Howland Reed at the Tower of Joy

[the trees have eyes]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

No, I don’t think that’s true, at least not necessarily true.  The Kingsguards swore to protect and serve King Aerys until their death, their service to the King they swore to does not necessarily end with the King’s death.   So if Aerys gave them a command, or commanded them to follow someone else’s command (say Rhaegar) then they were duty bound to see try and see the command through until that task was over.  Even if the ones who originally gave the commands had died.

If their last command had been go fight at the Battle of the Trident, after that battle was over, they wouldn’t have had any further orders to see through.  As was the case of Ser Barristan.

But if their command was something they could still accomplish even if Aerys and Rhaegar had died, then they should have seen it through until they accomplished it or died trying.  Or perhaps in the case of Arthur allowing himself to be killed once he realized he couldn’t accomplish it without violating more fundamental vows.

Ser Willem Darry acted to protect the royal family.  But as the Kingsguards pointed out to Eddard, he wasn’t a Kingsguard.

And when the King dies, they are bound to serve his heir, who is of course now the new king.  "Le Roi est mort, Vive le Roi" after all.  So whatever Aerys's orders, say to return Lyanna and any child to The Red Keep or hold them in confinement, they will interpret their duty now as being to Rhaegar's children and Lyanna's child who they may view as their King.  It's not disrespecting or disobeying Aerys's wishes, but their duty is now to another Liege. 

Cf Ned reading out Robert's will or last orders and Cersei tearing it up.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIV

The eunuch carried the letter to Cersei. The queen glanced at the words. "Protector of the Realm," she read. "Is this meant to be your shield, my lord? A piece of paper?" She ripped the letter in half, ripped the halves in quarters, and let the pieces flutter to the floor.

"Those were the king's words," Ser Barristan said, shocked.

"We have a new king now," Cersei Lannister replied.

Barristan may not like Cerei's conduct but Joffrey is King and names Cersei his regent.  Barristan absolutely would have served him and Cersei as regent whatever Robert's last orders, but he was dismissed.  All the other KG ignore Robert's last wishes because the King they serve is in front of them giving orders.

In the absence of a Regent the KG at The Tower of Joy act as they think best reflects their duty.  There is a big question mark over whether they were really obeying Rhaegar over Aerys in any case, prior to either man's death.  Ironically, Darry was the more effective as he got both Dany and Viserys to safety.

 

[Alester Florent]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

 

Barristan may not like Cerei's conduct but Joffrey is King and names Cersei his regent.  Barristan absolutely would have served him and Cersei as regent whatever Robert's last orders, but he was dismissed.  All the other KG ignore Robert's last wishes because the King they serve is in front of them giving orders

An underage King doesn't have power to appoint his own regent, or any other council members, though. Cersei's move was absolutely a coup, but Ned didn't have the muscle to enforce the legalities.

Nevertheless Barry was still right, by the principles of the KG, not to intervene, because his job is to protect Joffrey, and to a lesser extent Cersei's person (as queen) not Ned or Ned's legal rights , and his role, and that of all the KG when a fight breaks out, is to ensure the King's safety above all else.

[the trees have eyes]

10 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

An underage King doesn't have power to appoint his own regent, or any other council members, though. Cersei's move was absolutely a coup, but Ned didn't have the muscle to enforce the legalities.

Technically this is correct.  But Joffrey is 14, rather than an infant so the choice for Barristan is whether to listen to the Dead King's last wishes or to the Live King and his mother, the Dowager Queen.  The idea of ignoring Joffrey until he reaches his majority in four years is fraught with problems.  History is littered with disputed successions and power struggles between factions during minorities.  Ned of course simplifies things by declaring that Joffrey is not King which immediately makes Barristan's duty clear to him, at least until he gets his pink slip....

But as to the coup:

10 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Nevertheless Barry was still right, by the principles of the KG, not to intervene, because his job is to protect Joffrey, and to a lesser extent Cersei's person (as queen) not Ned or Ned's legal rights , and his role, and that of all the KG when a fight breaks out, is to ensure the King's safety above all else.

