corbon Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 hour ago, John Suburbs said: Whatever. You said it. And there is a huge difference between your claim of Rhaegar sending them away from Aerys and between Aerys assigning two of them to leave with Rhaegar and then another to find Rhaegar and get him back. OTOH, 'whatever' is right. Because Rhaegar clearly assigned Darry, Selmy and Martell to leave Aerys alone with Jaime yet you don;t accuse them of Treason. And even Aerys only accuses Martell because he thought Martell lost deliberately, not because Martell left his side. 1 hour ago, John Suburbs said: They were at the Tower of Joy because that is where Rhaegar told them to be. They are not in King's Landing protecting their king with their lives, as their oaths require, they are instead hundreds of miles away looking after Rhaegar's interests. So sorry, but even if they cop the attitude that "we stayed at the ToJ because Aerys himself didn't order us back" that is a pitiful excuse because they are sworn to protect the king and everybody on the entire continent knows that the king's life is in danger. Bullshit. We've covered that extensively. They were at their assigned posts, assigned by Aerys*, and are not responsible for what happens hundred of leagues away when there are 4 other KG still capable of guarding Aerys. *To remind you again, Dayne and Whent left with Rhaegar long before anything happened. They must have been assigned to Rhaegar by Aerys, because Aerys never questions their absence or loyalty over a year, and traditionally the King decides whther Kg will be assigned to protect his family or not. Hightower was explicitly sent by Aerys to find Rhaegar and get him to return. If they had of left their posts, with no instructions to do so and no information as to the current situation, because their intuition told them that Aerys was in danger and needed them, then they'd be guilty of treason. 1 hour ago, John Suburbs said: From Gyldane: So don't tell me there is no text that says Aerys thought Rhaegar was trying to dethrone him. There is plenty of text. These are not "occasional suspicions," this is a mounting fear that began four years prior at Duskendale and culminated at Harrenhal. And all the while, he has Chelstead, Merryweather, Staunton, Velaryon, Varys and Rossart whispering all kinds of conspiracy theories in his ear. Read your own quote. Aerys has suspicions, and fears, and there are rumours. These are not facts that Aerys actually believed Rhaegar to be trying to supplant him. And in the end, Aerys puts his faith in Rhaegar. He makes him commander. Which proves that while he may have had fears and suspicions, he didn;t actually believe them enough for them to define his final choice. Thats all I have time for... sorry I couldn't address the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 17 hours ago, corbon said: You said it. And there is a huge difference between your claim of Rhaegar sending them away from Aerys and between Aerys assigning two of them to leave with Rhaegar and then another to find Rhaegar and get him back. OTOH, 'whatever' is right. Because Rhaegar clearly assigned Darry, Selmy and Martell to leave Aerys alone with Jaime yet you don;t accuse them of Treason. And even Aerys only accuses Martell because he thought Martell lost deliberately, not because Martell left his side. No, there is no difference. They are still breaking their oaths to protect their king. To sit out in the middle of nowhere doing nothing while armies are marching on the king is a gross dereliction of duty. Honor, and their oaths, mandated that they protect their king and they consciously chose not to do it because "we swore a vow." So they either swore that vow to Aerys, which lets them off the hook, or they swore it to someone else, making them oath-breakers in every sense of the word. Aerys told Lewyn to assemble the Dornish host, not Rhaegar. It stands to reason that Aerys also assigned Selmy and Darry to Rhaegar as well, or at the very least agreed with the command, or else they wouldn't have gone. Why would he think Martell lost deliberately, but not Rhaegar? They both lost; they both died. Quote We've covered that extensively. They were at their assigned posts, assigned by Aerys*, and are not responsible for what happens hundred of leagues away when there are 4 other KG still capable of guarding Aerys. OK, now we are getting somewhere. Aerys ordered them to the ToJ. If you'll recall, this was one of the aspects of my OP. So the question then becomes, why? Why would Aerys devote nearly half his kingsguard, the only men in the entire kingdom he trusts, to look after Rhaegar's personal business, or to be anywhere doing anything else, when he has desperate need of them back in the Red Keep or on the Trident? Why does he care about Lyanna and her baby at all, especially since they are