Tarth triplets - Lines of descent

[Hippocras]

I will start with the speculation (for which we have only anecdotal evidence at the moment) that the Tarth triplets born very early after the conquest were of indirect Targaryen descent.

The likely route, if so, was that they descended from a sibling of Valaena Velaryon. Lord Daemon Velaryon was very likely Valaena’s brother. However as the family tree at this point is not at all indicated, we don’t know this for certain, nor do we know how many other brothers or sisters Valaena had. Still, the Velaryons were travellers with alliances around the narrow sea. They were allied in particular with the Bar Emmons at the time (a very Andal Stormlands family) and the Tarths, as another very Andal family along the narrow sea in the Stormlands were almost certainly connected to the Bar Emmons historically. A connection to the Velaryons as well is therefore not at all unlikely.

If Valaena had only the one sibling then this would mean that the Tarth triplets were Lord Daemon’s granddaughters. However they could also have descended from another sister or brother of Valaena and Daemon. Either way this would make them first cousins (once or possibly twice removed) of the Conquerors.

 

The Tarth triplets were tools for uniting the Kingdoms after the conquest. One was betrothed to a Corbray, another to a Hightower, and another to a Harlaw. Any children they had were born in or after 15 AC. I would like to use this thread to investigate the three separate lines of descent.

 

[Hippocras]

House Harlaw is the line for which we have the least information to work with. However this was an interesting time for the Iron Islands: They had just lost the Riverlands with the fall of House Hoare. Having spent quite a while inter-connected with the Riverlands, family ties there would still have been strong. For a brief period, they also permitted the presence of the Fot7 on the Islands, but not for long. There is a very small window here where the Iron Islands were open and connected before they cut themselves off to a high degree from the Kingdoms for 100 years. The Tarth match was made during this period with just enough time for Harlaw+Tarth descendants to have made matches elsewhere before the Iron Islands reverted to their stubborn and destructive ways.

Speculation on where the Harlaw+Tarth descendants can be found need not, therefore be limited to the Iron Islands.

[Hippocras]

The House Hightower match is one of the most interesting, in that it is likely to have played a role in many of the lineages and allegiances in the Reach and, IMO, Westerlands between the Conquest and the Dance.

Ceryse Hightower was born in 2 AC, around the same time as the Tarth triplets; she did not descend from the Tarth+Hightower match. She may well have had nephews and nieces who did though, and she herself (and her siblings) may have had Valyrian descent via one of the Free Cities.

It is therefore reasonable to suspect that any children of either Lord Martyn or Ser Morgan Hightower were descended from this Tarth match, and so therefore were subsequent generations of Hightowers via either the direct or indirect route.

Edited April 14 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

Finally we have the Corbray match: This one is intriguing because we have information that seems to conflict. Gawen Corbray was Master at Arms on Dragonstone, hand picked by Visenya, and he trained Maegor to fight. Yet later the Corbrays fought against Maegor for Aegon the Uncrowned.

Gawen would not himself have descended from a Tarth triplet, as he would have been born much earlier than 15 AC. But there is also no indication Gawen was ever a Lord. What seems most likely is that Gawen was the younger brother of then Lord Corbray, and it was Gawen’s nephew, heir to Heart’s Home who married the Tarth girl. Either that nephew or his son was Qarl Corbray, who was Lord of Heart’s Home by the time Maegor usurped the throne. The fact that Qarl was one of very few people spared by Maegor at Visenya’s request is an argument in favour of the notion that Qarl was some degree of kin or in a kinship alliance with Maegor and Visenya.

Before the war between Maegor and Aegon, there was Jonos Arryn’s attempt to claim the Vale in 37 AC. We do not have any indication of which families allied with, then died with Jonos. We only know that Allard Royce took charge of the fight against Jonos, and was rewarded with lands, titles and honours (possibly code for prestigious marriage alliances), and also that Humbert Arryn became the new Lord of the Vale. 

Humbert was married to a Royce and had six sons born before 37 AC (and unknown numbers of daughters). Royces and Corbrays have often been rivals in the politics of the Vale, and there was likely a frequent need for balance and counterbalance when it came to matches made for House Arryn. Particularly in the aftermath of a succession crisis. So if Humbert was married to a Royce, it stands to reason that one of his sons likely married a Corbray, and others Corbray allies (Andal Houses). From here we can guess that it may well have been Rymond Arryn who married a sister (or possibly daughter, tight window) of Qarl Corbray, born in or before 30 AC, around the time of Maegor’s war against Aegon. Perhaps this match was needed to help secure Corbray support for Aegon at the time (in light of Gawen’s connection to Maegor).

If this is the case, then Rodrik Arryn’s mother was a Corbray daughter of one of the Tarth triplets, and this line of descent was one of the reasons he was on Daella Targaryen’s very short shortlist of marriage options.

Edited April 14 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

7 hours ago, Hippocras said:

The House Hightower match is one of the most interesting, in that it is likely to have played a role in many of the lineages and allegiances in the Reach and, IMO, Westerlands between the Conquest and the Dance.

