[AFfC Spoilers] not up to par?

[Chyttering]

But, when looking at a book in a series scheduled for 7 books, how can you *not* care what happens in future volumes? Does the remainder of the story not interest you? You say AFFC advanced the story, and it did, to a small degree - for half the characters. In the context of the series, however, it didn't go anywhere near far enough. It might not matter to you, but fans who *want* to see this thing to completion are quite right in raising this concern. Rest assured, Martin can't afford to take your relaxed approach if he wants to maintain a fanbase of any significant size...

Alazander, you've convinced me. My opinion regarding AFfC up to this point has been completely wrong, a misguided attempt to excuse Martin's failure to perfectly meet the expectations of every fan (or casual reader, if the term fan offends you). Actually enjoying AFfC is only possible to people who have no interest in ever doing anything with their lives besides reading an unending flow of ASOIAF. No, in fact, it isn't even possible for them. Anyone who thinks they enjoyed reading AFfC is just deluding themselves.

Having read AFfC, and having since been told that I didn't really like it, I will be surprised if anyone at all even bothers to buy ADwD. Martin's writing has become terrible.

Thank you, Alazander, for opening my eyes to how much I hated this book.

[Danny]

AFFC was easily the worst of the series BUT I think it was necessary for the rest of the story. It seems like a lesser book because of the last 300 pages of ASOS, which was very climactic. Tywin's death, Gregor, the Hound, and the "all intents and purposes" end of the war. AFFC needed the dust to settle to see what remained. If AFFC kept pace with ASOS, I think it would have been worse, because we'd have lost the sense of realism that makes this series special (and every character would probably die).

Also, I think the last 200 pages of Feast were spectacular.

The only problem I have with this type of opinion is that it has termed AFFC as "the worst" of the series....but then you go on to state it's necessity and how spectacular it is. It is different than ASOS, yes, and it doesn't jaw drop like AGOT, no, but there is nothing "worse" about it. It is a different part of the story...still beautifully written, and very impactful, if you'll look at all of the subtleties going on throughout. Very cool....

If we're talking about "brilliance", I note the very interesting phenomena that George's reviews for AFfC have actually been excellent, from the professional reviewers. Why should random fans be the determiners of the brilliance, rather than those who've made a career of such things? Or, in truth, vice versa?

Which is why discussing "brilliance" and whatnot is a waste.

I'll maintain that A Feast for Crows is "up to par", although that's a misleading term because it seems many seem to take this to mean, "Having the specific qualities that made its predecessors good." It does have this, to some degree, but in other areas it doesn't -- for example, the previous three novels were very much "event" books; big, impressive events happened all the time, whereas they were fewer in this novel.... If you read the series primarily for "events", then yes, I guess this one would not seem up to par.

For me, though, it only means that it's a different kind of novel, with a different aim and intent. It's constructed differently, it's themes are more unified, and so on.

On the whole, I consider AFfC a great success, given its aims. If I want to read about big events, this isn't the novel I'll read; but if I want to immerse myself in the "eye of the storm", in that quiet pause before the storm, this is going to be the one I'll pick up.

Thanks for that...

[Ashara]

Alazander, you've convinced me. My opinion regarding AFfC up to this point has been completely wrong, a misguided attempt to excuse Martin's failure to perfectly meet the expectations of every fan (or casual reader, if the term fan offends you). Actually enjoying AFfC is only possible to people who have no interest in ever doing anything with their lives besides reading an unending flow of ASOIAF. No, in fact, it isn't even possible for them. Anyone who thinks they enjoyed reading AFfC is just deluding themselves.

Having read AFfC, and having since been told that I didn't really like it, I will be surprised if anyone at all even bothers to buy ADwD. Martin's writing has become terrible.

Thank you, Alazander, for opening my eyes to how much I hated this book.

Oh, that was brilliant.

[Bob]

Here's a thought experiment for the ardent defenders of AFfC: can any of the books in the series be said to be better than the others? Can any be worse?

AFfC is a good read. The development of Jon, Sam, Arya, and Sansa has been great. I enjoy Brienne's POV, and even more I like the kinder, gentler Jaime. And boy was I ever surprised and impressed by Cersei getting caught up in her soi-disant brilliant machinations.

But the novel ended abruptly, it wasn't as crisp as the one's before, and I remain disgusted with the whole un-Cat story line.

GRRM has set a very high standard. IMO AFfC is not up to that standard. Whether or not there are good reasons for the difference in quality is a different topic.

[Danny]

Danny,

I've written plenty...especially on the way to my college diploma.

Wow, really?

Let me know as soon as you hit #1 on the best seller list...

I’ll do that. But the inferred supposition that only bestseller author are qualified to critique Martin’s work is rather silly.

Oh yeah, and that would be "than your own", not "then your own."

Thank you Miss, for taking the trouble to correct me, I always strive to write better English, it is sometimes difficult since it not my first language. Do you see my point that it’s comparatively easier to edit others people writing?

