Did the Boltons support the Blackfyres?

[The WolfSpider]

3 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I am not sure this is true. While the Peakes are the ones we know about, I expect other houses to have lost lands and gold, too. The Worldbook states:

In the aftermath, King Daeron showed a sternness that few expected. Many lords and knights who had supported the Black Dragon had lands and seats and privileges stripped from them and were forced to give over hostages.

We actually don't really know about many houses that fully supported the Blackfyres, but we know the Osgreys and the Three Sisters had to pay for their treason.

 Which I would consider less than serious repercussions. I mostly included House Peake because they lost 2 castles. The penalty for treason should be death and destruction of the House and that both the Lord Paramount and King in all of these situations declined is surprising. 

 

I've always had the feeling that Spotted Tom from the Band of Nine could be a Bolton. I think he's called Spotted Tom the Butcher and what would a butcher be spotted with but blood?  Much like the Bolton sigil in the books. That and the butcher motif is thick with Bolton. Falchions like cleavers, tongues torn out, bodies taken apart, skin, Skinner, triangular merlons that strongly remind me of meat tenderizer mallets. I bet if they have Valyrian steel it's a flensing knife.

 

They have other motifs obviously (torture, secrets) but this is the thickest one. 

 

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

So far there is a bit of a disconnect between the Worldbook’s claim that Daeron was uncharacteristically harsh in punishing the Black houses and what we’ve seen in Dunk and Egg. It sounds like few people were exiled, and the Butterwells, Freys, Brackens, etc. didn’t seem to lose any privileges. I wish we knew more. 
 

Going back to the Boltons, I’m guessing that whatever support they may have lent the Blackfyres would have been done under the table. Characters in this series often have similar personalities to their ancestors, so it wouldn’t surprise me if the Boltons of old were sly and cunning. 

[Lord Varys]

19 hours ago, The WolfSpider said:

And lastly:  I think it's premature to say the Martells are without the necessary resources. IF the numbers Doran claimed are accurate that does not take into account gold and I think the Martells have that in spades and are at least the third wealthiest family in Westeros. But if the rest of Westeros can be mistaken about how many spears they can call then they can certainly be wrong about treasury and who knows maybe they're the wealthiest.

The Yronwoods only still exist because the Martells and the Iron Throne didn't want to destroy them. And destroying doesn't mean physical destroying but simply attainting them. Prince Maron and Daeron II could have taken Yronwood from the Yronwoods without actually killing them. They would have to besiege the castle, of course, but that wouldn't be that big of a deal.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

So far there is a bit of a disconnect between the Worldbook’s claim that Daeron was uncharacteristically harsh in punishing the Black houses and what we’ve seen in Dunk and Egg. It sounds like few people were exiled, and the Butterwells, Freys, Brackens, etc. didn’t seem to lose any privileges. I wish we knew more.

It doesn't seem that many houses who are still prominent today actually did fully support the Blackfyres in any rebellion. Playing both sides or sending some men to a pretender without raising all your troops/bannermen isn't really considered that big of a deal in the aftermath of a rebellion.

Bittersteel had enough fellow exiles with him to found the Golden Company, indicating that Daeron II may have exiled thousands of men along with their families in addition to the lords and knights he tooks lands from and forced to hand over hostages.

In general, the Blackfyre Rebellion feels like a movement that wasn't really carried by many lords or greater houses. Rather Daemon looks like another version of Renly who drew many younger sons and great knights to his side who, in turn, drew other men to him. The relative strength of the Blackfyre cause might have more to do with the reluctance of Daeron II's lords to take the field against Daemon rather than with said lords actively siding with Daemon.

I'd even doubt that the Reynes stood with Daemon Blackfyre fully - so far we only got talk about one knight from House Reyne fighting for Daemon which could mean that Lord Reyne did not.

The reason why Lord Butterwell wasn't really punished is also pretty obvious. He himself didn't fight at all. And that's not really a crime. He isn't necessarily responsible for the actions of his sons, especially if they no longer lived at home. Yohn Royce is also not responsible for Robar joining the Rainbow Guard.