His duty is to protect the King and Ned has turned up with guardsmen, declared that the King is not the King and ordered Cersei and Joffrey to be taken into custody.  For all the KG, #1 is protecting King Joffrey, #2 is dealing with Ned's apparent coup.  Ofc LF has that in hand but Barristan's duty is not to Ned's commands empowered by Robert's authority when those orders seem to be an attack on the royal family.  This is what I meant in my earlier post about KG not acting robotically to obey the King's last orders when to do so is counter to the purpose of protecting the royal family.  Ned of course did not write down Robert's words verbatim, substituting "heir" for "son" so he is not fulfilling Robert's wishes which tangles things further but for the KG it seems clear enough: Ned is using Robert's will to launch a coup.  It seems obvious in this case that the King's last words should be ignored in order to protect the new King.

If Ned had acted differently it would be interesting to see how the KG acted with Ned waving around Robert's will and Joffrey and Cersei in clear opposition to this.

[Alester Florent]

17 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Technically this is correct.  But Joffrey is 14, rather than an infant so the choice for Barristan is whether to listen to the Dead King's last wishes or to the Live King and his mother, the Dowager Queen.  The idea of ignoring Joffrey until he reaches his majority in four years is fraught with problems.  History is littered with disputed successions and power struggles between factions during minorities.  Ned of course simplifies things by declaring that Joffrey is not King which immediately makes Barristan's duty clear to him, at least until he gets his pink slip....

But as to the coup:

His duty is to protect the King and Ned has turned up with guardsmen, declared that the King is not the King and ordered Cersei and Joffrey to be taken into custody.  For all the KG, #1 is protecting King Joffrey, #2 is dealing with Ned's apparent coup.  Ofc LF has that in hand but Barristan's duty is not to Ned's commands empowered by Robert's authority when those orders seem to be an attack on the royal family.  This is what I meant in my earlier post about KG not acting robotically to obey the King's last orders when to do so is counter to the purpose of protecting the royal family.  Ned of course did not write down Robert's words verbatim, substituting "heir" for "son" so he is not fulfilling Robert's wishes which tangles things further but for the KG it seems clear enough: Ned is using Robert's will to launch a coup.  It seems obvious in this case that the King's last words should be ignored in order to protect the new King.

If Ned had acted differently it would be interesting to see how the KG acted with Ned waving around Robert's will and Joffrey and Cersei in clear opposition to this.

Ned doesn't question Joff's parentage openly until after Cersei has made it clear she's not paying any attention to the legalities. Turning up with men is not unusual in this kind of situation, especially if trouble is expected.

The law was all on Ned's side, even if Joff had been legitimate. Aegon III was subject to a regency until his sixteenth nameday and didn't have the power to make appointments or to dismiss officers until that point. Daeron I was fully empowered at fourteen, but only by allowance of the Hand and Protector - who in this case is Ned. The whole purpose of the king making a will when his heir is underage is to stop this situation from happening. Cersei's destruction of the will shows her contempt for the law and for due process. This in itself was arguably an act of treason.

Ned did falsify the will but Robert sealed Ned's version, and Cersei ripped it up either way, not because it's calling Joff's legitimacy into account but because she's seeking to unlawfully depose the regent. Again, Ned doesn't raise the "lawful heir" point until after Cersei makes her intentions clear in this respect. The coup was Cersei's, not Ned's.

Nor does the claim that Joff is not the legitimate king necessarily simplify things from the KG's perspective, because if he's right - which in fact he is - then Cersei is a traitor, Joff is her bastard, and the KG owe no allegiance to either of them. Barry would doubtless, and I think correctly, see his duty being to protect Joff until such a time as it's proven otherwise, but this is a question of seeing that no bodily harm comes to him, not blindly enforcing his will to depose the lawful regent.

[three-eyed monkey]

@Frey family reunion

Jaime tells us himself that he never grieves for Aerys. He may have regrets about failing to protect Rhaegar's children, but not about Aerys. In his dream, he justifies killing Aerys, and the accusations that follow from his sworn brothers are simply a reflection of what Westeros thinks of what he did. This is part of the price Jaime paid to do the right thing. As Aemon said, it's easy to do the right thing when there is no cost. But sooner or later in every man's life there comes a day when it is not so easy, a day when he must choose.

