On gods

[Aldarion]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Assuming magic and gods cover the same phenomena, we do have air: there are aeromancers in Asshai; Dany is gifted a 'magic' ointment to reveal spirits of the air; spirits of the air are mentioned multiple times, usually in connection with legend or ghosts.

Thanks!

13 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I would suggest that the faith of the seven is a religion that has evolved from the memory of a time worshipping the Old Gods.

 

Never thought of it, but makes sense.

 

[Springwatch]

57 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

By level headed  i mean she seems to have left them to persue  her own visions of who the fire messiah is  like a maverick , the rest seem to follow the high  fire priests lead.

Oh ok. I think all red priests are unbalanced (if they're doing it properly that is), which is probably tough for the religious hierarchy. I guess Mel's talent and complete lack of team spirit was a pain to the administration, and the only help they could offer was a long distance ticket out together with their best love.

[astarkchoice]

Just now, Springwatch said:

Oh ok. I think all red priests are unbalanced (if they're doing it properly that is), which is probably tough for the religious hierarchy. I guess Mel's talent and complete lack of team spirit was a pain to the administration, and the only help they could offer was a long distance ticket out together with their best love.

Yeah its hard to say if she id either a) is manipulating stannis as part of a larger plan by the fire priests same as the large priest and victarion.

Or is a maverick whos visions have led her to genuinely believe stannis is the key not dany

Now in a sort of twisted way shes  been sorta right!!!!!

She saves stannis from renly then from a protracted siege on stormsend...had renly wiped him out he probbly would have easily been king and renly seems the sort to take word of demons and goblins from the north and laugh it off

Then shes refused to be allowed into the blackwater battle which is literalt decided by fire! Stannis would have been king and  in a position to better protect the realm from thw walkers as he actualy listens+ believes

Finaly she helps stannos.survive the aftermath of his colossal failure to  go on to save the watch and break the wildlings into a force to defend the wall, even hands out good advice to the idiot jon who might also be the key but he ignores it to be stabbed!!!

[Springwatch]

5 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Yeah its hard to say if she id either a) is manipulating stannis as part of a larger plan by the fire priests same as the large priest and victarion.

It's a fascinating idea, but I have to say very unfair on the reader because there's not so much as a flicker of unity between Mel and Benerro's crew. She is Melisandre of Asshai, her place is at the Wall, and her AA is Stannis or possibly Jon. The Essosi are on a different track entirely.

5 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Or is a maverick whos visions have led her to genuinely believe stannis is the key not dany

This. She saw something in the flames that really made her believe. Wish we knew what.

Wish we'd see her get news of Dany, and what she thought about that.

5 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Now in a sort of twisted way shes  been sorta right!!!!!

She saves stannis from renly then from a protracted siege on stormsend...had renly wiped him out he probbly would have easily been king and renly seems the sort to take word of demons and goblins from the north and laugh it off

Then shes refused to be allowed into the blackwater battle which is literalt decided by fire! Stannis would have been king and  in a position to better protect the realm from thw walkers as he actualy listens+ believes

Finaly she helps stannos.survive the aftermath of his colossal failure to  go on to save the watch and break the wildlings into a force to defend the wall, even hands out good advice to the idiot jon who might also be the key but he ignores it to be stabbed!!!

Yeah, she is sorta right! and that's exactly how prophecy seems to work; it always turns out, but not as expected. Soo... as Melisandre expected? or as Benerro is expecting? Because Benerro seems to have the 'obvious' interpretation, and the obvious usually has the most problems. On the other hand Mel-Stannis-Jon are looking very icy at the moment - they are on a mission to preserve, their home is the Wall. Odd, but honestly a more appealing vision than the fire-consumes vision Benerro has for Dany's followers - war, death and resurrection.

What they have in common is that both sides are amazingly fatalistic. Stannis goes out to defeat and maybe death. Jon is surrounded by lethal daggers. Moqorro is sent out on a sinking ship. Was there the memo, today is not the day they die, etc? Maybe, but it was Jojen the greendreamer who 'knew' his day hadn't arrived - Mel the fire priestess seems to look for and find specific threats to life. I don't think she could be certain of Stannis surviving the Blackwater by this method. Or Jon surviving the skulls and daggers. Fatalism.

[gatlin]

On 2/28/2024 at 3:57 PM, Mourning Star said:

I would suggest that the faith of the seven is a religion that has evolved from the memory of a time worshipping the Old Gods.

The Old Gods are the Weirwoods.

The faith of the seven comes from Andalos, in Essos, where we see evidence that at least once upon a time (I would suggest before the long night and the breaking of the arm of Dorne). The Ifequevron may have been the children of the forest.