Ceryse Hightower was born in 2 AC, around the same time as the Tarth triplets; she did not descend from the Tarth+Hightower match. She may well have had nephews and nieces who did though, and she herself (and her siblings) may have had Valyrian descent via one of the Free Cities.

It is therefore reasonable to suspect that any children of either Lord Martyn or Ser Morgan Hightower were descended from this Tarth match, and so therefore were subsequent generations of Hightowers via either the direct or indirect route.

Returning then to the Hightower match, probably Lord Martyn Hightower, who would have been not too different in age from his sister or the triplets. He then had children born in or after 15 AC.

One of his children was likely Donnel, who succeeded him and became Lord Hightower before 48 AC. Donnel’s presence at the Golden wedding of 49 AC may indicate a family connection (via his speculated Tarth mother) to Alyssa Velaryon. The same would of course be true of Qarl Corbray as seen above. Meanwhile his reluctance to fight Torgen Oakheart and Rickard Rowan is very possibly a hint at a family connection, further strengthened by the presence of those same two also at the Golden Wedding.

Were Torgen Oakheart and/or Rickard Rowan married to Donnel Hightower’s sisters? Nephews? Certainly seems possible. Or maybe one or both of them were maternal cousins via one of the other Tarth triplets. Either way, some form of kinship seems very likely.

Edited April 14 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

Looking more closely then at known attendees of the Golden Wedding:

Stormlands:
Morton Caron
Kyle Connington
Jon Mertyns
(Harmon?) Dondarrion
Lord Selmy

Reach:
Donnel Hightower
Torgen Oakheart
Rickard Rowan
(Samwell?) Tarly

Vale:
(Darnold?) Arryn
Qarl Corbray
(Allard?) Royce
Alec Hunter

Riverlands:
(Darnold?) Darry
Lord Mallister
Lord Vance

Westerlands:
Lyman Lannister

North:
Brandon the Boastful and sons

 

Of these, Qarl Corbray and Donnel Hightower almost certainly were sons of a Tarth triplet, while Torgen Oakheart, Rickard Rowan, and Lord Royce (if it was Allard’s descendant and not Allard himself) may, with a good degree of confidence, be speculated to have been either married to Qarl and Darnold’s sisters (or nieces), or have been their nephews (based on hints from the histories). With less confidence but by similar routes and logic, we could also consider that Lords Tarly and Hunter may have been as well. By the time of the Golden wedding, 34 years had passed since the Tarth triplets could conceivably have borne their first children, meaning by then they could even have been great-grandmothers, if their children and grandchildren married around age 15.

Furthermore, the Tarth triplets were unlikely to have been the only children of their father Lord Tarth and his (probably) Velaryon wife. If he had just one son, born before the triplets were, that son would by 49 AC have had at least one grandchild probably somewhere in the Stormlands. Lord Selmy would be the best bet for this if only one, but chances are decent that Houses Connington, Dondarrion and Mertyns have this more direct Tarth connection as well.

 

Edited April 16 by Hippocras

[House Cambodia]

23 hours ago, Hippocras said:

House Harlaw is the line for which we have the least information to work with. However this was an interesting time for the Iron Islands: They had just lost the Riverlands with the fall of House Hoare. Having spent quite a while inter-connected with the Riverlands, family ties there would still have been strong.

Just a small question - would the Harlaws not have been hated in the Riverlands? I know it was the Hoares that ruled, but every family in the Riverlands was impoverished for generations to build the damned castle and would have been subjected to the Hoares' iron fists. Not sure that they would care to distinguish one Ironborn family from another, so I don't see any benefit to marrying into them.

[Hippocras]

23 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Just a small question - would the Harlaws not have been hated in the Riverlands? I know it was the Hoares that ruled, but every family in the Riverlands was impoverished for generations to build the damned castle and would have been subjected to the Hoares' iron fists. Not sure that they would care to distinguish one Ironborn family from another, so I don't see any benefit to marrying into them.

I guess that would really depend on the behaviour and connections of the Harlaws at that point in time, and we don’t have much info. My hunch is that they must have been a relatively integrated and educated family and that was why they were chosen as the only family on the Iron Islands to be honoured with a match arranged by the Queens themselves.

House Hoare was hated there is no doubt. But they were gone by 2 AC and the Harlaws may have kept themselves relatively distant during the previous hundred or so years from the Hoares; they ruled the second largest Island of the Iron Islands and therefore did not need to suck up to have influence.

The Fot7 was permitted for a generation or two on the Islands after the conquest as well, and so there must have been a small handful of families at the time that aligned more with the Faith. Since the Tarths were originally Andal, a match with a family that had some respect and tolerance for the Fot7 if not actual adherence was probably an important criteria for the match. This of course would also have made them more accepted to several Riverlands families.

 

It really is very speculative when it comes to this branch, but something we do know is that many early matches made by Rhaenys and Visenya were about bringing together historic enemies (such as Blackwood and Bracken). So if that pattern was used, then the Harlaw+Tarth descendants may be found in Houses that had the longest standing historic conflicts with House Harlaw (not only their friends).  This would suggest Houses Mallister, Farman, maybe even Lannister. We could also look farther South to the Shield Islands for example.

