Maybe Rhaena Targaryen had another child. Where did they go?

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And I actually do like the idea that the kid may have been a son there, and thus one she really had to hide completely.

So if I understand, your vote is for:

1. Maegor's infertility being real and Visenya, desipte her huge role in establishing the seven kingdoms, having no impact whatsoever on future bloodlines.

2. Rhaena having a secret son by Aegon, who was then hidden across the narrow sea among people with Valyrian looks. 

3. Larissa's "Tarth" daughter being irrelevant because Aegon, in spite of his popularity with the ladies, was a loyal husband to Rhaena. He truly did have no children but with Rhaena.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

On 6/13/2023 at 4:24 PM, Lord Varys said:

That strikes one as very unlikely. Gargon may have fucked a lot common women in their wedding nights ... but other noblewomen whose husbands were sworn to Harrenhal is less likely. We never hear about something like that happening while the First Night was still a thing. Perhaps it might make sense to assume that Gargon slept with some knightly women in their wedding nights, but even that would be stupidity. And the rebellion against him seems to have been more a commoner uprising than something backed by the local nobility.

Really this is a digression that should be a separate thread...

Relevant here only if it ties back to Rhaena and/or Visenya's bloodlines:

 

Knightly Houses are still vassals. Gargon attended every wedding in his domain that he knew about, which would have included knights. We don't know much about the origins of House Harroway, but they could have been knights in the Harrenhal domain before being raised to Lords.

More likely though is that when House Qoherys was given the seat during the Conquest, they made several marriage alliances with local Houses to solidify their hold, not just the match with House Tully. Possibly Quenton Qoherys' first wife was a Harroway and they had no sons, but one or more daughters who were not part of the House Qoherys line of succession. Or, Gargon had sisters, aunts or nieces who became Harroways. I am confident that a link exists between the "extinct" House Qoherys and the "extinct" House Harroway and the "extinct" House Strong, and that the link is always through the female line. Similarly, the female line of House Whent passes through Catelyn to the Stark kids, which is part of what makes this discussion actually relevant  House Whent may be gone in name but not in bloodlines.

As for Maegor's purge of the Harroways, I think you exaggerate his thoroughness. It only says he killed all members he could find in a very specific set of locations. Maybe some of them he could not find.

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

@Lord Varys

I suppose another possibility we have not investigated yet is that Larissa Velaryon's daughter was fathered not by Aegon but by Maegor. I know, you really want to believe that Maegor was truly infertile and Tyanna had nothing to do with his lack of heir. But bear with me:

At the time when Larissa became pregnant and was suddenly sent away to Tarth, both Larissa and Maegor were probably in King's Landing. Maegor began serving as Hand of the King for Aenys from 37, and we know that Larissa had sufficient time with Rhaena after 35 to become her close companion and lifelong friend and they were similar in age, so her pregnancy was unlikely to have occurred before 37 (when Rhaena was 14, and Larissa was about same). Furthermore, Larissa's daughter had recently been married in 55, which means she was probably 16-18 years old by then, which fits with the time period when Maegor was Hand.

If Larissa's daughter was Maegor's, then Maegor never knew about it, that is certain. Larissa was sent away in a hurry before anyone knew she was pregnant, including her new Tarth husband. Furthermore, as Larissa's child a bastard of Maegor's would not have set off any red flags for her appearance. Larissa was Rhaena's cousin and had Valyrian looks. The same also applies of course if this girl was fathered by Aegon.

I just can't shake the hunch that somewhere, somehow, Visenya's line persisted. Visenya having other children beyond Maegor is hard to argue for as she had too much visibility throughout her marriage to conceal any pregnancies (Though I suppose it is possible she had a bastard BEFORE she married Aegon, and this was a factor in his clear preference for Rhaenys). Still, Maegor having a bastard or two he knew nothing about is the most viable path whereby Visenya's line could have continued. Larissa's daughter is already strongly hinted to be a Targaryen bastard, so why not consider she was Maegor's?