There is a parallel here with Ned, who also sacrificed his honor and let Westeros think he'd dishonored his wedding vow and fathered a bastard, so to protect Jon. Doing the right thing costs in this series, every time.

Ned is a truly honorable man, and we see examples of this all through AGoT. He's always trying to do the right thing, even if that means disobeying his king, as he does when he's taking Robert's final testimony.

Quote

"Robert …" Joffrey is not your son, he wanted to say, but the words would not come. The agony was written too plainly across Robert's face; he could not hurt him more. So Ned bent his head and wrote, but where the king had said "my son Joffrey," he scrawled "my heir" instead. The deceit made him feel soiled. The lies we tell for love, he thought. May the gods forgive me.

The lies we tell for love. The things we do for love. There is a thematic parallel between Ned and Jaime, so I do feel that Ned would better understand Jaime's actions had he known about the wildfire plot.

Aemon asked Jon what Ned would do if the day ever came when he had to choose between his honor and the ones he loved? Of course, we know that day had come for Ned once before at the Tower of Joy. As Jon was raised by Ned his answer is instructive.

Quote

 

"Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?"

Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name. "He would do whatever was right," he said … ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. "No matter what."

 

Jon wanted to say Ned would never dishonor himself, but he knew that wasn't quite true. It's not a simple as that. Yet Jon still knew that Ned would do whatever was right, which is actually the true definition of honor, no matter what. Even if it cost him his "honor" as currently defined in Westeros. I agree with Jon. Ned valued true honor, the quality of knowing and doing the right thing, over the label of honor, which is a white bull elephant.

I don't get why it would take Arthur to die on his sword for Ned to respect him though. Ned has a deep respect for Barristan.

Quote

"Ser Barristan is as valiant and honorable as any man in King's Landing." Ned had come to have a deep respect for the aged, white-haired Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

If you're a good man sworn to a bad cause, killing yourself or allowing yourself to be killed is hardly the right solution. That just seems like a needless death to me. I would think that abandoning the bad cause and taking up a good cause is the right thing to do. This is the path to redemption.

I suggest Arthur and Barristan took different approaches to this. Barristan accepted Robert's pardon and swore himself to the new king, turning a blind eye to the crimes that had been committed during the sack, most notably the death of Elia and her children.

Arthur, on the other hand, could never bend the knee to Robert, not after the way he'd usurped the throne. Switching allegiance from Aerys to Robert was just swapping one bad cause for another. Arthur needed to take up a good cause, like defending the realm, which ultimately was Rhaegar's cause. The Watch is a place where a man's past is set aside and only his duty to defend the realms of men matters. It's the perfect place for Arthur to find some form of redemption. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that Ned would offer him the black as an alternative to execution.

[the trees have eyes]

4 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Ned doesn't question Joff's parentage openly until after Cersei has made it clear she's not paying any attention to the legalities. Turning up with men is not unusual in this kind of situation, especially if trouble is expected.

Technically this is correct but it's not the real issue.  Cersei has admitted the paternity of her children to Ned so Ned has only one purpose in turning up - to remove Joffrey - and the only way for her to prevent that is to remove Ned's legitimacy.  There is no circumstance here in which she is going to pay attention to the legalities.

The issue therefore is for the KG: obey the living King and his mother, the Dowager Queen, or obey the Hand appointed by the old king as Regent, whose first act is to declare that Joffrey is not king and order him and the rest of the royal family taken into custody.  With the information they have, wrong though it may be, it's not a hard call for the KG to ignore Ned's orders and see him arrested as a traitor.  This expressly ignores Robert's last orders because to obey them blindly would be seem to defeat the purpose of Robert's intent - to see his son and heir (cough, cough), safely protected during his minority.  They clearly think this is what their vow entails.

If Ned had laid out his proofs and persuaded them of the legitimacy of Stannis as King, Barristan at least would have seen it as his duty to follow Ned and support Stannis.  But Ned does not have the luxury of time or the opportunity to canvass any of them privately.  And Trant and Blount at least would likely follow Cersei and Joffrey regardless.

