astarkchoice Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 2 hours ago, Alden Rothack said: -Tywin isn't going to accept anyone but another lannister 'sorting' Joffrey out -Not immediately no but cersei isn't particularly smart or wise -he womt care.....his family is now part of a solid dynasty. Tywin probably doesnt like joffs current manner so someone needs to fix the little.shit, ned can do that while tywin sorts out the westerlands -maybe but she isnt able to do anything in this scenario. Plus as long as joff is king and no one is gonna expose her twincest (ned is all in if this scenario happens) shes happy enough, safe but sidelinded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 2 hours ago, Alden Rothack said: No they can't, he kidnapped and murdered a lady of a great house, ramsey has been sentenced to death and the moment roose admits that he knows ramsey is alive his head is going to be next to go on a spike. Roose can save his own neck if he has ramsey killed and withdraws from the Hornwood lands if his forces have retaken winterfell and moatlin particularly if he convinces the ironborn to return the hostages but ramsey's fate is sealled, Rob won't risk the Manderleys rebelling for the risk of a murderer. Fair enough roose could also probably order the dreadforts men to capture ramsay and go help the stark loyalists....but yeah roose was In on the red wedding by then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted June 5, 2023 Author Share Posted June 5, 2023 10 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: -he womt care.....his family is now part of a solid dynasty. Tywin probably doesnt like joffs current manner so someone needs to fix the little.shit, ned can do that while tywin sorts out the westerlands -maybe but she isnt able to do anything in this scenario. Plus as long as joff is king and no one is gonna expose her twincest (ned is all in if this scenario happens) shes happy enough, safe but sidelinded cersei's actions during the lannister-tyrell alliance make it clear what her opinion of safe but sidelined is 4 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: Fair enough roose could also probably order the dreadforts men to capture ramsay and go help the stark loyalists....but yeah roose was In on the red wedding by then. roose isn't locked into the plot until he actually joins in, ramseys actions are a bigger problem for him than walder, in fact if walder still trys to go ahead and roose betrays him by for example saying he learned of the plot from his wife then robb likely rewards him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 1 hour ago, Nevets said: Tywin is not going to tolerate Cersei being sidelined. Littlefinger isn't going to tolerate Stannis being named King, and Stannis won't accept anything less. Stannis and Tywin are already gathering troops. Stannis will certainly reveal the incest, which would force Ned to either take action or ignore it. If he ignores it, it's going to be difficult to use later, if Joffrey gets out of hand. Ned would probably be forced to side with either Tywin or Stannis. Neither is good, and fighting will break out. As for Sansa and Arya, Ned made plans to get them out. The problem was, events overtook his plans and forced action before he was ready. tywin wont give a shit if cersei is sidlined i the LF deal as his family is sealed into a solid royal dynasty with the stark/tullys/arryns! hed probably bring her home and force her to marry someone and jamie too (ned wont have him as Kg) lf isnt gonna do shit if the renly plan is enacted hes too cowardly and yeah if ned picks the LF plan it probably means war with stannis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 21 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said: -cersei's actions during the lannister-tyrell alliance make it clear what her opinion of safe but sidelined is -roose isn't locked into the plot until he actually joins in, ramseys actions are a bigger problem for him than walder, in fact if walder still trys to go ahead and roose betrays him by for example saying he learned of the plot from his wife then robb likely rewards him -yeah but in this scenario shes fucked outta luck...tywin will have her married off in no time to keep her from fucking a good thing up! -yeah im.agreeing..my point was by that time he clearly sent ramsay orders (freys to be spared ) thus he was already ' in' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted June 5, 2023 Author Share Posted June 5, 2023 5 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: -yeah but in this scenario shes fucked outta luck...tywin will have her married off in no time to keep her from fucking a good thing up! -yeah im.agreeing..my point was by that time he clearly sent ramsay orders (freys to be spared ) thus he was already ' in' that will certainly be his plan, I mean he thinks Tyrion will do a better job and he hates tyrion as much or more than cersei does. the one thing cersei is good at is fucking things up for her own side, i wouldn't count her out even in this situation as for roose, i think he could salvage things at any point before the Red Wedding if he changed his mind, its not like everyone didn't hate him anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 29 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said: -that will certainly be his plan, I mean he thinks Tyrion will do a better job and he hates tyrion as much or more than cersei does. the one thing cersei is good at is fucking things up for her own side, i wouldn't count her out even in this situation as for roose, i think he could salvage things at any point before the Red Wedding if he changed his mind, its not like everyone didn't hate him anyway. -shes a lot more powerless in thay scenario though -yeah but hes cold blooded sob that decided robb was done , bolton and the barrow area (lady dustins in law house house dustin and her original pre marriage house ryswell family ) have both long warred with starks for control of the north too so its history repeating itself! Once he decided to go all in and ramsay told him of his adventures escaping as reek he clearly has a 2nd golden oppertunity to cripple stark loyalists with the ambush outside winderfel pre red wedding! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted June 5, 2023 Author Share Posted June 5, 2023 2 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: -shes a lot more powerless in thay scenario though -yeah but hes cold blooded sob that decided robb was done , bolton and the barrow area (lady dustins in law house house dustin and her original pre marriage house ryswell family ) have both long warred with starks for control of the north too so its history repeating itself! Once he decided to go all in and ramsay told him of his adventures escaping as reek he clearly has a 2nd golden oppertunity to cripple stark loyalists with the ambush outside winderfel pre red wedding! Roose might well decide that Rob is still done, it depends on what else is going on at the time However Rob being a lost cause wasn't actually certain until the blackwater, up to that point despite his political failings Rob was still winning the war, any number of decisions could make Roose change his mind Certainly Roose isn't going to publically betray Rob if Stannis is king. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 2 hours ago, Alden Rothack said: Roose might well decide that Rob is still done, it depends on what else is going on at the time However Rob being a lost cause wasn't actually certain until the blackwater, up to that point despite his political failings Rob was still winning the war, any number of decisions could make Roose change his mind Certainly Roose isn't going to publically betray Rob if Stannis is king. Stannis and his seemingly unbeatable army is still gonna need robb to submit and at bare minimum break up the new kingdom which roose will probablý think his northern brothers as likely to risk war for, the theres ramsays naughty lil cimes , the ironborn invasion started and started well semingly ended a lot of starks ended too. Mix in jamies freedom Now his father in law wants to rebel? At worst he tells robb and just maybe they take the twins by stealth and worse they die outside its walls given its the chokpoint of their new kingdom... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted June 5, 2023 Author Share Posted June 5, 2023 31 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: Stannis and his seemingly unbeatable army is still gonna need robb to submit and at bare minimum break up the new kingdom which roose will probablý think his northern brothers as likely to risk war for, the theres ramsays naughty lil cimes , the ironborn invasion started and started well semingly ended a lot of starks ended too. Mix in jamies freedom Now his father in law wants to rebel? At worst he tells robb and just maybe they take the twins by stealth and worse they die outside its walls given its the chokpoint of their new kingdom... there are is a good chance they take the twins given that a number of freys like rob and most of them hate each other plus a number of them have ties to other houses, Houses Darry and Caron are officially leaderless at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csuszka1948 Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 (edited) 13 hours ago, SeanF said: I doubt if there was any good option for Ned, other than getting out of Dodge. Both Renly and Stannis would have declared the three children as bastards, and would have had them executed with their parents. Ned would be consumed with guilt over it. Cersei would have chafed under LF’s proposal (assuming LF was being sincere to Ned) and war would have come eventually. Couldn't he have accepted Renly's proposal to seize Cersei's children, and at the same time invite Stannis to the capital to take the Throne? If Ned and Renly succeed (that is indeed questionable imo), Ned could tell Renly the truth about the incest and that he supports Stannis. At that point, Renly has already sided with Ned, the Lord Protector and cannot easily back down - his best choice is to back Ned's scheme to put Stannis on the Throne and make himself heir, marrying to Margaery. Yes, Renly won't like the idea of making Stannis King, but he would like the idea of removing Cersei's children from line of succession and destroying the Lannisters via charges of incest. Stannis is the closest to the capital, and within a week he arrives and takes control. Ned only needs to maintain the lie that Joffrey is the heir and he the Lord Protector for that week, and then he can go home. Edited June 5, 2023 by csuszka1948 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 3 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said: there are is a good chance they take the twins given that a number of freys like rob and most of them hate each other plus a number of them have ties to other houses, Houses Darry and Caron are officially leaderless at this point. Very few like him.after he breaks the marriage off and shames them. Walder begin planning the red wedding with tywin and then roose ...sooo if roose wanted 'out' hed have to warn robb in secret , seemingly go ahead with wedding but also secrely have enough men go around to ambush the bolton and karstark.men who later attack them, keep his bride safe and their famit and finaly get the entire force to keep a secret and act drunk before rushing the freys and catching them with doors open...seemns very risky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 5 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said: Couldn't he have accepted Renly's proposal to seize Cersei's children, and at the same time invite Stannis to the capital to take the Throne? If Ned and Renly succeed (that is indeed questionable imo), Ned could tell Renly the truth about the incest and that he supports Stannis. At that point, Renly has already sided with Ned, the Lord Protector and cannot easily back down - his best choice is to back Ned's scheme to put Stannis on the Throne and make himself heir, marrying to Margaery. Yes, Renly won't like the idea of making Stannis King, but he would like the idea of removing Cersei's children from line of succession and destroying the Lannisters via charges of incest. Stannis is the closest to the capital, and within a week he arrives and takes control. Ned only needs to maintain the lie that Joffrey is the heir and he the Lord Protector for that week, and then he can go home. But, Stannis would have executed the "abominations". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 4 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said: Couldn't he have accepted Renly's proposal to seize Cersei's children, and at the same time invite Stannis to the capital to take the Throne? If Ned and Renly succeed (that is indeed questionable imo), Ned could tell Renly the truth about the incest and that he supports Stannis. At that point, Renly has already sided with Ned, the Lord Protector and cannot easily back down - his best choice is to back Ned's scheme to put Stannis on the Throne and make himself heir, marrying to Margaery. Stannis is the closest to the capital, and within a week he arrives and takes control. Ned only needs to maintain the lie that Joffrey is the heir and he the Lord Protector for that week, and then he can go home. That was exactly the plan with renly ...ned was just too honourable to put the royal kids through it! Plus he thought he had the goldcloaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted June 5, 2023 Author Share Posted June 5, 2023 1 minute ago, astarkchoice said: Very few like him.after he breaks the marriage off and shames them. Walder begin planning the red wedding with tywin and then roose ...sooo if roose wanted 'out' hed have to warn robb in secret , seemingly go ahead with wedding but also secrely have enough men go around to ambush the bolton and karstark.men who later attack them, keep his bride safe and their famit and finaly get the entire force to keep a secret and act drunk before rushing the freys and catching them with doors open...seemns very risky Not really, the freys know that roose is on their side and won't be suspicious that he keeps his men armed and armoured. Robb already distrusted the freys but felt he had no choice, he brought so many men for exactly that reason but the bolton betrayed them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 15 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said: Not really, the freys know that roose is on their side and won't be suspicious that he keeps his men armed and armoured. Robb already distrusted the freys but felt he had no choice, he brought so many men for exactly that reason but the bolton betrayed them. Hmmm itd still be risky esp as the other stark forces have to fake getting drunk and rowdy etc convincingly. Robb himself with his mum.and wife and almost all his officer retinue have to walk into the lions den to sell it ! And theres still the goddamn crossbowmen...itd take some planning an dcrackerjack timing with no slip ups. That said the rewards are big esp as without realising it arya will show up and also an out of work hound! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted June 5, 2023 Author Share Posted June 5, 2023 14 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: Hmmm itd still be risky esp as the other stark forces have to fake getting drunk and rowdy etc convincingly. Robb himself with his mum.and wife and almost all his officer retinue have to walk into the lions den to sell it ! And theres still the goddamn crossbowmen...itd take some planning an dcrackerjack timing with no slip ups. That said the rewards are big esp as without realising it arya will show up and also an out of work hound! they wouldn't need to fake it much, the Great Jon for example did quite well despite being extremely drunk and taken by surprise the fact that the hound shows up mid fight is also a bonus astarkchoice 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 8 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said: they wouldn't need to fake it much, the Great Jon for example did quite well despite being extremely drunk and taken by surprise the fact that the hound shows up mid fight is also a bonus Yeah but hes a fucking monster..the issue is if the freys work out their suprise is blown they raise the gates and we have the issue that gave rise to robb needing to marry in the 1st place..its a formidable castle Yeah far better is arya is there to be possibly bethrothed for allies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted June 5, 2023 Author Share Posted June 5, 2023 4 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: Yeah but hes a fucking monster..the issue is if the freys work out their suprise is blown they raise the gates and we have the issue that gave rise to robb needing to marry in the 1st place..its a formidable castle Yeah far better is arya is there to be possibly bethrothed for allies its quite formidable but most of their men are outside and it only takes one person to get hold of Walder to completely change the situation, I wonder if Arya is sneaky enough to bag the old weasel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 23 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said: its quite formidable but most of their men are outside and it only takes one person to get hold of Walder to completely change the situation, I wonder if Arya is sneaky enough to bag the old weasel Shes no assasin yet and even then shes just a lil girl any grown ass man will toss her to the floor. Most of the frey men actualy stay inside then the scimbags march out in full combat gear and sober into the drunk unprepared and probably unarmoured/umarmed northern forces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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