Faith of the Seven political activity facts and theories thread (drafts dump; new p1 tbd)

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, Kasamira said:

I couldn’t really see where you explained that unless you’re using “organized” and “stable” (below)

Oh that. I haven't really got to it yet, stuck with mariner courses and heresiology, you know, usual Internet topics.

2 hours ago, Kasamira said:

None of our noble POVs seem interested in currying the favor of the Faith either (not becoming patrons to to monasteries/abbeys, not sponsoring artists, etc…) but the general attitude by Tyrion as Hand is… well, dismissive to say the least 

This is part of why I hadn't started p2 yet. The Fot7 is ... so strange. It seems like the Catholic Church at first glance, but it doesn't act the part. Either this is GRRM satirizing organized religion, or this is a plot point.

2 hours ago, Kasamira said:

smallfolk don’t know/are unaware of the Faith’s teachings on this foundational issue. 

 This is comparatively a smaller problem. Roman smallfolk weren't sure what 'the Church's' teachings on whether Jesus was man or god or both or neither was about, after all. They usually just follow their local priest's interpretation, which makes religion-related urban mob violence fairly commonplace in the Late Roman Empire.

[Kasamira]

20 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

The Fot7 is ... so strange. It seems like the Catholic Church at first glance, but it doesn't act the part.

Agreed, I get the feeling (and this is purely vibes based from the tone of the books) that Martin was initially uninterested in portraying the Faith but somewhere along the way it became interesting to him.(Catelyn’s chapter in the sept where she sees people she knows in the faces of the seven comes to mind as a turning point but who knows) 

Martin’s references and parallels with the Seven and Catholicism are very “window dressing”. It’s like he got the overall look right, but once you pull back the curtain there’s not much there. Imo this is most apparent in F&B, in the main series I could understand. Our Fot7 POVs have much bigger issues than waxing about church bureaucracy (except Cersei in feast lol) 
 

Dany’s trek across the Red Waste in ACOK is like a mashup of prophetic imagery, but like Qarth itself, it’s a lot of bells and whistles that melts away like a mirage 

20 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Either this is GRRM satirizing organized religion,

I think some aspects are satire? Like how in ACOK the HS is so easily removed/bribed. But I think it’s more… dismissiveness/disdain(?) on Martin’s part than satire. Because we do see a steady improvement from AGOT with bad nun stereotypes in full display, to the powerhouse that is the Forsaken (I swear the man must have written it with Augustine’s Confessions beside him). 
 

On the Trinity, you’re totally right that the average person in the Early Church wouldn’t have known/cared all that much if Jesus was god or man or both. I was trying to think of a comparison that had an asoiaf analogue and was very well known, but since Martin’s stated portrayal of the Faith is very high/late medieval I think the Trinity comparison works. 

It’s one of the things that also frustrates me a bit about Martin, but was also very revealing 

Quote

“he compared it to a shamrock being a Irish Catholic symbol of the holy Trinity, three parts which make up one thing.” 

And 
 

Quote

So, I did that (based it on the Trinity) except I made it seven instead of three. I have the whole where we have the seven gods, we have seven personas, instead of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. 

I hope it doesn’t sound like quibbling over Martin’s verbiage but he’s wrong. He’s describing Modal monarchianism not trinitarianism which is what the Catholic Church has practiced since… well, Nicea in the 4th century. The Trinity aren’t three aspects or faces of god and splitting their characteristics into “personas” is Martin fundamentally misunderstanding the Nicene creed. The foundational creed of medieval and modern Christianity. 

And that’s insanely useful to know! this misunderstanding of the Trinity (or rather Catholicism’s interpretation of the Trinity) matters because it gives the seven more context as well as Martin’s vision of them vs other in-world religions. 
 

(Off topic but, I will say his writings on the origin of the Seven, out of Andalos, really really threw me for a loop and I’m still a bit bewildered by them)

[Hugorfonics]

22 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Either this is GRRM satirizing organized religion, or this is a plot point.

Yea, I think it's a bit of both. Mean septas, greedy septons, bizzare orders like the silent sisters. 

Totally plot tho, I think.  Because the thing is in our universe, back in the day, church beat state and while Aegon may have btk to the faith, his children didn't. And whatever pull or fancy bureaucracy or anything requiring a sharper object then a butter knife that the faith had, was long gone and forgotten by the end of the old kings reign. Surly now too, hundreds of years later, or maybe not. Septons write, maybe some secret orders or codes exist, and now as for anything sharper then a butter knife,  thanks Cersei!

