R + A = D or V

[Jeff Claburn]

Was Jon swapped for another baby by Ned, and if so, who?

Yes! I think it was Val but it could have been Dany. But I do think it was one or the other…and the baby in question is Jon’s real half sister (instead of Sansa or Arya)!

Val makes the most sense in terms of proximity to the North, as well as the fact that she is already developing a romantic relationship with Jon—given George’s fondness for Targaryen incest.

Dany makes the most sense in terms of her essential importance to the story and key role in every book.

Now for the explanation of how this is all possible!

The Surrogate Mother Hypothesis

The theory that I personally created is that Rhaegar and Elia agreed together to look for a surrogate mother in order to have the third head of the dragon, since Elia could not medically survive carrying a third Targaryen child. They would have preferred a women who was Dornish, if possible, and a woman from a magical family, if possible.

They ended up with two candidates who both got pregnant by accident:

1. The first candidate was Ashara Dayne, suggested and brought to Rhaegar and Elia by his best friend and personal kindsguard protector, Arthur Dayne. We know she only came from Starfall to Dragonstone a few months before the Tournament at Harrenhal. Ashara agreed and tried to get pregnant for these few months.
2. The second candidate was Lyanna Stark. At the beginning of the Tournament at Harrenhal Ashara Dayne met Ned Stark and Howland Reed and fell in love with one of them, though my money is on Ned. She decided to end her surrogate mother contract with Rhaegar and Elia. That left Elia and Rhaegar looking for a new candidate as a surrogate mother from a magical family.

About a week later, Rhaegar discovered the Mystery Night his father tasked him with unmasking and killing was actually Lyanna Stark, and she was from a magical family, able to warg her horse, beautiful and smart. Who better to birth the third head of the dragon than a woman with magical powers able to bond with horses and defeat male knights at jousting! So Rhaegar and Elia decided to have Elia ask Lyanna to be her new surrogate mother, and the next day Rhaegar awarded her Queen of Love and Beauty.

Then the world fell apart. Robert being Robert, got jealous and angry and drunk and tried to force himself on Lyanna at the Inn at the Crossroads. Lyanna decided enough is enough. She never wanted to marry Robert and now he assaulted her. Meanwhile Rhaegar had sent Arthur Dayne to protect her and bring her in case she said yes. And that’s what she did there and then. "Arthur, my answer is yes, rescue me from Robert and take me to Rhaegar." But that’s not how the story got told.

Littlefinger wanted Brandon Stark dead, and Tywin and Varys Blackfyre wanted House Targaryen over thrown, so someone just swapped who assaulted Lyanna in the story and whether she went to Arthur versus whether Arthur Dayne grabbed her. But we all know Arthur Dayne was a gentleman who even Jaime thought was flawless as a person. While we know Robert is a rapist from Cersei who gets drunk and comes and marital rapes her whenever he wants, then claims to remember none of what happened in the morning. Over and over again. Compared to that, being a surrogate mother for the future regents, treated as a princess for life was a much better deal.

Meanwhile right after or as this was all going down, that’s when Ashara realized she already was pregnant…with Dany or Val, once she was already traveling around with Ned planning to marry him. Ashara is the mysterious pregnant “fisherman’s daughter” cloaked and covered whom Ned smuggled to the north with him at the start of the war. By this point he had just been forced by Lord Tully to marry Catelyn--to save his family, the Arryns, and his best friend--but Ned was determined still to protect Ashara and her future baby, even though it was going to be a dragon. This mean Ned both started and ended Robert’s Rebellion by deciding to protect secretly a baby of Rhaegar Targaryen!

R + L = J

R + A = D or V

-------

The Baby Swap Negotiated at the Tower of Joy

I am not going to explain here all the subtle textual clues that Arthur never died at the Tower of Joy. Either Howland Reed brokered a peace so that there was no fight, or the three kingsguard won, but spared Howland and Ned after the other five Northmen were dead.

But when they compared notes, baby Aemon Targaryen looked like a Stark and could pass for one, but baby Daenerys / Valyria Targaryen with their golden hair absolutely never could. So Ned and Arthur agreed on a completely logical baby switch.

• Arthur agreed to take his own niece, Val/Dany north of the wall with him, where he took on the persona of Mance Rayder. (Or else he first took Dany overseas to Ser William Darry and Viserys, then he travelled back to go north of the wall.) Either way, Rhaegar’s instructions to Arthur were quite clear: in the event I die, make certain my children are safe; then after they are safely placed, then go north of the wall, unify the wildlings, and bring them south before the Long Night to fight for my son, because he will need them.
• Ned agreed to take his own nephew, Jon Snow.