[Frey family reunion]

On 3/7/2023 at 7:46 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

Jaime tells us himself that he never grieves for Aerys. He may have regrets about failing to protect Rhaegar's children, but not about Aerys. In his dream, he justifies killing Aerys, and the accusations that follow from his sworn brothers are simply a reflection of what Westeros thinks of what he did. This is part of the price Jaime paid to do the right thing. As Aemon said, it's easy to do the right thing when there is no cost. But sooner or later in every man's life there comes a day when it is not so easy, a day when he must choose.

I agree that Jaime doesn't grieve for Aerys, who would?  I do think however, that this dream does perhaps reinforce the notion that Jaime does have guilt for killing the king he made a solemn vow to protect.  Regardless of who the king was.  Those are two very different things.  In his waking moments he even regrets keeping his white cloak on when he did the deed.

So at some level Jaime grieves over his loss of honor.  

And if you read the description of Jaime's recollection of how he killed Aerys, I'm not sure that GRRM really is trying to convey to the readers that Jaime at that moment acted to protect King's Landing.

He certainly did so when he killed Rossart, but everything about Jaime's memory of the King, was that he was already a beaten pathetic man.  His bowels loosening as in a mad panic he tried crawling up to the throne, as Lannister forces were sweeping through the Keep.  And then Jaime cutting his throat like he was killing a pig.

Now since we have zero sympathy for Aerys, it's easy to forgive Jaime for this act.  But I'm not so sure Eddard is easily forgiving.  Even if he knew the whole story.  Because despite Eddard's hatred of Aerys, he still gives great weight to solemen oaths and vows.  And Eddard himself has his own nightmares perhaps about solemn promises that he has broken.

And further reflected in Jaime's dreams, is that Jaime's justifications may even be hollow in his own subconcious.  

When his wraiths approach, he justifies killing Aerys because he tried to burn down King's Landing.  Then he justifies the fact that he didn't protect Rhaegar's children because he didn't think that his father's troops would harm them, and then the flame on his sword dims.

Then again the wraiths converage blaming him for killing the king he was sworn to protect, and that's when the flame on Jaime's sword completely extinguishes.

Now maybe this is just some weirwood induced dream that doesn't reflect Jaime's true subconcious.  Or maybe it does, it's hard to say.  My gut feeling is that you really can't seperate Jaime's subconcious from his nightmares even if they are induced by a collective consciousness.

 

[three-eyed monkey]

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I agree that Jaime doesn't grieve for Aerys, who would?  I do think however, that this dream does perhaps reinforce the notion that Jaime does have guilt for killing the king he made a solemn vow to protect.  Regardless of who the king was.  Those are two very different things.  In his waking moments he even regrets keeping his white cloak on when he did the deed.

So at some level Jaime grieves over his loss of honor.  

I agree that Jaime grieves over his loss of honor, as I said there is always a price to pay when doing the right thing and most of the time that price seems unfair. My point is that Jaime does not regret killing Aerys, which contrasts with Barristan's regrets about perhaps doing his job too well, at Duskendale in particular. This contrast is made sharper by the fact that Duskendale is considered Barristan's finest hour, while killing Aerys is Jaime's hour of shame.

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

And if you read the description of Jaime's recollection of how he killed Aerys, I'm not sure that GRRM really is trying to convey to the readers that Jaime at that moment acted to protect King's Landing.

He did act to protect King's Landing, but I agree there's more to it than that. These are complicated characters and there is more than one theme acting on their arc at any one time. For example, Aerys ordered Jaime to bring him Tywin's head, so there is obviously a conflict between family and duty too.

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Then again the wraiths converage blaming him for killing the king he was sworn to protect, and that's when the flame on Jaime's sword completely extinguishes.

It depends on what we think the flame symbolizes. Down there in the darkness it was the source of light so I would say it represents the truth. The truth was extinguished by the lie that Jaime did not act with honor because he forswore his vow, which is what Westeros believes, and that's the view being reflected by his sworn brothers in his dream. However, we should note that Brienne's sword still burned because she knows the truth.