This daughter married Lord Estermont. He was already old when they married, so unclear if she had any Estermont children, or if, instead, her line continued via remarriage after his death in another family or even yet again via the bastard passed off as legitimate route. After all, when one has an elderly husband who requires an heir...

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

The birds are chirping on this one.

Well my vote is for the following:

1. Maegor had a child he never knew about, who may or may not have been Larissa Velaryon's "Tarth" daughter AND Aegon and Rhaena had a third child born in 44, known only to very close allies, and hidden with a family who had Valyrian features. This adopting family might have been in Westeros, as several Westerosi families had by then married with Velaryons or other Valyrian families from Essos. Rhaena never knew where the child went, and may have been told they died.

OR...

2. Aegon had a bastard before the war, who might have been Larissa's Tarth daughter, AND Rhaena had Maegor's only child, born before her brother's corronation, who she and her family in King's Landing and on Driftmark kept secret to protect peace in the Realm and the security of Jaehaerys's reign. Rhaena had no love for this child as it was Maegor's. She never sought the child out and considered Aerea and Rhaella her only true children, but she may have been quite aware of where the child was.

 

All 3 bloodlines therefore continued, but were not part of the main Targaryen line, at least not immediately. However one later merged with the Blackfyre line and/or Saera's line in Essos, while another merged with Alyn and Baela's line, and another merged with Rhaena (née Targaryen) Hightower's line.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Hippocras

[The Wondering Wolf]

In my opinion Larissa wasn't pregnant at all, but there are a lot of hints that she and Rhaena were much more closer than it was considered acceptable. I guess they were caught doing inappropriate things and Alyssa sent her niece away to avoid some scandal. Larissa's father then quickly married her off to prevent her from further inappropriate behaviour.

[Lord Varys]

34 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

In my opinion Larissa wasn't pregnant at all, but there are a lot of hints that she and Rhaena were much more closer than it was considered acceptable. I guess they were caught doing inappropriate things and Alyssa sent her niece away to avoid some scandal. Larissa's father then quickly married her off to prevent her from further inappropriate behaviour.

Yes, that is the indication there.

Alyssa Velaryon was clearly annoyed by the (public) affection her eldest daughter showed her favorites. I don't think she was annoyed about them sleeping together - as it is quite common for female royalty to have bedmaids like Cersei and Dany do - but Rhaena may have publicly kissed her in an inappropriate manner or, more likely perhaps, given her too valuable gifts or other inappropriate favors which would have been a potential cause of friction and jealousy at court.

But I think we do can imagine that the later issues between Rhaena and her mother do indeed have to do more with her opposition to Rhaena's romantic and sexual preferences and less with Alyssa not being invited to her third wedding.

On 6/13/2023 at 5:20 PM, Hippocras said:

So if I understand, your vote is for:

1. Maegor's infertility being real and Visenya, desipte her huge role in establishing the seven kingdoms, having no impact whatsoever on future bloodlines.

2. Rhaena having a secret son by Aegon, who was then hidden across the narrow sea among people with Valyrian looks.

3. Larissa's "Tarth" daughter being irrelevant because Aegon, in spite of his popularity with the ladies, was a loyal husband to Rhaena. He truly did have no children but with Rhaena.

Maegor clearly had fertility issues, but I'm not denying that he likely impregnated Elinor and Jeyne. Alys Harroway may be another case ... or not, depending if Tyanna's intrigues were based on facts or completely invented. But the notion that Visenya or Maegor had any other descendants is not supported by the text in any way. In fact, the text seems to be sending the message that their bloodline was clearly defective and House Targaryen was nearly destroyed because Visenya had to put Maegor on the throne and Maegor had to insist to father children of his own.

I do like your idea that Rhaena being pregnant again was what may have caused her to not join Aegon in his campaign ... but I did not want to say a child of theirs would have been sent across the Narrow Sea. I meant that hiding a child with Valyrian features in plain sight could have worked if whoever took care of it on Rhaena's behalf eventually handed it as a fondling to a commoner family of Lysene or Volantene (or general Free Cities) roots in one of the big cities - Lannisport or Oldtown, I'd say. Such people would be living there as Tobho Mott indicates, who seems to be Qohorik by birth.