[The WolfSpider]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It doesn't seem that many houses who are still prominent today actually did fully support the Blackfyres in any rebellion. Playing both sides or sending some men to a pretender without raising all your troops/bannermen isn't really considered that big of a deal in the aftermath of a rebellion.

Bittersteel had enough fellow exiles with him to found the Golden Company, indicating that Daeron II may have exiled thousands of men along with their families in addition to the lords and knights he tooks lands from and forced to hand over hostages.

In general, the Blackfyre Rebellion feels like a movement that wasn't really carried by many lords or greater houses. Rather Daemon looks like another version of Renly who drew many younger sons and great knights to his side who, in turn, drew other men to him. The relative strength of the Blackfyre cause might have more to do with the reluctance of Daeron II's lords to take the field against Daemon rather than with said lords actively siding with Daemon.

I'd even doubt that the Reynes stood with Daemon Blackfyre fully - so far we only got talk about one knight from House Reyne fighting for Daemon which could mean that Lord Reyne did not.

The reason why Lord Butterwell wasn't really punished is also pretty obvious. He himself didn't fight at all. And that's not really a crime. He isn't necessarily responsible for the actions of his sons, especially if they no longer lived at home. Yohn Royce is also not responsible for Robar joining the Rainbow Guard.

Now that you mention it Lord Butterwell was actually punished more severe than most. Wasn't his castle pulled down? Yes and he only kept a tenth of his wealth.  Now that is strict but that was Bloodraven.

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, The WolfSpider said:

Now that you mention it Lord Butterwell was actually punished more severe than most. Wasn't his castle pulled down? Yes and he only kept a tenth of his wealth.  Now that is strict but that was Bloodraven.

That was after the Second Blackfyre Rebellion. We were talking what happened after the first when Daeron II was punishing the rebels.

Bloodraven is responsible for the punishing of most folks after the Whitewalls incident, but he isn't all that harsh there, too. Executing the architects of the conspiracy sounds like a normal thing, and those boil down to Gormon Peake, Alyn Cockshaw, and Tommard Heddle (the last two of which were already taken out by Dunk). The lords attending Whitewalls got off the hook rather easily, especially Lord Frey who may have been playing both sides.

I assume Bloodraven argued for a harsher approach back in 196 AC and afterwards because Daemon and his followers caused a massive war which killed thousands of people and destroyed much of the countryside. A rebellion without a battle/war is a much lesser crime than a rebellion which led to a big war.

[The WolfSpider]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That was after the Second Blackfyre Rebellion. We were talking what happened after the first when Daeron II was punishing the rebels.

Bloodraven is responsible for the punishing of most folks after the Whitewalls incident, but he isn't all that harsh there, too. Executing the architects of the conspiracy sounds like a normal thing, and those boil down to Gormon Peake, Alyn Cockshaw, and Tommard Heddle (the last two of which were already taken out by Dunk). The lords attending Whitewalls got off the hook rather easily, especially Lord Frey who may have been playing both sides.

I assume Bloodraven argued for a harsher approach back in 196 AC and afterwards because Daemon and his followers caused a massive war which killed thousands of people and destroyed much of the countryside. A rebellion without a battle/war is a much lesser crime than a rebellion which led to a big war.

I was talking more expansively but I take your point.  

 

To me it feels odd the conspirators were punished worse than the actual participants in the Rebellions. Having your castle destroyed and losing all but a tenth is possibly worse than Peake's losses.

 

My headcanon is that Bloodraven, as Hand, just decreed what he wanted and it could be walked back if necessary 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, The WolfSpider said:

To me it feels odd the conspirators were punished worse than the actual participants in the Rebellions. Having your castle destroyed and losing all but a tenth is possibly worse than Peake's losses.

For that we would have to wait and see who exactly is punished how by Daeron II after the Redgrass Field.

Peake lost his head, so he paid the ultimate price. Whitewalls is destroyed because Bloodraven wants to prevent it from becoming another pilgrimage site for the Blackfyre loyalists (like the Redgrass Field apparently was). And Butterwell lost his wealth because he was the man at the heart of the conspiracy who tried to weasel out of things a second time. He was already suspected of being a traitor back during the first rebellion.