They're always there, kinda in the background, next to the tapestry, left of the bard, right of the fool and exiled king. It looks the part. But that they have any sway in politics like their real life counter part, or that like all roads lead to Rome/ OldTown is not a thing. Maybe before Maegor? 

But, it's not like no roads lead to Old Town, and when some dont, surley all ravens do. I wonder which grey rat was the first to lay its nest there. 

[SaffronLady]

14 hours ago, Kasamira said:

Our Fot7 POVs have much bigger issues than waxing about church bureaucracy

From what my admittedly limited memory recalls, it's not a problem as small as that. The septons are ... not acting. I don't want the highborn characters suddenly "waxing about" the Fot7 and the septons, the septons should be throwing their weight around, everywhere and on every topic. Like, the High Septon or his delegate should be present on the small council. The chief septon of the riverlands should demand Robb Stark convert to the Fot7 in exchange for crowning him as King of the Trident. And wherever they are, whoever they serve, septons should constantly be pushing for tax-exempt status.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But that they have any sway in politics like their real life counter part

Being compared to Catholic Church and all that, even when defanged by the Old King and living under the terror of dragons, the Fot7 should still have some sway, if by nothing else than they can force the Targaryens to choose between ruling seven kingdoms or ashes and cinders.

[Hugorfonics]

52 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Being compared to Catholic Church and all that, even when defanged by the Old King and living under the terror of dragons, the Fot7 should still have some sway, if by nothing else than they can force the Targaryens to choose between ruling seven kingdoms or ashes and cinders.

But they can't.  That's I think the whole issue. Pre defang, who the hell knows, it's not ludicrous I suppose to think then the faith didn't command some type of godly strength, I am a bit skeptical about that tho, I'd say it's closer to modern times, well pre Cersei times. But, yea defangs are useless, even that kid at the inn had a crossbow. With no muscle the faith can literally achieve nothing. 

They're comparable to the catholic church but they're not them. Like Westeros isn't England. The biggest difference I think is, aside from the muscle (which is a huge part, the middle ages is pretty much just priests and their muscles ) exactly this, the magnitude.  Varys offers a riddle, door number one, two, or salvation.  It's a bit of a riddle today and perhaps in the middle ages as well but, not really.  Back in the day nearly everyone, or at least that's what's been passed down to us by the literate priests, would save the priest and their soul. But in westeros it's more like rock paper scissors. 

That the Riverlands leading monk, which I'm pretty sure isn't a thing (Although there is a council of faithful so maybe one of em is there?) would need Robb to convert I think is totally nonsensical in westeros. Perhaps not other religions, but the faith, modern faith, pre cersei faith, doesn't care. I remember I was part of a discussion that Stannis' impiety would hinder him and I have no idea where that was pulled up. Wyman says the exact opposite. The other religions are very aggressive but the faith seems downright approving of other people's beliefs, they swear by the old and new. Catholicism literally means the opposite. 

Regarding taxes, you need muscle to refuse. Like Lysa did, which iirc is the only mention of taxes in the series, and even that was a bit much for me

 

 

[Alester Florent]

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Totally plot tho, I think.  Because the thing is in our universe, back in the day, church beat state and while Aegon may have btk to the faith, his children didn't.

Did it though? Yes, the church won its battle with the Empire decisively, at least in the Empire's medieval incarnation, but elsewhere its record was a lot more mixed. Even at its peak of power, the church struggled to meaningfully assert itself politically in France and England, and less than forty years after Conradin's execution, Sciarra Colonna walked into Anagni on behalf of the French king and punched the Pope in the face. And after that, in future battles between state and church it was pretty much one-way traffic in favour of the state.

[Hugorfonics]

14 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Did it though? Yes, the church won its battle with the Empire decisively, at least in the Empire's medieval incarnation, but elsewhere its record was a lot more mixed. Even at its peak of power, the church struggled to meaningfully assert itself politically in France and England, and less than forty years after Conradin's execution, Sciarra Colonna walked into Anagni on behalf of the French king and punched the Pope in the face. And after that, in future battles between state and church it was pretty much one-way traffic in favour of the state.

Yea for sure. Not a knockout blow and the state of course won, and then later fully separated itself from Church which is like pretty much game over. That I think is more or less where we stand in the 7 kingdoms today, pre cersei lol. 

Question, your good at these things lol, John "gave" England to the papecy, did this continue in like Henry's lifetime and beyond or was there a formal take back?

