Sexism in Catelyn bashing

[Lies And Perfidy]

It's very hard to post in this thread without getting personal, so I'll just say that I cannot comprehend any morality under which Cersei fucking Lannister is a more redeemable character than Catelyn Tully Stark. It is beyond me, and apparently beyond other people as well, and I expect that is a significant reason why we're always going to have these threads. Some things just can't be explained logically.

[Lord Mord]

LordPiper,

So Cersei's incestuous, treasonous affair with her supposedly celibate brother, her watching calmly the turturing of the Blue Bard, giving countless others to inhumane experiment at the hand's of her appointed master of wispers, and her abuse of Teana, those are worse than everything Catelyn does? :sick:

You're forgetting. "It should have been you, Jon." I cannot stress enough the importance of this expression.

Since this is no doubt going to be a constant refrain around here, maybe we should turn this into a mnemonic?

Ish By J., Piper. Ish By J.

[Lies And Perfidy]

Ishby-J? Is that Sean Combs's latest moniker?

[The_BlauerDragon]

So loving her family and devoting herself to her children's well being isn't redeeming?

So Cersei's incestuous, treasonous affair with her supposedly celibate brother, her watching calmly the turturing of the Blue Bard, giving countless others to inhumane experiment at the hand's of her appointed master of wispers, and her abuse of Teana, those are worse than everything Catelyn does? :sick:

That is not the impression that I got from her POVs... I got a theme of her telling herself she loved her kids and was devoted to her family but her actions and the things her thoughts lingered on saying that she loved Cat and was devoted to Cat.

If you have eyes, and can see for yourself... Just pick any copy of the book and read her POV chapters. Any one of them. I saw it all as a reoccuring theme with her. Maybe I was just picking up a vibe that no-one else keyed in on because I have known women who were just like her. Let's try this part (since it's so close at hand):

“What of Jon Snow, my lord?’ Maester Lewin asked.

Catelyn tensed at the mention of the name. Ned felt the anger in her, and pulled away.

She grows angry at the meere mention of Jon's name. Some might say this was due to his being a reminder of Ned's infidelity, but she did not mind the fact that Ned cheated... See this next quote:

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on the campaign. He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than the husband she barely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to that child’s needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son†for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

That cut deep. . . .

She said she totally understands him needing to get laid, and she expected that he'd take care of any child he fathered in such a way, So, why did it cut so deep? Because it lessened the brilliance of her position as the Lady of Winterfell and because it put a child that was not of her blood in a position to be recognized, at some level or another, as the "Son" of Ned Stark. This also made Jon a threat to the sovereignty of her claim to the inheritence of Winterfell. She did not care so much who would stand to rule after Ned's death, so long as it was someone of HER blood.

There are a great many other items that could be brought forth... like I said, almost everything ever presented in one of her POV's reinforced just how spoiled and rotten and twisted and evil (and above all self centered and elitist) she is... That's why I was never able to sympathize with anything she did, or thought, or felt, or said, or had done to her...

...at least Cersei is honest with herself about most of her evils and schemes and she genuinely cares about her children at some level or another. I don't believe for an instant that Catelyn ever thought of her children as really being anything more than symbols of her greatness and stakes to mark her claim on Ned and Winterfell. She lied to herself about how evil she truly was and about how manipulative and scheming she was and she even convinced herself that she loved Ned, when I think that Cat is the only one that Cat ever loved. She tried to portray herself as the hero facing impossible odds even in her own POV (her own mind), when (in all actuality) she was just an evil, whiney, nagging, "C" who desperately needed to have her throat slit!

[Lord Mord]

LaP,

Ishby-J? Is that Sean Combs's latest moniker?

No.

It

Should

Have

Been

You

Jon

[Guarneri]

Meh, I don't hate Catelyn, but I dislike her.

Why? Because as a character she bores me. Her character doesn't develop much over the course of the series. And basically her entire character can be summarized as, "Oh, no, my children are dying, woe is me." with a little duty and plain observations thrown in. She's a mother character, and that's basically it. Not complex, not entertaining, nor witty. Basically it seems to me like her entire character is meant as a plot device, and to give glimpses of Robb and his army to the reader.

[Humble Asskicker]

I understand the Cat hate. She's an asshole, and certainly isn't likable. But to say that she's worse than Cersei, who is about as much a caricature villain as it gets in this series (even Petyr has more dimensions to his villainy than she does) is hilarious.

