The Riverlands?

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

Looking at multiple maps of Westeros, why is the Riverlands so weak? I get that "they are the punching bag" of the rest of the seven kingdoms and that they are very divided, however some parts of the Riverlands should be much richer and stronger. The Saltpans for example. They are at the mouth of the Trident, which leads into the rest of the Riverlands and into the Westerlands. The houses surrounding the Trident and leading to the Wasterlands should be much stronger for the same reason. Also, the Saltpans seem to be the only place where there is an actual salt mine in Westeros. If ships are able to get into the Westerlands through Tumblestone and the Red Fork then ships from Braavos, Lorath, and Pentos would be passing through the Trident to go there instead of sailing around Westeros and passing through the Stepstones. Also, the geographical weakness of the Riverlands that I can see is at the border with the Crownlands. It shouldn't be that hard to blockade the Riverroad and has a lot of towns on and houses guarding the entrance to the south. I get that they are divided, but they shouldn't be so divided that they let the whole of the Riverlands be invaded. 

[Alden Rothack]

2 minutes ago, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

Looking at multiple maps of Westeros, why is the Riverlands so weak? I get that "they are the punching bag" of the rest of the seven kingdoms and that they are very divided, however some parts of the Riverlands should be much richer and stronger. The Saltpans for example. They are at the mouth of the Trident, which leads into the rest of the Riverlands and into the Westerlands. The houses surrounding the Trident and leading to the Wasterlands should be much stronger for the same reason. Also, the Saltpans seem to be the only place where there is an actual salt mine in Westeros. If ships are able to get into the Westerlands through Tumblestone and the Red Fork then ships from Braavos, Lorath, and Pentos would be passing through the Trident to go there instead of sailing around Westeros and passing through the Stepstones. Also, the geographical weakness of the Riverlands that I can see is at the border with the Crownlands. It shouldn't be that hard to blockade the Riverroad and has a lot of towns on and houses guarding the entrance to the south. I get that they are divided, but they shouldn't be so divided that they let the whole of the Riverlands be invaded.

Because the same factors which would make trade easier also favour their enemies, because the River lords unlike some of the other kingdoms don't have a unifying culture and because said enemies surround them on all sides ready to take advantage of frequently weak leadership, note that under skilled leadership they actually do well.

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

10 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Because the same factors which would make trade easier also favour their enemies, because the River lords unlike some of the other kingdoms don't have a unifying culture and because said enemies surround them on all sides ready to take advantage of frequently weak leadership, note that under skilled leadership they actually do well.

I made a point of the disunity of the River lords already, I was specifically talking about certain houses like House Cox, which controls the Saltpans, or the houses the border the confluence of the three forks, ie. the Trident. The only way an enemy could completely blockade those houses would be to blockade them from both land and water. 

[Alden Rothack]

4 minutes ago, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

I made a point of the disunity of the River lords already, I was specifically talking about certain houses like House Cox, which controls the Saltpans, or the houses the border the confluence of the three forks, ie. the Trident. The only way an enemy could completely blockade those houses would be to blockade them from both land and water. 

Which would be quite doable with a large force. lack of natural borders is a problem because unlike fortifications you can't take them down, no house can ever be strong enough if no help is coming.

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

13 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Which would be quite doable with a large force. lack of natural borders is a problem because unlike fortifications you can't take them down, no house can ever be strong enough if no help is coming.

The lack of natural borders is exactly what I am disputing though, and I think you would too If you look at some maps. The only way into the Riverlands without crossing a river is through the Riverroad which goes very close to Riverrun or through the south of the Riverlands where the Stonysept. Im saying that while parts of the Riverlands are conquerable, but not all of it, especially not by one Kingdom. However, Argillac Durrandon conquered the Riverlands with the help of the Blackwoods and I can't seem to find any details on how the Ironborn seemed to conquer it. And that is what is making me so puzzled.

[Alden Rothack]

2 minutes ago, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

The lack of natural borders is exactly what I am disputing though, and I think you would too If you look at some maps. The only way into the Riverlands without crossing a river is through the Riverroad which goes very close to Riverrun or through the south of the Riverlands where the Stonysept. Im saying that while parts of the Riverlands are conquerable, but not all of it, especially not by one Kingdom. However, Argillac Durrandon conquered the Riverlands with the help of the Blackwoods and I can't seem to find any details on how the Ironborn seemed to conquer it. And that is what is making me so puzzled.

combination of local allies and the fact that longships are light enough to use in rivers if you are skilled enough

[astarkchoice]

Its just luck and circumstance really

Look at the most recent invasion if edmure hadnt divided his forces or the blackfish been in charge the riverlands probably could have smashed jamie+ tywins aggression at their borders and been seen as a strong region! 

