Part 1. The Blacks and the Greens

[Dorian Martell's son]

13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well what do you speculate about Jaehaerys and Alysanne fighting at the wall with Dragons against Mammoths, Giants, and Wildlings?

They flew north. Dragons need food. A mammoth would be a good meal. A Giant would probably defend their mammoth. A fight would ensue. It seems not only possible but probable. 

[AlaskanSandman]

5 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

They flew north. Dragons need food. A mammoth would be a good meal. A Giant would probably defend their mammoth. A fight would ensue. It seems not only possible but probable. 

No coincidence that this happens to be the same time frame that Bael had his war on the wall? Couldn't be linked to that huh? Something we are actually told that happens. You think that speculation is more probable and likely? This seems contradictory to claims of my speculations 

[AlaskanSandman]

5 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

They flew north. Dragons need food. A mammoth would be a good meal. A Giant would probably defend their mammoth. A fight would ensue. It seems not only possible but probable. 

This is the problem with not linking other known events in the thread that others may not be considering. You may miss stuff other wise.

Also, how are we supposed to resolve any mystery if we only look at things individually and never together. Even the R+L theory requires multiple parts that are all weak and speculative. 

Lyanna was the Kotlt- Never mind that Meera repeatedly refers to him as a male.

Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna- Not a single credible witness, and the only person who knew Rhaegar, Jon Con, doesnt even mention Lyanna.

Rhaegar whispered her name as he was dying- Never mind that Robert crushed his chest with a war hammer and collapsed his lungs. And who the heck spread that stupid tale any ways? Robert?? Ha.

Rhaegar wed for duty and not love and they had a hard time even finding him a marriage. 

Marrying Elia gained him no alliances and angered his father and Tywin. 

Lyanna didn't believe in Love as per Ned Stark.

And idk how many other weak pieces belong to this flimsy theory based no so much on smarts but really, just going with Roberts story more or less. Rhaegar took Lyanna and knocked her up. Yet still, people have taken this weak collection of clues and called it a theory despite it laid right in our laps from the on set. Even if it were true, thats not a theory when we're already told it happened more or less. All your doing is assuming Jon is the Child then. This actually seems more like wishful thinking. Lyanna was a good horse rider so she just has to be the male knight described by Meera to be a male multiple times. Robert says Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna so they have to have a baby and it just has to be Jon. Mean time, we're skipping some clues. 

My theory works on more solid ground than this i think. We are told they fought at the wall, we are told Bael skipped down Jaehaerys kingroad, only made after Barth came on. Then 30 years after this, a war at the wall. Which works with Barth coming on in 59ac and the succession crisis of 92ac being 30 years past that.  I can concede that i may have a few pieces out of place like who exactly Alysanne may have slept with. Or whether she had 1 kid or 2 or whether or not they were twins. But given the succession crisis in the subsequent years, i think it's safe to say that we are looking for unwanted blood in the family line.

I think its fair to speculate as such for both theories or any other people may have and want to explorer. I appreciate that this has a couple parts to it, but no more complicated than trying to figure out Varys or the multitude threads on Jon and Dany (mine included) . Grrm is a great writer, what can i say. 

(Not to start a Jon debate here haha just using an example of a really popular theory that people could still argue against based on the textual clues and make the same argument against it as speculative and over reaching. Just a quick example haha  )

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

No coincidence that this happens to be the same time frame that Bael had his war on the wall? Couldn't be linked to that huh? Something we are actually told that happens. You think that speculation is more probable and likely? This seems contradictory to claims of my speculations 

The same time frame is 250 or so years so no, there is no reason to think they are linked, especially if there is nothing to link them in either take or story.  Tell me where a dragon shows up in the bael the bard story? Did he fly it into winterfell? did he fly it out of winterfell. Was he roasted to death by it? Last I read it, Bael was killed by his son who was not aware Bael being his dad. 

[AlaskanSandman]

12 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The same time frame is 250 or so years so no, there is no reason to think they are linked, especially if there is nothing to link them in either take or story.  Tell me where a dragon shows up in the bael the bard story? Did he fly it into winterfell? did he fly it out of winterfell. Was he roasted to death by it? Last I read it, Bael was killed by his son who was not aware Bael being his dad. 

