and blood, and of the weirwood leaves... too many things. But she showed her favour to the ice-coloured knight by accepting his gift - if the parallel with Lyanna holds true, she will join her destiny with the family of Ice. (Hopefully in a good way! )

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If im right though, this could be the means by which the resolution is found. Through the child of Dany and Jon, or maybe the prevention of such a union? This is Martin after all who promises a bitter sweet ending. This would be the red, blue and purple sides all coming together finally though. 

I do wonder what it means though that Green split is Yellow (Lannisters?) and Blue. That's for another time probably though? Or is it linked?

Thoughts or opinions or just nay saying cause it's actually nothing?

I like the idea of blended colours. I'd like it even better if the two parent roses were both women, i.e. the grandmothers, but that's probably too much to hope for.

[AlaskanSandman]

47 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I have a hazy idea that the rose represents the female characters - therefore, the House of Tyrell, which is most strongly influenced by the women, has the rose as sigil. That rose is consistently golden - Loras is totally out of the pattern with his red and white roses, and blue and silver armour, so I agree he might be representing Ice instead of his family.

Lyanna is a northern rose, a blue rose. This fits really well, as the blue roses are twisted into the shape of a crown, reflecting her destiny with Rhaegar. It could almost be seen as a charm, binding her into the family of Fire.

Sansa is a red rose (and a Roadside Rose, according to Marillion). Red is the colour of fire and blood, and of the weirwood leaves... too many things. But she showed her favour to the ice-coloured knight by accepting his gift - if the parallel with Lyanna holds true, she will join her destiny with the family of Ice. (Hopefully in a good way! )

I like the idea of blended colours. I'd like it even better if the two parent roses were both women, i.e. the grandmothers, but that's probably too much to hope for.

The female line seems the more important line in his series so i wouldnt be surprised. On that note, the Tyrells trace back to Garth the Green through there maternal line. So Loras wearing the silver armor and blue sapphires to represent ice works, as maybe Garth's transformation is to Ice/The Great Other? See i think Garth the Green (green eyes, green hair, and green skin) was the Grey King, who was said to turn grey through out his long rule (Grey eyes, grey hair, and grey skin), who was the First King, and possibly even Durran God's Grief. The Grey King is said to have married a mermaid and lived for 1007 years. The only other person to live that long and marry some one who sounds like a mermaid is Durran. Who wed Elenai, daughter of the Sea God and Goddess of the Wind. Renly who wore green armor with antler helm is compared to looking like a god. So just a couple quick links between Durran, Garth and the Grey King. Which all also leads to my idea that Garth became the Great Other. Hence the curse on the Tomb of the Great Barrow. His son, Azor Ahai/ Brandon goes on to fight against his fathers forces and kill his sister wife who i think returns as the Corpse Queen, causing Brandon, now Lord Commander of the Watch to become the Night's King. This fits with the Corpse Queen being a daughter to the Barrow King-First King-Garth the Green, Rose of Red Lake. Or something along those line, still hammering out the narrative exactly which i why im curious others opinions. As what ever happened in the past obviously didn't work and the current story line will have to tackle what will end the Others and the strange winters tied to magic. There is definitely alot of flipped symbolism which makes solving some of this a lil confusing. Some of that i believe to be a reoccurring corruption and or coming together of both sides at different times. Such as in Norse Mythology with the Fire, Ice, and Earth Giants. In Norse mythology though i should add that children born of such unions can still identify to one side and fight for that side. May be at play in the current story too.  

The ultimate goal though is to figure out 1. Why the Others are back, or not really back, but attacking again. 2. How did Dany hatch Dragons where Targaryens before her all failed, which may or may not be tied to how they disappeared. 3. Hows it gonna end, and i dont think in a peace, cause all that does is continue the cycle and keep the season's tied to magic. I think the seasons have to go back to normal, and the magic has to go out of the world possibly for good. Which is why a union between Jon and Dany i question too, unless it's the prevention of this union? Or they have to make this union and kill the baby? Idk. I just dont see it ending with a hero defeating the others or ending in a truce, either way with magic surviving. 