[Lies And Perfidy]

Yeah, Tony, it was a joke, dude. Heh.

She said she totally understands him needing to get laid, and she expected that he'd take care of any child he fathered in such a way, So, why did it cut so deep? Because it lessened the brilliance of her position as the Lady of Winterfell and because it put a child that was not of her blood in a position to be recognized, at some level or another, as the "Son" of Ned Stark. This also made Jon a threat to the sovereignty of her claim to the inheritence of Winterfell. She did not care so much who would stand to rule after Ned's death, so long as it was someone of HER blood.

It's also possible that, y'know, it hurt her that a man she loved had a son by another woman and still loved that woman enough not to name her. That's gonna hurt pretty hard.

There are a great many other items that could be brought forth... like I said, almost everything ever presented in one of her POV's reinforced just how spoiled and rotten and twisted and evil (and above all self centered and elitist) she is... That's why I was never able to sympathize with anything she did, or thought, or felt, or said, or had done to her...

Let me rearrange your sentence real quick.

"I was never able to sympathize with anything she did, or thought, or felt, or said, or had done to her...that's why almost everything ever presented in one of her POV's reinforced just how spoiled and rotten and twisted and evil (and above all self centered and elitist) she is... "

You're trying to logically justify an opinion that have nothing of logic to it. Sometimes, people just dislike other people for no reason. It's a basic human flaw that people fall prey to. I don't think I have to discuss the irony here.

[The_BlauerDragon]

You're trying to logically justify an opinion that have nothing of logic to it. Sometimes, people just dislike other people for no reason. It's a basic human flaw that people fall prey to. I don't think I have to discuss the irony here.

Thank you. Maybe I need to stop trying to explain why I hate her so much and just come to a point where I can be comfortable with that hatred.

[Piper]

That is not the impression that I got from her POVs... I got a theme of her telling herself she loved her kids and was devoted to her family but her actions and the things her thoughts lingered on saying that she loved Cat and was devoted to Cat.

So her fondly remembering stroking Sansa's hair was her devoted to herself, not to Sansa? So freeing Jaime Lannister to free her dauthers, despite the risk of punishment for herself, is her being devoted to herself rather than to her daughters? So offering herself as the one to take the risk of going into the Twins to negotiate, so Robb wouldn't have to risk his neck, was being devoted to herself rather than to Robb? Her inability to leave Bran's bed, refusing to eat or sleep because of concern for him, that shows her devotion to herself, rather than to Bran? Huh?

If you have eyes, and can see for yourself... Just pick any copy of the book and read her POV chapters. Any one of them. I saw it all as a reoccuring theme with her. Maybe I was just picking up a vibe that no-one else keyed in on because I have known women who were just like her.

I've just dropped a few examples on you, please explain how those are in line with her total self devotion. Also, how you earlier in this thread said how Cersei is much better. Explain how Cersei's devotion to her children is pure, but Cat's in selfish? Don't just say it's a "vibe", say that a cop out. Give examples to that effect.

Let's try this part (since it's so close at hand):

By "close at hand", I am assuming you mean you're using them because I just spent the time to type them up earlier in the thread, and you didn't want to go looking for anything else. You even broke up the quote the same way I did. But sure, let's take a look.

She grows angry at the meere mention of Jon's name. Some might say this was due to his being a reminder of Ned's infidelity, but she did not mind the fact that Ned cheated... See this next quote:

She said she totally understands him needing to get laid, and she expected that he'd take care of any child he fathered in such a way, So, why did it cut so deep?

It cuts deep because it shows he loves someone else more than he loves her, because he's hiding the name of the mother despite Cat's questioning. That's an inhumane reason? To know that your husband loves someone more than you?

Because it lessened the brilliance of her position as the Lady of Winterfell and because it put a child that was not of her blood in a position to be recognized, at some level or another, as the "Son" of Ned Stark. This also made Jon a threat to the sovereignty of her claim to the inheritence of Winterfell. She did not care so much who would stand to rule after Ned's death, so long as it was someone of HER blood.

If you'd like to show me a quote that shows any of this to be true, rather than it being a sign about her caring about her children, I'd love to see it. I've never seen her wollowing in "the brilliance of her position as the Lady of Winterfell."