We have the perfect baby swap of a little baby named Aemon Targaryen for another baby name Daenerys or Valyria Targaryen, organized by Howland Reed and Arthur Dayne, who will become Mance Rayder.

Does that sound to you at all like Jon Snow arranging a baby swap for Mance Rayder’s son named Aemon Rayder/Dayne for Gilly’s baby? What a coincidence! This is the biggest of all clues in the books as to what happened to Jon himself and his baby half sister.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Jeff Claburn

[SaffronLady]

31 minutes ago, Jeff Claburn said:

Valyria Targaryen

While I don't follow your theory entirely, it is this queer name that troubles me most of all.

[Jeff Claburn]

23 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

While I don't follow your theory entirely, it is this queer name that troubles me most of all.

I am just suggesting that Val probably has a longer full name, and Valyria is the most obvious one for the son of Rhaegar, though she could be named Visenya or many other variants of either.

But George Martin has repeatedly said that he is a big fan of Robert E. Howard, and the best love interest for Conan in Howard's stories is Valeria of the Red Brotherhood, adventurer and pirate. So she is probably named after Valeria, but the Targaryen spelling would be Valyria, which is also the name of their homeland.

Valeria is also very big, I believe, in the Conan comics and graphic novels put out by Howard's estate, and George also grew up a gigantic comic book fan. You can search for her images from the comics. She is typically depicted with gorgeous golden hair, like Val, and wears a white top, like Val, and carries a sword, like Val. Arguably, Valeria is the protype for all the Valyrian warrior-women in A Song of Ice and Fire as well as other blonde swordswomen in modern fantasy such as Marya in Memory, Sorrow, and Thron, the biggest inspiratios for our Arya (though Marya is blonde). Which suddenly make me wonder, Oh God, what if Arya wears Val's face. Then she will look like Marya, and Jon will be in lust with her. George, NO, Don't do it to us!!!

Don't give us Jon with sister-wives Val (who is really blonde Arya wearing Val's face) and Sansa. Please no...Please have Aria wear Arriane Martel's face instead and be married to Young Griff or Jaqen wearing his face, not Jon.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Jeff Claburn

[SaffronLady]

36 minutes ago, Jeff Claburn said:

I am just suggesting that Val probably has a longer full name, and Valyria is the most obvious one

Oh. I follow now, but I just don't think people getting named after their homelands is ... ummm .... not strange. I know there are Americans called America, it just seems off.

[Moiraine Sedai]

21 hours ago, Jeff Claburn said:

Was Jon swapped for another baby by Ned, and if so, who?

Yes! I think it was Val but it could have been Dany. But I do think it was one or the other…and the baby in question is Jon’s real half sister (instead of Sansa or Arya)!

Val makes the most sense in terms of proximity to the North, as well as the fact that she is already developing a romantic relationship with Jon—given George’s fondness for Targaryen incest.

Dany makes the most sense in terms of her essential importance to the story and key role in every book.

Now for the explanation of how this is all possible!

The Surrogate Mother Hypothesis

The theory that I personally created is that Rhaegar and Elia agreed together to look for a surrogate mother in order to have the third head of the dragon, since Elia could not medically survive carrying a third Targaryen child. They would have preferred a women who was Dornish, if possible, and a woman from a magical family, if possible.

They ended up with two candidates who both got pregnant by accident:

1. The first candidate was Ashara Dayne, suggested and brought to Rhaegar and Elia by his best friend and personal kindsguard protector, Arthur Dayne. We know she only came from Starfall to Dragonstone a few months before the Tournament at Harrenhal. Ashara agreed and tried to get pregnant for these few months.
2. The second candidate was Lyanna Stark. At the beginning of the Tournament at Harrenhal Ashara Dayne met Ned Stark and Howland Reed and fell in love with one of them, though my money is on Ned. She decided to end her surrogate mother contract with Rhaegar and Elia. That left Elia and Rhaegar looking for a new candidate as a surrogate mother from a magical family.

About a week later, Rhaegar discovered the Mystery Night his father tasked him with unmasking and killing was actually Lyanna Stark, and she was from a magical family, able to warg her horse, beautiful and smart. Who better to birth the third head of the dragon than a woman with magical powers able to bond with horses and defeat male knights at jousting! So Rhaegar and Elia decided to have Elia ask Lyanna to be her new surrogate mother, and the next day Rhaegar awarded her Queen of Love and Beauty.