[Springwatch]

On 26/08/2017 at 4:30 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

The female line seems the more important line in his series so i wouldnt be surprised. On that note, the Tyrells trace back to Garth the Green through there maternal line. So Loras wearing the silver armor and blue sapphires to represent ice works, as maybe Garth's transformation is to Ice/The Great Other? <snip>

I don't know much about Garth Greenhand, but it seems to me that everyone in green is going to be one of the 'knights of summer', and no use against the forces of ice. Loras avoids green, so I'm quite optimistic that his story goes on into winter. Was he ever a proper Tyrell rose, or was he just wearing a 'blanket of roses' to be discarded? He chooses forget-me-nots to embellish his armour, which is taking a step away from the family, and there's even something ominous about being the Knight of Flowers, as many pleasant things have a harsh subtext - dances becoming duels, the iron kisses of swords, dangerous smiles, sweet tastes hiding bitterness etc. He might turn out to be a bit of a monster, whether Garth did or not.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 8/27/2017 at 0:49 PM, Springwatch said:

I don't know much about Garth Greenhand, but it seems to me that everyone in green is going to be one of the 'knights of summer', and no use against the forces of ice. Loras avoids green, so I'm quite optimistic that his story goes on into winter. Was he ever a proper Tyrell rose, or was he just wearing a 'blanket of roses' to be discarded? He chooses forget-me-nots to embellish his armour, which is taking a step away from the family, and there's even something ominous about being the Knight of Flowers, as many pleasant things have a harsh subtext - dances becoming duels, the iron kisses of swords, dangerous smiles, sweet tastes hiding bitterness etc. He might turn out to be a bit of a monster, whether Garth did or not.

Garth is the Mythic Ancestor to Houses Gardener/Tyrell, along with Lann the Clever, Bran the Builder, and possibly Durran God's Grief (as stated by TWOIAF). Or he's just a contemporary to them all, though the text does lean  heavily on the first. He is stated as having green skin, eyes, and hair, and may have had antlers as the Green men of the God's Eye seem to represent him, are his descendants or kin? Not sure there but there is a Green King of the God's Eye mentioned during the Age of Heroes. He may have been a god who demanded blood sacrifices and died every autumn to be reborn in the spring. Much and more is mentioned about him and his kids, and he does pop up in AGOT in the appendix, so he's been around since the start and part of the original plot. He is also said to have been the First King of men to lead them across the Arm of Dorne to Westeros.

Moving past that, there are multiple theories online about Garth though. The one i like is the one which theorizes that Garth is part of the Empire of the Dawn, who came to Westeros. Again, many different theories. Some think he did indeed come across the Arm of Dorne and may have been Azor Ahai. I personally like the idea that he and his people (The people who settled the Hightower, and Iron Isle. Stated as different and possibly older than the first men across the Arm of Dorne, TWOIAF) came to Westeros via the Grey King legend. In which he carved the first long ships of weirwoods and landed on the Iron Isle. Flipping the boat over to make the Grey Kings Hall, of Nagga's supposed ribs. In this theory that I and some others believe would state that Garth was the Opal Emperor possibly and that Azor Ahai was actually his son, likely Brandon of the Bloody Blade who founded House Stark through Brandon the Builder. 

All theories involve bridging the multiple legends into a somewhat more coherent narrative , albeit still with huge gaps. It's all in what all clues you've been made aware of, how you take those clues or metaphors and legends and interpret them. 

Definitely a fun rabbit hole to ponder as it may or may not have bearing on the current story. Like the subject of my post maybe a metaphor or parallel to that ancient legend

All that being said, im not sure about Loras him self becoming bad in any way as im not sure he's alive or not after the Siege of Storms End. I think it would possibly come down to which side of Garth Loras identifies with, if Garth is Azor who turned evil, or the Bloodstone Emperor. Being as Loras wears the Silver rather than the Green, may be a sign your right. Interestingly, when asked which characters cut from the show shocked Martin the most was Loras's two older brothers, who Martin says play a huge part to the plot. One is a cripple bookworm who mayyyy just have abilities such as Bran Stark. Speculative but its a theory out there.

[AlaskanSandman]

Not that the books are bound to follow the show. It is interesting though that Jon and Dany are about to hook up and possibly have a child. This, by my theory of who Dany's parents are (Rhaegar and Ashara), would be the Daynes and Starks finally coming together again via the Taragaryens. Is this union what is gonna end the Others? or is this union the thing that's supposed to be prevented? The Starks and Dayne's havn't hooked up in all the history that we know of. We know the Daynes are important, as Ashara and Arthur and his sword Dawn are mentioned repeatedly. We know the Others weren't destroyed last time and that the cycle has continued. Does Jon have to Azor Ahai Dany through the heart to prevent this? Do they have to kill the baby? What dark twist is there for the end?