Regarding Gargon, I doubt that he actually harassed many lordly or knightly bannermen/vassals of his. Could be, but that would be bigger stupidity - and the uprising against him seems to have been more commoner-based than being supported by his noble vassals.

Lord Quenton had two sons and grandson Gargon when he got Harrenhal, so he could also have had daughters or granddaughters eventually ... but it seems Gargon himself had no (legitimate) children, so I actually don't think the guy fathered (m)any bastards on his First Night ladies. He may have had fertility issues as well.

I do think the rather odd name Prentys for the later Lord Tully could indicate he had Valyrian roots through the Qoherys line. Edmyn Tully strikes one as an older and more experienced man during the Conquest, so it seems not unlikely that his heir ended up with a daughter or granddaughter of Lord Quenton in the years after the Conquest, with the match arranged before Lord Quenton Qoherys died. The fact that Quenton took one of Edmyn's daughters to wife wouldn't have caused any problems there.

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

In my opinion Larissa wasn't pregnant at all, but there are a lot of hints that she and Rhaena were much more closer than it was considered acceptable. I guess they were caught doing inappropriate things and Alyssa sent her niece away to avoid some scandal. Larissa's father then quickly married her off to prevent her from further inappropriate behaviour.

Except that we know she had a daughter. That daughter was married by the year 55.

[The Wondering Wolf]

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

Except that we know she had a daughter. That daughter was married by the year 55.

I don't see how this supports your point. Larissa was married to the second son of Lord Tarth and had a daughter with him.

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I don't see how this supports your point. Larissa was married to the second son of Lord Tarth and had a daughter with him.

Yes, and could even possibly be his daughter. I am not pretending that anything is confirmed either way.

It is simply that in the year 35 when Larissa became Rhaena's companion, she was around the same age, so about 12 years old. She then spent long enough as Rhaena's companion to become fast friends for life, so at least a year, probably more. The daughter was therefore not born before 37, but was old enough to marry before 55. For Larissa, 14 years old is possible, but unusual for getting married, even by Westerosi standards. Normally they would wait until she was "of age" so 16.

If Larissa was married off when she was less than 16, it does pose the question of why. Shenanigans with Rhaena I fully agree would lead to her being sent away from Rhaena, but would not necessitate her getting married so fast and so young. A pregnancy is certainly suspected there. Particularly when we know that Aegon was popular with the ladies and did not shy away from their attentions. etc.

If Larissa's daughter is noone and means nothing, it begs the question of why she needed to be mentioned at all. Also, it begs the question of why GRRM bothered to tell us that Aegon did not shy away from the ladies' attentions. And finally, it begs the question of why this young girl was then married off in or just before the year 55 to a very old man. Being a suspected bastard would certainly be one reason why they would choose someone so old for her.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Hippocras

[The Wondering Wolf]

16 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

It is simply that in the year 35 when Larissa became Rhaena's companion, she was around the same age, so about 12 years old.

We can see with Margaerys's ladies that not all of them are of the same age, so Larissa could have been easily two or three years older than Rhaena.

19 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Shenanigans with Rhaena I fully agree would lead to her being sent away from Rhaena, but would not necessitate her getting married so fast and so young.

If Larissa's father had wanted to make sure his daughter wouldn't get involved again in whatever she had been, he could have decided to marry her off quickly. The idea of women needing a husband to drive out inappropriate behavior can be found in the main books, too.

38 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

If Larissa's daughter is noone and means nothing, it begs the question of why she needed to be mentioned at all.

A lot of people who aren't important at all get mentioned in F&B.

 

[Hippocras]

2 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

We can see with Margaerys's ladies that not all of them are of the same age, so Larissa could have been easily two or three years older than Rhaena.

If Larissa's father had wanted to make sure his daughter wouldn't get involved again in whatever she had been, he could have decided to marry her off quickly. The idea of women needing a husband to drive out inappropriate behavior can be found in the main books, too.

A lot of people who aren't important at all get mentioned in F&B.

 

You have no response to why the daughter was then married off to a very old man.