There are a great many other items that could be brought forth... like I said, almost everything ever presented in one of her POV's reinforced just how spoiled and rotten and twisted and evil (and above all self centered and elitist) she is... That's why I was never able to sympathize with anything she did, or thought, or felt, or said, or had done to her...

If there are so many, quote one, other than the one I'd earlier quoted. That'd be nice. I quoted four instances that show her devotion to her children, please address those and then provide counter examples.

...at least Cersei is honest with herself about most of her evils and schemes and she genuinely cares about her children at some level or another. I don't believe for an instant that Catelyn ever thought of her children as really being anything more than symbols of her greatness and stakes to mark her claim on Ned and Winterfell. She lied to herself about how evil she truly was and about how manipulative and scheming she was and she even convinced herself that she loved Ned, when I think that Cat is the only one that Cat ever loved. She tried to portray herself as the hero facing impossible odds even in her own POV (her own mind), when (in all actuality) she was just an evil, whiney, nagging, "C" who desperately needed to have her throat slit!

Um, wanna provide evidence for what makes Cat evil? Or what she's done that's tantamount to abbetting tourture?

[Mazrick]

I don't care much for her she's boring, and brings little to the story. Some of her choices were pretty damn stupid(taking Tyrion, Freeing Jaime), and thats where my dislike of her comes from.

[Lies And Perfidy]

Disliking the character as a person and disliking the character as a part of the book are two different things, though I guess this thread is about both of em.

[Lord Mord]

Blauer Dragon.

That is not the impression that I got from her POVs... I got a theme of her telling herself she loved her kids and was devoted to her family but her actions and the things her thoughts lingered on saying that she loved Cat and was devoted to Cat.

Okay, but this is long on position, and short on evidence.

She grows angry at the meere mention of Jon's name. Some might say this was due to his being a reminder of Ned's infidelity, but she did not mind the fact that Ned cheated... See this next quote:

She said she totally understands him needing to get laid, and she expected that he'd take care of any child he fathered in such a way, So, why did it cut so deep? Because it lessened the brilliance of her position as the Lady of Winterfell and because it put a child that was not of her blood in a position to be recognized, at some level or another, as the "Son" of Ned Stark. This also made Jon a threat to the sovereignty of her claim to the inheritence of Winterfell. She did not care so much who would stand to rule after Ned's death, so long as it was someone of HER blood.

Yes; she favors her children over the children of others -- and favors them over her husband's bastards. So, she's like most any other mother. I don't suppose you have anything against motherhood, so I'm guessing there is some other point here, you're not making explicit?

There are a great many other items that could be brought forth...

Nice. May we see them, please, or are you going to continue to tease us?

like I said, almost everything ever presented in one of her POV's reinforced just how spoiled and rotten

Citation?

and twisted

Citation?

and evil

Citation?

(and above all self centered and elitist)

Citation?

That's why I was never able to sympathize with anything she did, or thought, or felt, or said, or had done to her...

Okay. So, let me recap. A woman acts like a mother; subsequently, she does a lot of other things that you know about but can't tell us that means she must be evil -- and as a result, you've no human feeling for someone whose family is killed before her, who is humiliated and nearly decapitated.

As I have said before, I am terrifically pleased that yours is not a more widely accepted sense of morality.

...at least Cersei is honest with herself about most of her evils and schemes and she genuinely cares about her children at some level or another.

Please, do a side-by-side comparison. List one of Cersei's allegedly evil acts on behalf of her children, and explicitly detail why she must, necessarily be demonstrating primarily love for her children, next to one of Catelyn's allegedly evil acts, with an explicit demonstration why she must necessarily be acting in complete disregard for her children's welfare.

You can do that, can't you?

I don't believe for an instant that Catelyn ever thought of her children as really being anything more than symbols of her greatness

Yes, you've said that already. I must ask you once again if you have anything to back that up?

and stakes to mark her claim on Ned and Winterfell.

Citation?

She lied to herself about how evil she truly was

Citation?

and about how manipulative and scheming she was

Citation?

and she even convinced herself that she loved Ned,

She convinced me, too. I don't see any evidence to the contrary.

Certainly, you haven't provided any.

when I think that Cat is the only one that Cat ever loved. She tried to portray herself as the hero facing impossible odds even in her own POV (her own mind), when (in all actuality) she was just an evil, whiney, nagging, "C" who desperately needed to have her throat slit!

Are you ever going to give an argument, or do you prefer to just keep writing the same name-calling non-argument over and over again in different words?