[Kasamira]

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

I don't want the highborn characters suddenly "waxing about" the Fot7 and the septons, the septons should be throwing their weight around, everywhere and on every topic. Like, the High Septon or his delegate should be present on the small council.

I was thinking more about how religion doesn’t seem to have any overarching presence in believers lives. There are occasional references to Maidens Day and Sansa goes to pray in the sept during Blackwater but there are very few internal thoughts about the gods, nor are there outward symbols of their faith (eg crystal pendants, seven sided cut jewelry). The medieval church was a constant passive presence but I’m hard pressed to find examples that aren’t utilitarian (Sansa using the godswood as a meeting place or Margaery using her charities to gain wider support. But the latter example is mostly Faith adjacent.) 

I totally agree that they should have a small council seat, the fact that they don’t, especially with the High Septon and the most devout being located in KL. 

[Alester Florent]

38 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea for sure. Not a knockout blow and the state of course won, and then later fully separated itself from Church which is like pretty much game over. That I think is more or less where we stand in the 7 kingdoms today, pre cersei lol. 

Question, your good at these things lol, John "gave" England to the papecy, did this continue in like Henry's lifetime and beyond or was there a formal take back?

Henry III reaffirmed his vassal status (or rather, his ministers did on his behalf) after John's death. It was formally rescinded (in fact, unilaterally voided as invalid by Parliament) during the reign of Edward III, but it effectively lost relevance after the accession of Edward I.

[Kasamira]

39 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

That the Riverlands leading monk, which I'm pretty sure isn't a thing

Don’t want to speak for saffron, but think Saffron might have meant more like “there should be a septon who raised a stink about this, and the fact we aren’t seeing it at all means the Faith isn’t even a factor much less a person at the negotiating table.”  

like we do have some evidence that of hierarchy within the Seven, the HS is elected by an analogue to the college of cardinals but we know precious little about them

one thing that particularly stood out to me while rereading F&B was that, like our own history, the Faith governed itself. It doesn’t now though, iirc Jaehaerys made it so the faith is answerable in the Crown’s courts. Which is an insane blow to their temporal power! But I can’t figure out if Martin knows that, because it’s one line and then it’s never brought up again.

Sometimes I’ll think Martin is making a statement about symbols of power/their importance (especially with Maegor because of the Blackfyre debates) only for it to be undercut soon after. For example, when Aegon was crowned by Visenya and hailed by Rhaenys— its a clear message that they derive their power from themselves. From their dragons. When the HS later crowns Aegon, it seemed like a total Charlemagne reference. Then Aenys goes so far as to get a special Faith of the seven crown signifying how much power the Targaryens are handing over to the Faith/affirming that they are monarchs by authority of the Seven  

Then Maegor was crowned by Visenya and I was loving it. Completely sure that this was a statement about Targaryens being above the literal “avatar” of the seven.

Then Maegor went and got himself anointed and blessed as king by the High Septon. 

And I know that it’s a total farce that the Faith is exerting any kind of authority by crowning Maegor but…. but it should be obvious to Maegor that that’s what it conveys. Why would Maegor want the Seven’s approval when his entire reign thus far is centered on the fact he doesn’t need nor want it 

Then Alyssa and Rogar are determined to get the HS’s approval by having him install Jaehaerys as king. I think it would have been more impactful if this was held more in direct contrast to Maegor 

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

With no muscle the faith can literally achieve nothing. 

If the Fot7 is anything like the Catholic Church, it should be vulnerable against rulers with powerful armies, yes, but that is very, very far from being unable to achieve anything. I will leave detailing that for p2 though.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

They're comparable to the catholic church but they're not them.

Yes. Agreed.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

That the Riverlands leading monk, which I'm pretty sure isn't a thing

Yes. Sadly, the Fot7 has no known regional hierarchy. We do know of individual septons gunning for the top, but that was like ... one case, and he was in King's Landing early in the Old King's reign.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

would need Robb to convert I think is totally nonsensical in westeros.

The Andals did make a habit of cutting down weirwoods, and now a guy who prays to one wants to be their king. The Fot7 should demand something, even if not conversion.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

the faith seems downright approving of other people's beliefs, they swear by the old and new.

Strange. Going by this alone, Stannis turning to a god that is neither old nor new should have had political consequences, even if this could explain Robb avoiding any.

52 minutes ago, Kasamira said:

I was thinking more about how religion doesn’t seem to have any overarching presence in believers lives.

Troubling, too. Religion should have been as relevant as modern jargon like "democracy" and "Nazism" now in the assumed time period.