[The Wondering Wolf]

32 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

You have no response to why the daughter was then married off to a very old man.

The daughter of a second son marries an aged lord. I don't see anything suspicious about that. Theomore Manderly had three wives, before Alysanne wanted to marry Viserra to him. Walder Frey gets one young wife after another. Leyton Hightower has his fourth wife now, and she's rather young, too. And these are only the examples I remember right now.

[Hippocras]

33 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

The daughter of a second son marries an aged lord. I don't see anything suspicious about that. Theomore Manderly had three wives, before Alysanne wanted to marry Viserra to him. Walder Frey gets one young wife after another. Leyton Hightower has his fourth wife now, and she's rather young, too. And these are only the examples I remember right now.

Viserra's betrothal was both an alliance and a punishment. As was Sylva Santagar's recent marriage to the latest very old Lord Estermont (seems to be a pattern of Estermonts getting very old and marrying suspect young women). So sure, it doesn't HAVE to mean anything, except usually it does.

Larissa was a Velaryon with recent Targaryen ancestry. She was companion to the woman everyone expected would be the future queen. Even if she did have scandalous behaviour, that connection to the future queen Rhaena was nothing to shrug at. So Larissa was a highly desirable catch. But the second son of Tarth was a hastily arranged choice, not an important strategic alliance. The explanation that they needed to get her away from Rhaena is insufficient. As for the daughter, given that being married off to someone very old is usually either a punishment, or a VERY important strategic advantage, or a last resort for a girl who is not blessed with good looks, we seriously need to question why GRRM specifically told us that the girl married someone very old. It is not as if this Lord Estermont had any OTHER role in the Fire and Blood story EXCEPT to be the very old man this girl had just married. All the story really needed to tell us, for what concerned Rhaena, was that the girl had recently married an Estermont. Any Estermont would have done the trick. There was absolutely no need to make him old, except to suggest there was some kind of scandal there, that was not just Larissa's scandal, but that also implicated the daughter.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Hippocras

[The Wondering Wolf]

20 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

So sure, it doesn't HAVE to mean anything, except usually it does.

What about the wives of Lord Frey for example? There must be many elderly lords all around the realm who want to marry again (all these guys Doran presented to Arianne) and many of them would marry a young girl whose dad is glad to find a place for his daughter where she's taken care of. 

31 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Larissa was a Velaryon with recent Targaryen ancestry.

It looks like she was the great-great-great-granddaughter of a male Targaryen. The fandom is much more obsessed with characters who have a drop of Targaryen blood than the realm is. I have to admit I don't like all these secret bastard ancestry theories, especially not the ones which say the bastard's line eventually marries back into some great house. In my opinion that's most unlikely.

39 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

She was companion to the woman everyone expected would be the future queen.

Her ties to court were just cut off, so not sure this former relations would mean anything.

40 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

The explanation that they needed to get her away from Rhaena is insufficient.

I've already given my reasoning regarding that one. Larrisa was involved in an affair of inappropriate behaviour, and to prevent this happening again with someone else, she was married off.

48 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

we seriously need to question why GRRM specifically told us that the girl married someone very old

I think it's a little reference to the current Lord Estermont, which doesn't necessarily mean that back then something suspicious was going on, too.

I think you would have a point that something was going on about Larissa's dismissal if it wasn't heavily implied Rhaena had very close relations to her "favourites". 

[Hippocras]

On 6/18/2023 at 10:57 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

What about the wives of Lord Frey for example? There must be many elderly lords all around the realm who want to marry again (all these guys Doran presented to Arianne) and many of them would marry a young girl whose dad is glad to find a place for his daughter where she's taken care of. 

I think it is pretty obvious houw Walder Frey got his brides. He always takes a toll. The man is incapable of simply cooperating with anyone. The poor girls' families apparently also needed to cross the bridge (or something similar).

As for Arianne, we know why she was given those choices! Come on. You are really struggling here. She was offered old people specifically so she would NOT accept, because she was secretly already betrothed to Viserys.

On 6/18/2023 at 10:57 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

It looks like she was the great-great-great-granddaughter of a male Targaryen.