[Lord Mord]

Blauer Dragon,

Thank you. Maybe I need to stop trying to explain why I hate her so much and just come to a point where I can be comfortable with that hatred.

Sure. Arbitrary hatred is probably best left unexamined. After all, what can be the harm?

[Nuri Snow]

Tony Marston,

Nuri Snow,

I don't think is quite fair. Basically, this amounts to Ned saying to Cat, "Well, you've endured this humiliation and my slights against your person for all this time -- what matter a few years more?"

(...)

"Guest," in this context, refers to a state of mind. If your hostess doesn't want you, no matter how long she has had to put up with your presence, you are, to her, in that whole time, the guest of her husband, whom she must abide.

(...)

If you postulate that for Catelyn Jon is an unwanted guest (which is comprehensible), I agree - I read your earlier post in the way that Jon objectively was only a guest. This I would dispute, as the alleged son of the Lord of a Castle who lived nearly his entire life there would not be a guest, he would be Family, one of the inhabitants.

(...)

That's not, as I understand it, how the topic came about.

What I believe happened instead is: somebody made an argument to justify his or her hatred of Catelyn. Someone else characterized those arguments -- not those persons making them -- as sexist.

(...)

I don't think that classifying arguments is bad, because classification under "bad" terms, such as racist, sexist, homophobic, helps us to associate their badness with the argument.

(...)

Furthermore, a dicussion of sexist thinking helps persons previously disposed to it to avoid it in future, because they will recognize their own faulty patterns.

Ah, but if you take a look at the first page of the thread, this is exactly what happened: No "argument xy is sexist for reason z" - it's more like "Cat-bashers have sexist reasons for their bashing/amount of bashing" - which is legitimate under the thread title, I personally just don't like that kind of discussion. Identifying a specific argument as sexist is fine by me - though I prefer the rebuttal on the grounds of the weakness of the argument - it's carries less risk of sidetracking the discussion.

[Lord Mord]

Nuri,

Ah, but if you take a look at the first page of the thread, this is exactly what happened: No "argument xy is sexist for reason z" - it's more like "Cat-bashers have sexist reasons for their bashing/amount of bashing" - which is legitimate under the thread title, I personally just don't like that kind of discussion. Identifying a specific argument as sexist is fine by me - though I prefer the rebuttal on the grounds of the weakness of the argument - it's carries less risk of sidetracking the discussion.

Fair enough, on all points.

Sorry to be pompous -- but I do like talking with you. You're fair and honest and elegant.

[The_BlauerDragon]

By "close at hand", I am assuming you mean you're using them because I just spent the time to type them up earlier in the thread, and you didn't want to go looking for anything else. You even broke up the quote the same way I did. But sure, let's take a look.

You are absolutely correct in that, and I apologize... I wasn't sure if I should have quoted you, since it was a quote you'd used or not, but... um, yeah... by "Slose at hand" I meant, "Allow me to be lazy and re-use the example someone else just gave". As to the rest, you've got me to thinking that I may not have given Cat enough credit or even paid attention to some of the things she did (I totally forgot about her not eating or sleeping by Bran's side)... I'll have to give her a closer look on my next re-read.

[Nuri Snow]

Nuri,

Fair enough, on all points.

Sorry to be pompous -- but I do like talking with you. You're fair and honest and elegant.

thanks a lot for the compliment - I like your posts too, they are well thought-through, and you really answer every point of your counterpart.

[DanteGabriel]

(I totally forgot about her not eating or sleeping by Bran's side)

You claim to have read the books 23 times and yet you forgot all the time she spent by Bran's bedside? You remember her telling Jon it should have been him, but you don't remember that she was sleepless and starved and a little bent, sitting heartbroken by Bran's bedside? I guess, in your memory, she just popped into the sickroom to tell Jon she hated him and then popped right back out, eh?

[Lord Mord]

DG,

You claim to have read the books 23 times and yet you forgot all the time she spent by Bran's bedside? You remember her telling Jon it should have been him, but you don't remember that she was sleepless and starved and a little bent, sitting heartbroken by Bran's bedside? I guess, in your memory, she just popped into the sickroom to tell Jon she hated him and then popped right back out, eh?

Naturally. She had more nefarious plots to hatch! The realm doesn't tear itself apart, and the smallfolk don't burn themselves out, you know.