In fact most weak regions in the book could easily be turned around or vise versa with the right leadership

 

That said the riverlands has issues in that 2 of its most powerful houses are constantly at war , one has focused all its wealth and military might towards being the wardens against the ironborn(mallisters) , one massive set of lands anf castle (harrenhall) means theres a constant flux of unlucky houses rising and falling there (and being drained of cash by the ruinous cost of harrenhall!!)  And finaly one other house (frey) needs to be either married intot he tullys or checked into obedience as a vassal that wont show up for battle.is useless.

Edited April 4 by astarkchoice

[Alden Rothack]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Its just luck and circumstance really

Look at the most recent invasion if edmure hadnt divided his forces or the blackfish been in charge the riverlands probably could have smashed jamie+ tywins aggression at their borders and been seen as a strong region! 

In fact most weak regions in the book could easily be turned around or vise versa with the right leadership

 

That said the riverlands has issues in that 2 of its most powerful houses are constantly at war , one has focused all its wealth and military might towards being the wardens against the ironborn(mallisters) , one massive set of lands anf castle (harrenhall) means theres a constant flux of unlucky houses rising and falling there (and being drained of cash by the ruinous cost of harrenhall!!)  And finaly one other house (frey) needs to be either married intot he tullys or checked into obedience as a vassal that wont show up for battle.is useless.

Just look at the Dance where the Freys kicked major arse from the beginning to end

if the likes of Sabitha and the Lads had been waiting for Jaime it would have been a very different war.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Alden Rothack said:

Just look at the Dance where the Freys kicked major arse from the beginning to end

if the likes of Sabitha and the Lads had been waiting for Jaime it would have been a very different war.

Well to be fair even if it HAD been the current freys 3-4 men with a solid brute like black walder at the front probably could have turned the tide or st least made  a better showing!

 

But yeah with the right leadership any planetos power can become impressive militarlity from the slaver cities to dothraki to even the lil quartheen! 

And vise versa as it seems.the riverlands has a lot of potential wasted! 

[Alden Rothack]

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Well to be fair even if it HAD been the current freys 3-4 men with a solid brute like black walder at the front probably could have turned the tide or st least made  a better showing!

 

But yeah with the right leadership any planetos power can become impressive militarlity from the slaver cities to dothraki to even the lil quartheen! 

And vise versa as it seems.the riverlands has a lot of potential wasted! 

Yup, I mean the Riverland based on size should have a lot more men than the Westerlands, Tywin just started earlier and was able to afford to out more of them in the field than the Riverlords

the right leader could have beaten Jaime well before Robb got there, manpower has ever been the issue

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Alden Rothack said:

Yup, I mean the Riverland based on size should have a lot more men than the Westerlands, Tywin just started earlier and was able to afford to out more of them in the field than the Riverlords

the right leader could have beaten Jaime well before Robb got there, manpower has ever been the issue

Could be although lannisport is a major city plus they can afford to field more full time/part time troops than their size would suggest due to their wealth.

 

Yeah if  say the blackfish had been there to lead instead! 

[Alden Rothack]

14 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Could be although lannisport is a major city plus they can afford to field more full time/part time troops than their size would suggest due to their wealth.

the main advantage cities give you is in feeding armies after you have mobilized them

Yeah if  say the blackfish had been there to lead instead! 

I suspect the black fish would have done much as he did but on a larger scale

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 4/3/2024 at 2:26 AM, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

Looking at multiple maps of Westeros, why is the Riverlands so weak? I get that "they are the punching bag" of the rest of the seven kingdoms and that they are very divided, however some parts of the Riverlands should be much richer and stronger. The Saltpans for example. They are at the mouth of the Trident, which leads into the rest of the Riverlands and into the Westerlands. The houses surrounding the Trident and leading to the Wasterlands should be much stronger for the same reason. Also, the Saltpans seem to be the only place where there is an actual salt mine in Westeros. If ships are able to get into the Westerlands through Tumblestone and the Red Fork then ships from Braavos, Lorath, and Pentos would be passing through the Trident to go there instead of sailing around Westeros and passing through the Stepstones. Also, the geographical weakness of the Riverlands that I can see is at the border with the Crownlands. It shouldn't be that hard to blockade the Riverroad and has a lot of towns on and houses guarding the entrance to the south. I get that they are divided, but they shouldn't be so divided that they let the whole of the Riverlands be invaded. 