Huh? I dont even understand what your trying to say here. That there is a 250 year time difference between Bael and Jaehaerys? Am i understanding that correctly?? Cause if so, how?? Bael skipped down the Kingsroad which was made by Jaehaerys and Barth who didn't become hand till 59ac. 

What because it says a Bolton flayed the Stark? And you actually believe the Boltons and that they gave it up? What about Roose or Ramsay makes you so trusting of House Bolton? 

Also Bael plucked the Lords daughter, which means it was after Aegon's time, and at least by Jaehaerys' time based on the Road.

So where is this separation you speak of? 

And ok, you throw out a bunch of random silly questions. Why would Bael have a dragon? or be able to ride one? that just makes no sense at all. 

And yes, the story say's he was killed by his son. So?

That doesn't mean Jaehaerys and Alysanne we'rent helping to roast other people. They can't have been expected to fight every one just cause they had dragons

[Dorian Martell's son]

41 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This is the problem with not linking other known events in the thread that others may not be considering. You may miss stuff other wise.=

Or, you connect things where there are not connections despite desperately looking for one, like mance being at the harrenhal tourney because he sung one of the most popular songs on the continent. 

42 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Also, how are we supposed to resolve any mystery if we only look at things individually and never together. Even the R+L theory requires multiple parts that are all weak and speculative. 

Many of those parts are presented in one book by people who participated in the event.  The two stories you just tried to connect are hundreds of years old. 

56 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Lyanna was the Kotlt- Never mind that Meera repeatedly refers to him as a male.

This is a possibility. There is nothing that directly connects her though, and the other descriptions of people at the tourney are not misgendered my Meera, so it is highly unlikely. 

58 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna- Not a single credible witness, and the only person who knew Rhaegar, Jon Con, doesnt even mention Lyanna.

We have the word of the king on that one.  Jon con does not mention Lyanna because he was not aware of the situation.  He became hand when Rhaegar had been away, and was exiled as a failure before Rhaegar came back from the TOJ. His lack of mention of this is irrelevant to R+L=J

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Rhaegar whispered her name as he was dying- Never mind that Robert crushed his chest with a war hammer and collapsed his lungs. And who the heck spread that stupid tale any ways? Robert?? Ha.

First of all, Dany saw that in a vision of what was, what will or what would have been. Remember she also saw her son grown as a conqueror. and he is dead. Now, I am not sure where you got collapsed lungs. Quote or it didn't happen. Bob drove a spike through his heart, and depending on the person, that allows for minutes of activity before loss of consciousness. Now, the lyanna's name was confirmed by the author so there it that. 

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Rhaegar wed for duty and not love and they had a hard time even finding him a marriage. 

Rhaegar was wed for duty. It is what every prince does to carry on his line. And only the mad king had the hard time finding a marriage. everyone with a daughter that bleeds wants to marry into the royal family. 

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Marrying Elia gained him no alliances and angered his father and Tywin. 

His father arranged the marriage. This is what I mean about info flood. When you are wrong about a major thing, that wrong carries over and ruins the theory from the inside. The rest of it becomes unbelievable if you can't get some basics correct that are literally spelled out in the books.  Tywin was angered, not because he didn't get the marriage, but because Aerys referred to him as a servant, even though Tywin had rin the kingdom for 2 decades 

[AlaskanSandman]

5 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Or, you connect things where there are not connections despite desperately looking for one, like mance being at the harrenhal tourney because he sung one of the most popular songs on the continent. 

Many of those parts are presented in one book by people who participated in the event.  The two stories you just tried to connect are hundreds of years old. 

This is a possibility. There is nothing that directly connects her though, and the other descriptions of people at the tourney are not misgendered my Meera, so it is highly unlikely. 

We have the word of the king on that one.  Jon con does not mention Lyanna because he was not aware of the situation.  He became hand when Rhaegar had been away, and was exiled as a failure before Rhaegar came back from the TOJ. His lack of mention of this is irrelevant to R+L=J

First of all, Dany saw that in a vision of what was, what will or what would have been. Remember she also saw her son grown as a conqueror. and he is dead. Now, I am not sure where you got collapsed lungs. Quote or it didn't happen. Bob drove a spike through his heart, and depending on the person, that allows for minutes of activity before loss of consciousness. Now, the lyanna's name was confirmed by the author so there it that. 

Rhaegar was wed for duty. It is what every prince does to carry on his line. And only the mad king had the hard time finding a marriage. everyone with a daughter that bleeds wants to marry into the royal family. 