Edited April 16 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

I have mentioned that attendees of the Golden Wedding are reasonable suspects for having a kinship or in-law relationship to either Alyssa Velaryon or Rogar Baratheon. And so we come to Lyman Lannister and how he fits in to this discussion.

Either Lyman’s wife or his mother was probably a Redwyne: After King’s Loren’s submission his heir was one of those whose marriage was arranged by Rhaenys and Visenya. House Redwyne is also a strong candidate for possibly having pre-conquest ties to House Velaryon given their location on an Island rather than the mainland of Westeros. Aegon and Visenya hawked on the island before the conquest.

Lyman’s descendant Tymond Lannister was one of only 3 men that Daella Targaryen was given the choice of marrying in 80 AC. This, IMO, suggests a small degree of Targaryen descent. We have in favour the fact that twins are more common in some families than others, having a hereditary component. In ASOIAF, twins seem to occur most often in the Lannister family tree, and sometimes (with fewer confirmed examples) in the Velaryon tree. These small hints, as well as the occurrence of the name "Damon" in the Lannister tree do hint at the possibility of some degree of Velaryon descent for the Lannisters.

A daughter of the Harlaw+Tarth match marrying a Lannister, in a union arranged by Queen Visenya between 14 and 37 AC (union between enemies) would be one possible route, though not the only route: Lannister connections to the Reach, Riverlands and Crownlands, indeed also to Essos, would need to be investigated. Still, we can say with a fair degree of confidence that Tymond Lannister did have one small drop of Targaryen descent that came to them via the Velaryon route, indirectly, giving him the same level of distant kinship to Daella as we saw above that Rodrik Arryn may have had.

Edited April 17 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

Too bad I am talking to myself here, but that’s ok. Maybe someone in the big out there is interested, quietly. ;D

 

 

 

 

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

3 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Too bad I am talking to myself here, but that’s ok. Maybe someone in the big out there is interested, quietly. ;D

Nooo! I'll read them during my break 

[Hippocras]

Harlaw+Tarth descendants continued:

This is entirely speculative, but it is my best guess for where any daughters of this initial Harlaw+Tarth match ended up:

A first son and heir would have been matched with a family that was firmly Ironborn. Descendants of people born elsewhere would be considered suspect by the Ironborn if they did not reaffirm their allegiance to the Islands.

If only 1 daughter, the best bet is probably that she became the wife of Goren Greyjoy. Vickon, Goren's father, believed in good relationships with the Conquerors and this match for his heir would have been his way of showing it. Also, Goren seems to have felt the need to "prove" himself as fully Ironborn and having a wife seen by his vassals as mildly suspect could have been part of the reason he felt that need. It is also possible though that Goren had a Riverlands wife (Darry maybe) and that match would have the same logic.

Another likely bet for a daughter is IMO House Farman. Why? Because the match would have been requested by Visenya, the Westerlands had long-standing conflicts with BOTH the Riverlands and the Iron Islands,  and Visenya's matchmaking aims were about uniting the Kingdoms. IMO the Lannisters themselves might not have accepted a Harlaw match so soon after being pushed into the Redwyne match, so it would be Westerlands bannermen with a fraught history with House Harlaw. Finally, named characters are more likely to be descendants than non-named ones. A Farman match would be the backstory behind Elissa and Androw, born before 32 AC which is the right time window.

However other Houses are strong contenders for similar reasons, and we do not know how many daughters of the initial Tarth match there were. The list of other top contenders for a Harlaw+Tarth daughter's match between 26 and 37 AC is:

House Mallister has almost sole responsibility for defending the Riverlands against Ironborn, and a descendant attended the Royal Wedding in 49 AC, suggesting possible kinship.

Houses Westerling, Reyne and Tarbeck were Westerlands Houses that would have been almost as vulnerable to Ironborn attacks as House Farman, though they were not Islands. Of these House Westerling is the only one with a key named character of around the right age (just) to be a daughter of a Harlaw daughter, and Maegor choosing her as a bride likely suggests a degree of Valyrian descent. 27 AC is really quite early though for a granddaughter of a Tarth triplet so Jeyne Westerling's touch of Valyrian blood may have come from elsewhere.

House Mormont assisted in the invasion of the Iron Islands in 2 AC. They have named descendants in Stark family (Alarra, her brothers, Edric) with hints of ties to royal family, although the Stark royal connection could have come from elsewhere.

House Peake is a family in the Reach that may have participated in the Invasion of the Iron Islands as part of the Redwyne fleet, having frequently inter-married with Redwynes, and they have names in their family tree that suggest historic Ironborn links. 

Houses Chester, Serry, Hewett or Grimm of the Shield Islands are a good bet. These islands were also ones with a fraught history with the Iron Islands and so prime candidates for a unification match. Shield Islanders would have made up the bulk of the Tyrell fleet for the invasion of the Iron Islands in 2 AC. 

Edited April 19 by Hippocras