Are you one of those people who only looks at the men? Hope not. Daemon Velaryon was probably Valaena's brother, and we know Velaena had a Targaryen mother. We don't know Larissa's exact relationship to Daemon, and there are several missing names in the tree where more links with the Royal family tree are possible, even resonably likely. We will need more complete trees to know to what degree Larissa was Targaryen but there is no question at all that she was Targaryen descent.

The fact is that GRRM leaves thread hanging all the time, deliberately. He does it because he may find while writing later books that he very much needs a certain person's line to continue or a certain relationship to have a strong basis. There is absolutely no question therefore that he wants us to at least consider it possible that Larissa's daughter was not actually a Tarth. As for whether or not that eventually matters, I don't think even GRRM necessarily knows yet.

On 6/18/2023 at 10:57 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

Her ties to court were just cut off, so not sure this former relations would mean anything.

It would if she became queen. Her ties would then be revived for the good of her former and current families. That is the way the influence game works.

On 6/18/2023 at 10:57 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

I think you would have a point that something was going on about Larissa's dismissal if it wasn't heavily implied Rhaena had very close relations to her "favourites". 

I truly fail to see why you think one excludes the other. Larissa being a favourite of Rhaena's does not even necessarily mean that she liked women, it only means that Rhaena liked her. And even if she did enjoy women sexually, she may have been bisexual and ALSO been interested in the attractive young men at court. Finally, even if she was 100% lesbian, that would not stop her from getting raped, if someone was going to do that. And Maegor at least was definitely the sort to do that, and even by then had the biggest dragon and the position of Hand of the King.

 

I would find it easier to believe that Larissa's child was not a bastard if she had had more children. Yet she seems to have only had the one in her entire marriage, who seems to have been born suspiciously close to the beginning of the marriage.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Hippocras

[The Wondering Wolf]

34 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Are you one of those people who only looks at the men? Hope not.

No need to get patronising. Assuming that Larissa was second Daemon's daughter or niece, she would have been the great-great-granddaughter of Valaena's mother (also assuming Valaena was first Daemon's sister). Not what I would call recent Targaryen ancestry.

Now you can find reasons for any match between an aged lord and a young lady, doesn't change the fact these matches exist (and Walder Frey wouldn't have any power over the Rosbys or Farrings). Those lords remarry all the times (Unwin Peake, Walter Brownhill, Jasper Wylde) and they find nobles who are willing to give away their daughters, who in turn get taken care of. It's not always a great deal for the fathers, but getting rid of daughters seems to be an important point.

59 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

I truly fail to see why you think one excludes the other.

So ten or eleven year old Aegon impregnates the favourite girl of his sister which results in her being sent away and Rhaena doesn't care? Ok, you can say she somehow didn't know, the issue of Aegon's age remains. Or Maegor raped a girl without any repercussions? He wasn't even a dragonrider back then. I just don't see it.

But we don't have to discuss this topic to death, I just wanted to raise my objections and I think I did.

[Hippocras]

16 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

No need to get patronising. Assuming that Larissa was second Daemon's daughter or niece, she would have been the great-great-granddaughter of Valaena's mother (also assuming Valaena was first Daemon's sister). Not what I would call recent Targaryen ancestry.

Now you can find reasons for any match between an aged lord and a young lady, doesn't change the fact these matches exist (and Walder Frey wouldn't have any power over the Rosbys or Farrings). Those lords remarry all the times (Unwin Peake, Walter Brownhill, Jasper Wylde) and they find nobles who are willing to give away their daughters, who in turn get taken care of. It's not always a great deal for the fathers, but getting rid of daughters seems to be an important point.

So ten or eleven year old Aegon impregnates the favourite girl of his sister which results in her being sent away and Rhaena doesn't care? Ok, you can say she somehow didn't know, the issue of Aegon's age remains. Or Maegor raped a girl without any repercussions? He wasn't even a dragonrider back then. I just don't see it.

But we don't have to discuss this topic to death, I just wanted to raise my objections and I think I did.