His father arranged the marriage. This is what I mean about info flood. When you are wrong about a major thing, that wrong carries over and ruins the theory from the inside. The rest of it becomes unbelievable if you can't get some basics correct that are literally spelled out in the books.  Tywin was angered, not because he didn't get the marriage, but because Aerys referred to him as a servant, even though Tywin had rin the kingdom for 2 decades 

Lol you would try to turn this into a debate about that hahaha back to the point? Jaehaerys? Alysanne? The fighting on the wall with dragons? Bael and Jaehaerys' kingsroad? No, no Bael taking and riding dragons, he's not a Targaryen. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Lyanna didn't believe in Love as per Ned Stark.

No, she didn't believe Bob would keep his penis in his pants around other women.   you are WAY off on this

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And idk how many other weak pieces belong to this flimsy theory based no so much on smarts but really, just going with Roberts story more or less. Rhaegar took Lyanna and knocked her up. Yet still, people have taken this weak collection of clues and called it a theory despite it laid right in our laps from the on set. Even if it were true, thats not a theory when we're already told it happened more or less. All your doing is assuming Jon is the Child then. This actually seems more like wishful thinking. Lyanna was a good horse rider so she just has to be the male knight described by Meera to be a male multiple times. Robert says Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna so they have to have a baby and it just has to be Jon. Mean time, we're skipping some clues. 

First of all, it is only weak because you do not understand basic parts of itm, as shown in your reply here

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

My theory works on more solid ground than this i think. We are told they fought at the wall, we are told Bael skipped down Jaehaerys kingroad, only made after Barth came on. Then 30 years after this, a war at the wall. Which works with Barth coming on in 59ac and the succession crisis of 92ac being 30 years past that.  I can concede that i may have a few pieces out of place like who exactly Alysanne may have slept with. Or whether she had 1 kid or 2 or whether or not they were twins. But given the succession crisis in the subsequent years, i think it's safe to say that we are looking for unwanted blood in the family line.

Your fan fic  sounds a lot like  Rhaenyra's bastard  twins fathered Harwin Strong. but you haven't even mentioned that yet.   
I think you may be reading the books and side stories and getting confused 

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I think its fair to speculate as such for both theories or any other people may have and want to explorer. I appreciate that this has a couple parts to it, but no more complicated than trying to figure out Varys or the multitude threads on Jon and Dany (mine included) . Grrm is a great writer, what can i say. 

(Not to start a Jon debate here haha just using an example of a really popular theory that people could still argue against based on the textual clues and make the same argument against it as speculative and over reaching. Just a quick example haha  )

T^his isn't about fair. It is about making things digestible 

[AlaskanSandman]

2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

T^his isn't about fair. It is about making things digestible 

Ahhhhh i seee. Cause by all your other responses it's clear where your opinions are and that this theory would kind of mess yours up. 

Still havn't gotten back to the point about Jaehaerys and them fighting at the wall. 

And Harwin was only the supposed father of her Velaryon children by Laenor. Which is debatable at best and either way, those aren't the ruling children of House Targaryen, you know, her children by Daemon. Aegon III and Viserys II. Harwin is irrelevant, thats why i didn't include him. As far as Jaecaerys and them were concerned, their loyalty was to their believed father, Laenor and House Velaryon.

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Huh? I dont even understand what your trying to say here. That there is a 250 year time difference between Bael and Jaehaerys? Am i understanding that correctly?? Cause if so, how?? Bael skipped down the Kingsroad which was made by Jaehaerys and Barth who didn't become hand till 59ac. 

There is a 250 year window for the two events. Other than that there is ZERO connection 

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

What because it says a Bolton flayed the Stark? And you actually believe the Boltons and that they gave it up? What about Roose or Ramsay makes you so trusting of House Bolton? 

Your fan fic might work if you did not make so many assumptions. This is the root of your issue and why this theory never got off the ground 

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Also Bael plucked the Lords daughter, which means it was after Aegon's time, and at least by Jaehaerys' time based on the Road.

That was part of the 250 year window 

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So where is this separation you speak of? 

The utter and complete lack of connection to Bael the bard and Alasayne 

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And yes, the story say's he was killed by his son. So?