2 minutes ago, Kasamira said:

Don’t want to speak for saffron, but think Saffron might have meant more like “there should be a septon who raised a stink about this, and the fact we aren’t seeing it at all means the Faith isn’t even a factor much less a person at the negotiating table.”  

In this instance, I confirm your line of thought. This was what I implied, though I probably should have spelled it out.

4 minutes ago, Kasamira said:

And I know that it’s a total farce that the Faith is exerting any kind of authority by crowning Maegor but…. but it should be obvious to Maegor that that’s what it conveys. Why would Maegor want the Seven’s approval when his entire reign thus far is centered on the fact he doesn’t need nor want it 

More ironic that Maegor's reign became one of the most destructive to the Fot7, possibly second only to Jaehaerys I, who wielded a metaphorical institutional wrecking ball.

6 minutes ago, Kasamira said:

Then Alyssa and Rogar are determined to get the HS’s approval by having him install Jaehaerys as king. I think it would have been more impactful if this was held more in direct contrast to Maegor 

I think it would have been more impactful if GRRM bothered to show why the HS and the Fot7's approval by extension was necessary. The Targs had dragons, and according to Ran their royal bureaucracy was functional enough to manage the realm. The Fot7 remains window dressing.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Kasamira said:

Don’t want to speak for saffron, but think Saffron might have meant more like “there should be a septon who raised a stink about this, and the fact we aren’t seeing it at all means the Faith isn’t even a factor much less a person at the negotiating table.”  

Yea for sure, because they're not. In like the days before the war (which is the majority of the Sunset kingdoms history) I think it's very likely that there would be a septon with great sway at every court, I'm thinking something along the lines of today's maesters. 

In this specific instance though I don't think even then it'd be applicable. Pretty much immediately after Tywin and Jaimes unprovoked attack was pushed back the lords of the Riverlands made Robb their king along with his northern lords. The septons could only have as much say in this matter as the trees back home, or Edmure Tully, not to mention Hoster lol.

1 hour ago, Kasamira said:

Then Maegor went and got himself anointed and blessed as king by the High Septon. 

And I know that it’s a total farce that the Faith is exerting any kind of authority by crowning Maegor but…. but it should be obvious to Maegor that that’s what it conveys. Why would Maegor want the Seven’s approval when his entire reign thus far is centered on the fact he doesn’t need nor want it 

Then Alyssa and Rogar are determined to get the HS’s approval by having him install Jaehaerys as king. I think it would have been more impactful if this was held more in direct contrast to Maegor 

Yea that's weird. I haven't read FaB in mad long and not nearly as many times as asoiaf, but strange.  

I guess the power of the faith at the time was that strong that even on wounded knee the king had to act strategic.  Maegors actions I think deserve to be criticized as he lost so, what'd he do wrong? The old king tho succesfully buries the faith so his preliminary moves I guess worked out. 

I think this is a strong history lesson for the Sparrow. Dance with the one who brought ya, because when you start making alliances and playing the game there's only two options. Cersei said that, conveniently she's the one who brought them to the dance. Nothing else convenient about their relationship but for their sake it better be enough because I'm pretty sure they're all they got. 

 

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

If the Fot7 is anything like the Catholic Church, it should be vulnerable against rulers with powerful armies, yes, but that is very, very far from being unable to achieve anything. I will leave detailing that for p2 though.

Can't wait.

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

Yes. Sadly, the Fot7 has no known regional hierarchy. We do know of individual septons gunning for the top, but that was like ... one case, and he was in King's Landing early in the Old King's reign.

Right, exactly. Hard to go gunning without guns.

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

Strange. Going by this alone, Stannis turning to a god that is neither old nor new should have had political consequences, even if this could explain Robb avoiding any.

Yea and it's not like Stannis doesn't torch everything he sees, from Storms End to the Wall, but he keeps getting more and more recruits from all different types of faiths. 

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

The Fot7 remains window dressing.

Yea, because it is? Right? I mean this is now a bit spiritual but I sorta belive in the Old Gods because he's a kid named Bran and I recognize the magic that the red priests are able to do, though I'm more then skeptic about their beliefs. But the 7 I always thought of as like, window dressing.  

[SaffronLady]

27 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Hard to go gunning without guns.

I was referring to the KL septon gunning for the place of High Septon. Given GRRM's many chains on the Fot7, that'd probably be as far as he could go, since he doesn't have much of punch to gain even more power.

[SaffronLady]

Looking back at the opening post, most of what's in there is what I want to put up in part 2. Now I need to think of rewriting this thread's entire op...