I am not trying to be patronizing, I just get frustrated that discussions of bloodlines are so often woman-blind and over-focused on family names, which women conceal. My point was simply that there are a lot of unnamed women in that Velaryon family tree (and the Targaryen tree), and a lot of times those secrets in GRRM's trees are not oversights, but concealed information. Not always, but often enough that the unnamed mothers need to be considered possibly just as relevant as the named men. For example, we know very little of Alarra Massey, but we do know that Triston Massey had closer ties to Dragonstone than to Storm's End during the Conquest. What were those ties? It does seem to hint at some kind of family connection. Did Aerion Targaryen have sisters? Not yet revealed, but seems likely when you look at the apparent closeness of Triston and Aegon. So Alarra may well have been Aethan Velaryon's cousin. Then Daemon Velaryon the younger may very well have also married some kind of Targ descended cousin, Massey, Velaryon, or yet another family of relevance.

My primary reason for feeling irritated with this discussion, is that you seem unwilling to consider it even possible that Larissa's daughter was a bastard, when we all know how GRRM works:. Gardening. Leaving strings hanging he can pick up later if he wants to, or not. I am not the one trying to shut down possibilities here. You are. And there is absolutely nothing you can say that makes it any more or less likely that GRRM wanted to leave that possibility open. So why are you trying to close it?

Deny it all you want, but that girl being married off to an old man, and the fact that we were told this detail about such an utterly irrelevant character (seemingly) is a red flag that GRRM may want to come back to this character at another time.

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Hippocras

[The Wondering Wolf]

4 hours ago, Hippocras said:

My primary reason for feeling irritated with this discussion, is that you seem unwilling to consider it even possible that Larissa's daughter was a bastard

You've presented your theory, building assumption on assumption on assumption (which by itself is fine), but you are irritated that someone doesn't buy it? I think having different opinions and reasonings is the core of a discussion board. But I've got the feeling it's getting unnecessarily personal now, so just let us leave it here.

[Hippocras]

On 6/23/2023 at 7:30 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

You've presented your theory, building assumption on assumption on assumption (which by itself is fine), but you are irritated that someone doesn't buy it? I think having different opinions and reasonings is the core of a discussion board. But I've got the feeling it's getting unnecessarily personal now, so just let us leave it here.

I don't have a theory! This is not a treatise. This is a discussion of possibilities. Only GRRM knows the answers.

You are in complete denial about marriage to very old people in Westeros. You act like I need to prove something to you, but you can not come up with a single example of it being actually NORMAL to marry off a girl to someone that old. Yes, we don't know the full story of Walder Frey's various wives, but we certainly know enough to know that it was coercion. You say Arianne is an example when it clearly is not, you say that the Estermont marriage is a nod to the current Lord Estermont and nothing more, but why would he need a nod at all? Neither the current very old Lord Estermont, nor Sylva Santagar are at all significant characters. There is zero need to make any sort of nod to them.

The burden of proof is on you, not me.

If you think marriage to people far too old to be reasonable matches is normal and appropriate, give just ONE example that is actually reasonable, and is neither a punishment (ie. Lysa Arryn) or a very important strategic match advancing the wife's family interests significantly (ie. Alicent and Viserys). There is not a single 15 year old girl, I guarantee you, who considers themselves "taken care of" when forced to have sex with a man 30-50 years their senior. This is NOT about the daughters being "taken care of".

Edited July 6, 2023 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

Ok then,

So as it seems noone is able to prove that marriage between a young girl and a very old man is normal in Westeros in the absence of an element of punishment, scandal or family coercion, we must conclude that there was some kind of secret or scandal behind the marriage of Larissa Velaryon's daughter, quite young, to the very old Lord Estermont. 

As already outlined above, a very valid explanation is that Larissa's daughter was actually a Tarth in name only and was really a bastard. If people have any other likely explanation for the sequence of events surrounding not just Larissa, but also her daughter and the otherwise irrelevant set of details we have about this girl, please let me know. I am otherwise personally inclined to believe that GRRM left this thread hanging as a hint of dragon bloodlines being concealed in other families via the fog of history, bastardy, and the female line.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Hippocras