The issue is they can't. Ignoring the major issue that the ships from Essos would be sailing against any current, let alone a fast and deep current, the tumblestone isn't accessible from the west coast of Westeros as it starts high in the western hills

[astarkchoice]

41 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

I suspect the black fish would have done much as he did but on a larger scale

Yeah if blackfish was around i supect a lot would have been different.

It would mean hed be married possibly to a house to secure their reign like the vances or mootons etc , talent like anguy or bronn wouldnt be idle pre war ,edmure would be a lot sharper with his military judgement and the mountain sure as hell wouldnt have been allowed to rape and pillage to draw ned in

[Alden Rothack]

1 minute ago, astarkchoice said:

Yeah if blackfish was around i supect a lot would have been different.

It would mean hed be married possibly to a house to secure their reign like the vances or mootons etc , talent like anguy or bronn wouldnt be idle pre war ,edmure would be a lot sharper with his military judgement and the mountain sure as hell wouldnt have been allowed to rape and pillage to draw ned in

my vote would be the Whents, it would upset the smallest number of people and doesn't give him in laws who he is likely to hate working with plus the Tullys really do need the added power.

[astarkchoice]

51 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

my vote would be the Whents, it would upset the smallest number of people and doesn't give him in laws who he is likely to hate working with plus the Tullys really do need the added power.

The problem with the wents id harrenhall! You either do something massive to offset the rot or as littlefinger says its ruinous tk heat and maintain! 

I posted before my idea would be to tear down a lot of the most rotten inner structures and turn it into a huge walled city! Maybe even if theres enough land inside grow crops! Given its sheer size every able bodied person would need to drill with bow or crossbow to defend such lengthy walls though.

[Alden Rothack]

1 minute ago, astarkchoice said:

The problem with the wents id harrenhall! You either do something massive to offset the rot or as littlefinger says its ruinous tk heat and maintain! 

I posted before my idea would be to tear down a lot of the most rotten inner structures and turn it into a huge walled city! Maybe even if theres enough land inside grow crops! Given its sheer size every able bodied person would need to drill with bow or crossbow to defend such lengthy walls though.

Well that would be better than leaving it as it is but stil gives them a lot of wall to defend, a smaller castle with a town or city next to it would be better

[astarkchoice]

4 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Well that would be better than leaving it as it is but stil gives them a lot of wall to defend, a smaller castle with a town or city next to it would be better

Hmm maybe a walled city but part of it walled in again (like volantis) as the castle where the great house and its knights, etc would stay.

Due to the huge nature of harrenhall it may make sense to actualy wall off inner parts or flood parts so invaders that clear the huge main walls find themselves in a semi.maze to get to the new city of harrenhall.centre! And beyond that in one well defended corner behind iron gates will the the keep (as big as most ordinary castles  though) 

[Alden Rothack]

1 minute ago, astarkchoice said:

Hmm maybe a walled city but part of it walled in again (like volantis) as the castle where the great house and its knights, etc would stay.

Due to the huge nature of harrenhall it may make sense to actualy wall off inner parts or flood parts so invaders that clear the huge main walls find themselves in a semi.maze to get to the new city of harrenhall.centre! And beyond that in one well defended corner behind iron gates will the the keep (as big as most ordinary castles  though) 

Maze defeses have been tried, its generally not worth the effort of having a bigger castle

most large castles have multiple walls including Winterfell and manage quite well with that, we see relatively few castles taken while properly defended after all

[astarkchoice]

31 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Maze defeses have been tried, its generally not worth the effort of having a bigger castle

most large castles have multiple walls including Winterfell and manage quite well with that, we see relatively few castles taken while properly defended after all

The problemmis tearing those giant walls down

 

On reflection jusy heavily fortify one corner as the great house castle and develop the rest into walled city ,sorta like kingslanding  and the red keep