in about the safest location they can possibly be? Quote *To remind you again, Dayne and Whent left with Rhaegar long before anything happened. They must have been assigned to Rhaegar by Aerys, because Aerys never questions their absence or loyalty over a year, and traditionally the King decides whther Kg will be assigned to protect his family or not. To remind you again, this is fanfic. There is no text anywhere that says they were with Rhaegar at any time after Harrenhal. They next time we see them is the ToJ. Exactly, Aerys never questions their absence or their loyalty, which he certainly would be doing if he felt they were in any way involved with this disloyal act that was just perpetrated by the disloyal crown prince. All the more reason to suspect it was Aerys who sent them to the ToJ, not Rhaegar. Quote Hightower was explicitly sent by Aerys to find Rhaegar and get him to return. I can't imagine a more idiotic command for the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard: go tell Rhaegar I want to talk to him, and then after he's promised to return home, ride off into the countryside to do whatever you please. Quote If they had of left their posts, with no instructions to do so and no information as to the current situation, because their intuition told them that Aerys was in danger and needed them, then they'd be guilty of treason. Kind of a convoluted sentence, but if I am reading it correctly then it is yet another absurd comment. How on earth do you imagine that these three experienced warriors would think that Aerys was not in any danger when armies are fighting and rebellion is breaking out across the land? The entire kingdom is in danger. But are you saying that if they had left the ToJ because they did think the king was in danger, that would be the treason? That's is also patently absurd. That's like saying Barristan Selmy committed treason at Duskendale because Aerys didn't specifically order him to do it. Their oaths mandate that they defend their king with their lives, obey his commands and protect him from all harm. If they fail to do that, they have broken that oath. Only if Aerys specifically told them to remain at the tower no matter what happens are they off the hook. But this command must come from Aerys, the king, not the crown prince whom the king suspects of trying to usurp him. Quote Read your own quote. Aerys has suspicions, and fears, and there are rumours. These are not facts that Aerys actually believed Rhaegar to be trying to supplant him. And in the end, Aerys puts his faith in Rhaegar. He makes him commander. Which proves that while he may have had fears and suspicions, he didn;t actually believe them enough for them to define his final choice. Suspicions, fears, beliefs, what he doesn't have is proof. But that doesn't let the KG off the hook by failing to defend their king just because the object of all these suspicions, fears and beliefs told them to sit tight. Their overriding command, sanctified by a sacred oath that they swore before the king, the court and the high septon, was to defend the king. To say that they failed to do this because the crown prince, who would then become king upon his death, told them not to is laughable. Again, I'll ask you: why does Aerys suddenly have all this faith in Rhaegar? His suspicions have been steadily mounting for years, and the whole kingdom was buzzing about dethronement when Rhaegar left for Dragonstone. The next time they meet is at Harrenhal, where Rhaegar earned zero brownie points from the king, and then in KL after Rhaegar supposedly launched the shitstorm that Aerys had to deal with for months while Rhaegar was off enjoying himself. For what possible reason would Aerys trust Rhaegar at this point? Sure, he makes him commander because your army is not likely to fight for you very well if your own son and heir is not willing to support you, but you are entirely missing the leverage here. Aerys is blackmailing Rhaegar through his wife and children. Quote Thats all I have time for... sorry I couldn't address the rest. That's fine. Don't bother. We're just circling (and clashing?) here anyway. It was a lively debate, though. We can revisit it in the future when the truth comes out to show how wrong you are. 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corbon Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 On 1/19/2019 at 10:40 AM, John Suburbs said: That's fine. Don't bother. We're just circling (and clashing?) here anyway. It was a lively debate, though. We can revisit it in the future when the truth comes out to show how wrong you are. Heh, back from holidays and absolutely no energy to get back into the debate. But I fully appreciate this part, and the spirit of it, and return it in full measure. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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