Because there is ZERO mention of dragons or targ kings

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

That doesn't mean Jaehaerys and Alysanne we'rent helping to roast other people. They can't have been expected to fight every one just cause they had dragons

It does actually.  Royalty on dragons north of the neck would be exceptional and this remembered

[Dorian Martell's son]

8 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Lol you would try to turn this into a debate about that hahaha back to the point? Jaehaerys? Alysanne? The fighting on the wall with dragons? Bael and Jaehaerys' kingsroad? No, no Bael taking and riding dragons, he's not a Targaryen. 

You brought up bogus and flat wrong interpretations of the books 

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 Still havn't gotten back to the point about Jaehaerys and them fighting at the wall. 

I did

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ahhhhh i seee. Cause by all your other responses it's clear where your opinions are and that this theory would kind of mess yours up. 

They aren't opinions. It is what is in the books, unlike what you are trying to show in here 

2 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And Harwin was only the supposed father of her Velaryon children by Laenor. Which is debatable at best and either way, those aren't the ruling children of House Targaryen, you know, her children by Daemon. Aegon III and Viserys II. Harwin is irrelevant, thats why i didn't include him. As far as Jaecaerys and them were concerned, their loyalty was to their believed father, Laenor and House Velaryon.

The point is, this bit of gossip was spelled out in the text for the readers and you ignore it but are willing to write a separate account of something based on nothing. This is the problem.  This is so pervasive in this forum I put it in my sig to mock it 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

There is a 250 year window for the two events. Other than that there is ZERO connection 

Your fan fic might work if you did not make so many assumptions. This is the root of your issue and why this theory never got off the ground 

That was part of the 250 year window 

The utter and complete lack of connection to Bael the bard and Alasayne 

Because there is ZERO mention of dragons or targ kings

It does actually.  Royalty on dragons north of the neck would be exceptional and this remembered

Lol Well any point with in the 250 year window we should of heard of Bael's war at the wall, but as the Maesters point out, if this did happen, it was kept secret. As the Starks didn't record it in their histories. So pretty easy to surmise why they would leave it out, and especially House Targaryen. 

An argument that Bael happened more recently that Jaehaerys makes no sense as we have even better history accounts the closer we get to the present. So we should have heard of it even more by your logic, yet again, the Maesters kind of explain why this would be left out of the histories. 

And actually this theory has gotten plenty of attention and recognition in other threads and other platforms. Just because im not getting pages of people disagreeing doesn't mean no one agrees, it would kind of mean the opposite. That are they have not much to contest it with nor not much to contribute. Which is ok. I lurk at other threads that i agree with and never offer my own comments. It happens. 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I did

They aren't opinions. It is what is in the books, unlike what you are trying to show in here 

The point is, this bit of gossip was spelled out in the text for the readers and you ignore it but are willing to write a separate account of something based on nothing. This is the problem.  This is so pervasive in this forum I put it in my sig to mock it 

Idk, sounds to me like your making up stuff and deflecting with what ever weak argument you can come up with. 

Harwin is only the possibly parents of the Velaryon children, not of Aegon III the Dragonbane. You seem to be missing something or just blatantly deflecting with nonsense. 

And no, i brought up the points there as there are alotttttttt of people who disagree with the R+L idea, as they too are built upon speculation. Not even gonna entertain retorting your replies to that. 

And your arguments against this thread seem rather desperate and snide. Because it's too deep and and too many pieces for you to wrap you head around so i should dumb it down into basic parts that are more easily dismissable for you.

As the story is told to Jon by Ygrette, she may have saw no reason to mention the dragons. Hardly a solid argument against them being there. 

You would think with Jaehaerys feeding his dragons on Wildlings, Mammoths, and Giants as you tell it, they should be talking about this period. Yet, still not mentioned by the wildlings. 

Yet, Viserys still says they were at the wall fighting them. So, it's right there in the text.

[AlaskanSandman]

8 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

They flew north. Dragons need food. A mammoth would be a good meal. A Giant would probably defend their mammoth. A fight would ensue. It seems not only possible but probable. 

This.

You would think an unprovoked attack from the Kings in the South with their dragons against the wildlings would definitely warrant some stories from the wildlings about those damn Kings in the south and their kneelers.

[AlaskanSandman]

22 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

 

Also, Bael isn't a recorded account in the Stark histories, yet... some how the Maesters still know about it. Explain that away.