The God-Kings of Ib, before their fall, did succeed in conquering and colonizing a huge swathe of northern Essos immediately south of Ib itself, a densely wooded region that had formerly been the home of a small, shy forest folk. Some say that the Ibbenese extinguished this gentle race, whilst others believe they went into hiding in the deeper woods or fled to other lands. The Dothraki still call the great forest along the northern coast the Kingdom of the Ifequevron, the name by which they knew the vanished forest-dwellers.
The fabled Sea Snake, Corlys Velaryon, Lord of the Tides, was the first Westerosi to visit these woods. After his return from the Thousand Islands, he wrote of carved trees, haunted grottoes, and strange silences. A later traveler, the merchant-adventurer Bryan of Oldtown, captain of the cog Spearshaker, provided an account of his own journey across the Shivering Sea. He reported that the Dothraki name for the lost people meant "those who walk in the woods." None of the Ibbenese that Bryan of Oldtown met could say they had ever seen a woods walker, but claimed that the little people blessed a household that left offerings of leaf and stone and water overnight.

Above are mentioned the sacrificing by the Andals off the Swan Maidens, which sound to me like green seers.

I would go so far as to say the trees of the undying are corrupted Weirwoods.

I'm not the first to suggest that Naga's ribs are a grove of petrified Weirwoods.

We see the skinshifters take on aspects of their animals, and I don't think its a stretch to see a connection between this magic and all legends of half human creatures on Planetos.

Targaryens say they have the blood of the dragon, and the story of the nights king has him giving his seed to his corpse queen.

In fact wouldn't be surprised to find all the religions and all the magic rooted in the Weirwoods.

But back to Westeros.

The souls of men go down into the earth and into the trees. This makes the Old Gods not just a form of nature worship, but ancestor worship.

And this is where we can really see a reflection in the faith of the seven.

She found the High Septon waiting for her in a small seven-sided audience chamber. The room was sparse and plain, with bare stone walls, a rough-hewn table, three chairs, and a prayer bench. The faces of the Seven had been carved into the walls. Cersei thought the carvings crude and ugly, but there was a certain power to them, especially about the eyes, orbs of onyx, malachite, and yellow moonstone that somehow made the faces come alive.

Crude carved faces, reminiscent of the faces carved into the Weirwoods. 

And finally, even the song of the seven tells us... think of the children!

The Father's face is stern and strong,
he sits and judges right from wrong.
He weighs our lives, the short and long,
and loves the little children.

The Mother gives the gift of life,
and watches over every wife.
Her gentle smile ends all strife,
and she loves her little children.

The Warrior stands before the foe,
protecting us where e'er we go.
With sword and shield and spear and bow,
he guards the little children.

The Crone is very wise and old,
and sees our fates as they unfold.
She lifts her lamp of shining gold
to lead the little children.

The Smith, he labors day and night,
to put the world of men to right.
With hammer, plow, and fire bright,
he builds for little children.

The Maiden dances through the sky,
she lives in every lover's sigh.
Her smiles teach the birds to fly,
and gives dreams to little children.

The Seven Gods who made us all,
are listening if we should call.
So close your eyes, you shall not fall,
they see you, little children.
Just close your eyes, you shall not fall,
they see you, little children.

You just lit a bulb in my head. Humans probably wiped out Singers on Essos, the Singers then retreated to Westeros, and they have continued retreating ever since as humans advance. Their advantage is their magic and their weirwood network.

And what an ally magic is! They "sing the songs of the earth," whatever that means, but it apparently gives them the ability to break apart continents, remote control wildlife, change their appearance, assume the appearance of others, and reanimate the dead into useful automatons.

The house system in Westeros seems like it was created to protect the bloodlines of humans who could also use magic. After centuries of course there are no doubt some houses that have no magic, and there are likely a handful of magical bastard families dotting the countryside none the wiser, but on balance I think my assertion is correct.

Are the Singers interested in controlling and influencing some of these magical royals? Probably. Are they perhaps behind the house system to begin with? I can't decide.

All of this brings me to the quoted post. Almost. The Maester system seems to go hand in hand with the Faith of the Seven. Together they do what magical worship does by itself: explaining how and why things are and connecting the living to the dead.

So yes, as the quoted post suggests, the basis of most of these religions is probably equivalent to what northern westerosi call "the old gods," and the Faith of the Seven is in a way a derivative. But that's because it is designed to systematize nature worship in a way that reinforces a stable social order while satsifying irrational spiritual needs.

I would not be surprised to learn that the Singers invented the Faith of the Seven as part of a strategy to control and contain humanity. Need to think more on it though.

Edited March 1 by gatlin