Then the world fell apart. Robert being Robert, got jealous and angry and drunk and tried to force himself on Lyanna at the Inn at the Crossroads. Lyanna decided enough is enough. She never wanted to marry Robert and now he assaulted her. Meanwhile Rhaegar had sent Arthur Dayne to protect her and bring her in case she said yes. And that’s what she did there and then. "Arthur, my answer is yes, rescue me from Robert and take me to Rhaegar." But that’s not how the story got told.

Littlefinger wanted Brandon Stark dead, and Tywin and Varys Blackfyre wanted House Targaryen over thrown, so someone just swapped who assaulted Lyanna in the story and whether she went to Arthur versus whether Arthur Dayne grabbed her. But we all know Arthur Dayne was a gentleman who even Jaime thought was flawless as a person. While we know Robert is a rapist from Cersei who gets drunk and comes and marital rapes her whenever he wants, then claims to remember none of what happened in the morning. Over and over again. Compared to that, being a surrogate mother for the future regents, treated as a princess for life was a much better deal.

Meanwhile right after or as this was all going down, that’s when Ashara realized she already was pregnant…with Dany or Val, once she was already traveling around with Ned planning to marry him. Ashara is the mysterious pregnant “fisherman’s daughter” cloaked and covered whom Ned smuggled to the north with him at the start of the war. By this point he had just been forced by Lord Tully to marry Catelyn--to save his family, the Arryns, and his best friend--but Ned was determined still to protect Ashara and her future baby, even though it was going to be a dragon. This mean Ned both started and ended Robert’s Rebellion by deciding to protect secretly a baby of Rhaegar Targaryen!

R + L = J

R + A = D or V

-------

The Baby Swap Negotiated at the Tower of Joy

I am not going to explain here all the subtle textual clues that Arthur never died at the Tower of Joy. Either Howland Reed brokered a peace so that there was no fight, or the three kingsguard won, but spared Howland and Ned after the other five Northmen were dead.

But when they compared notes, baby Aemon Targaryen looked like a Stark and could pass for one, but baby Daenerys / Valyria Targaryen with their golden hair absolutely never could. So Ned and Arthur agreed on a completely logical baby switch.

• Arthur agreed to take his own niece, Val/Dany north of the wall with him, where he took on the persona of Mance Rayder. (Or else he first took Dany overseas to Ser William Darry and Viserys, then he travelled back to go north of the wall.) Either way, Rhaegar’s instructions to Arthur were quite clear: in the event I die, make certain my children are safe; then after they are safely placed, then go north of the wall, unify the wildlings, and bring them south before the Long Night to fight for my son, because he will need them.
• Ned agreed to take his own nephew, Jon Snow.

We have the perfect baby swap of a little baby named Aemon Targaryen for another baby name Daenerys or Valyria Targaryen, organized by Howland Reed and Arthur Dayne, who will become Mance Rayder.

Does that sound to you at all like Jon Snow arranging a baby swap for Mance Rayder’s son named Aemon Rayder/Dayne for Gilly’s baby? What a coincidence! This is the biggest of all clues in the books as to what happened to Jon himself and his baby half sister.

Happy New Year!

I will grant you that the possible parents for some of these children are many and that accepted history may not be what it is. Your theories have brought up questions but not enough to abandon some things that are the cornerstones of the story.

Val is unusually attractive but it’s not enough to question her DNA. Dark hair is the most common in the north but if there are red heads there are blondes though they may be uncommon. I doubt she has a major part in this tale other than giving the book reader a way to know how wildlings think. I could see Val instigating the death of Shireen. 

Arthur was loyal to King Aerys. He was not going to do anything to undermine Aerys’ rule in any way. Not even for Rhaegar. It is possible though that he broke his vow to not father children in order to make a son who will inherit the sword. It violates the laws of the KG but it’s not a treason against Aerys. 

The visions from the Palace Of Dust in Qarth proved the identity of Daenerys Targaryen. The prophecy that the Targaryens have worked so hard to bring about happened when she was born on Dragonstone and reborn on the Dothraki Sea. She is the daughter of House Targaryen, from King Aerys II and Queen Rhaella. Dany is Azor Ahai, the Khaleesi, and the heir to the Targaryen kingdom of Westeros. 
 

Lyanna Stark was a sad girl who wanted escape from a future with Robert. Sure, maybe Rhaegar fancied her and had a bastard. We just know that’s not like him. My opinion is different from the R + L = J theory. I think Jon’s mother is Lyanna but the father is not likely Rhaegar. Mance, Arthur, and Brandon are the top suspects who got Lyanna with child. 
 

 

 

[Jeff Claburn]

On 1/1/2024 at 11:39 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Arthur was loyal to King Aerys. He was not going to do anything to undermine Aerys’ rule in any way. Not even for Rhaegar. It is possible though that he broke his vow to not father children in order to make a son who will inherit the sword. It violates the laws of the KG but it’s not a treason against Aerys. 

I respectfully disagree. Everyone says that Arthur was Rhaegar's best friend and the only one who truly understood him. He was the man whom Rhaegar trusted most.

I actually think Arthur hated Aerys, though he served him. I don't like to rely on one theory of mine in arguing another, because then they become an upside down pyramid or falsely appear to be that. However, I have argued and wholeheartedly believe that Arthur Dayne was full on Lancelot, in love with the queen, and her secret lover. I also suspect that Dany is the daughter of Arthur and Rhaella instead of Aerys.

Daenerys being the "Dayne heiress" makes so much sense if she is indeed Azor Ahai as you think, because then she is born of the Targaryen line as you say but also born of the House of the Dawn, capable of being the Sword of the Morning and wielding Dawn herself. She isn't just fire, she is Dawn + Fire!!!

Edited January 3 by Jeff Claburn

[Jeff Claburn]

On 1/1/2024 at 11:39 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Val is unusually attractive but it’s not enough to question her DNA. Dark hair is the most common in the north but if there are red heads there are blondes though they may be uncommon. I doubt she has a major part in this tale other than giving the book reader a way to know how wildlings think. I could see Val instigating the death of Shireen. 

I'll grant you Val hasn't appeared a lot yet and that suggests she isn't too important. Maybe she is just proof Jon likes bloneds and foreshadowing of a Jon-Dany relationship as in the show. But..

1. Jon has arguably married her already under wildling culture by stealing her. She was Stannis prisoner and Jon decided on his own to move her to his own tower to his own space to make her safer and ordered that done without any permission from Stannis. As a gentlemen he moved out first. But stealing is stealing, and he stole her and moreover put her in his own tower in his own room! That's legal marriage for wildlings.

2. Everyone calls her the wildling princess even though the wildlings have no princesses. This is driven into the ground over, and over, and over again. Then the real culmination of this is when she stands with a crown next to Stannis at the fake execution of Mance and Jon thinks she's the one who looks like royalty, not Stannis. That is George almost hitting us over the head telling us, hey, secretly she is really royalty, Targaryen royalty.

3. George is also obsessed with love triangles and all the Aegon I foreshadowing puts Jon in an eventually love triangle with two women. Who are these two women? There is only one woman who (a) has been flirting with Jon for a couple of books and thanks him for having rescued her and dresses like a bride all in white around him, and (b) whom he keeps thinking is the most beautiful woman he has ever seen.

4. If there is anything George has set up, over and over again, because Jon is a secret Targaryen, it's Jon falling in love with his sister without realizing it. I for one am certain this is happening. There are not that many women in the story who can possibly be his sister. The one who most easily can is Val, and we do have a missing daughter of Ashara Dayne who completely could be Rhaegar's.

I think she has to be important for these reasons!!!

George hides fairy tales in his stories and Jon's hidden fairytales are Snow White and Aurora, gender swapped. I think Val kissing Jon is part of the ritual that brings him back to life, princess kisses prince back to life rather than the other way round.

I tend to think that Val is a Dany clone in the sense that he originally planned for Jon to have a relationship with Dany in a much shorter story, but Dany is getting there so late in a much longer story, Val is taking the place of Dany as his Targaryen relative he unknowingly falls in love with. Maybe completely, but certainly for Winds of Winter. Dany isn't getting to Westeros until the very end of Winds of Winter, a lot of us believe, but not before. George has talked about writing lots of Dany chapters with the Dothraki while leaving a mess for her to go back and fix in slavers bay while loosing dragons she has to collect. He has also foreshadowed her attacking Volantis and going back to Pentos. That's her Winds plus probably more we don't know in Essos.

In the meantime, Val wakes up Jon, and can no longer check his attraction to her since his consciousness is half wolf, keeping in mind that Ghost is really close to Val and she pets him while he goes around with her. Jon is torn by his sense of duty to the Night's Watch, and to the North, and his secret love affair with Val. That's where I see things headed.

Edited January 3 by Jeff Claburn

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, Jeff Claburn said:

I also suspect that Dany is the daughter of Arthur and Rhaella instead of Aerys.

Now that would bring another knight into the queen's service. Ser Hasty would be proud.