To whoever wrote the above.....

1. Editing grammatical errors is much different than editing a story for content, flow, and impact.

2. There is no supposition that only bestseller authors are qualified to critique the work...you made the issue that you were a writer and if I had ever written anything I would see your point....that was your doing

3. That would be Mr. not Miss....Danny is my real name, not a fantasy forum name I picked up while sitting around playing D&D just because I liked the character in the story

[Sword of Funny]

AryaFanNumberOne, again, let me point you to my example of Dan Brown - I think it's safe to say that, considering the large number of people who loved The DaVinci Code (judging from its numerous byproducts), the majority of readers think it's an excellent book; I thought it was one of the worst books I've ever read.

Well, I could be politically incorrect and tell you that you have higher standards than DaVinci fans... but instead I'll just point out that it gets 3.5 stars on Amazon, which definitely constitutes mixed reviews.

Secondly, Rockroi, how is stating that one liked the book and thought it represented no dropoff in quality being an "apologist"?

No need to be offended by the use of that term:

a·pol·o·gist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-pl-jst)

n.

A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution.

[groundmeat]

Edited to remove post because I don't have time for debates....

[Sword of Funny]

I thought we were talking about the quality of the book as based on its popularity, not the profit to be made off its popularity. But, since AFFC sold so well amongst the masses, and performed so well amongst professional reviewers, and even the AFFC-haters keep posting about it on message boards, I'd say he's safe to continue writing as he wishes, rather than for popular opinion.

If AFfC is indicative of a larger trend in ASoIaF, I'd expect the popularity of ASoIaF to drop dramatically after a couple more books, but it'll take a few such duds before giving up on it. For now, I'm calling it a mulligan.

[Alazander]

Alazander, you've convinced me. My opinion regarding AFfC up to this point has been completely wrong, a misguided attempt to excuse Martin's failure to perfectly meet the expectations of every fan (or casual reader, if the term fan offends you). Actually enjoying AFfC is only possible to people who have no interest in ever doing anything with their lives besides reading an unending flow of ASOIAF. No, in fact, it isn't even possible for them. Anyone who thinks they enjoyed reading AFfC is just deluding themselves.

Having read AFfC, and having since been told that I didn't really like it, I will be surprised if anyone at all even bothers to buy ADwD. Martin's writing has become terrible.

Thank you, Alazander, for opening my eyes to how much I hated this book.

Well, I do try my best to educate the masses. It can be hard, but when I see a response like yours, I know all the effort has been worthwhile.

Thank you, InsaneJawa.

Oh, what's that, you weren't serious? Have my awesome persuasive skills and debating powers failed to have the desired affect? I'm just going to have to lock myself in a darkened room until the impact of terrible blow to self-worth has worn off.

Oh, that was brilliant.

Only if you're North American and therefore possess a very underdeveloped sense of sarcasm and/or irony.

Er, I assume you are?

[Sword of Funny]

Well, I do try my best to educate the masses.

No, you forget, you're trying to convince the intellectual elite.

You're the ignorant masses whose bloodlust needs to be slaked.

[Alazander]

No, you forget, you're trying to convince the intellectual elite.

You're the ignorant masses whose bloodlust needs to be slaked.

Ah, but on these forums, the roles are reversed. To be honest Arya, the astounding intellects of the wondrous minds that frequent this forum have convinced me that all the arguments we made were entirely baseless!

Having considered the issue, I now realize that the plot DOES move forward at a considerable pace; Brienne's chapters ARE a supreme study of post-war Westeros and not, as I first perceived, chapters upon chapters of boring filler; Cersei's Valanqor WAS a fabulous literary creation that has so obviously been there from the beginning of the series, rather than quickly added to justify some plot contrivances; and, most of all, the 5 year gap for this book was, if anything, a SHORT wait for such a marvelous, flawless creation.

I am, frankly, honoured to have shared in Martin's masterpiece, and humbled to be surrounded by such enlightened, objective folk, all of whom possess the necessary literary qualifications to rebut any ridiculous criticisms of a Feast for Crows.

The Seven bless them all.

[Sword of Funny]

AND we found out the Hound is still alive (in a totally subtle way). That pretty much justifies the whole thing.

[Chyttering]

Ah, but on these forums, the roles are reversed. To be honest Arya, the astounding intellects of the wondrous minds that frequent this forum have convinced me that all the arguments we made were entirely baseless!

Having considered the issue, I now realize that the plot DOES move forward at a considerable pace; Brienne's chapters ARE a supreme study of post-war Westeros and not, as I first perceived, chapters upon chapters of boring filler; Cersei's Valanqor WAS a fabulous literary creation that has so obviously been there from the beginning of the series, rather than quickly added to justify some plot contrivances; and, most of all, the 5 year gap for this book was, if anything, a SHORT wait for such a marvelous, flawless creation.

I am, frankly, honoured to have shared in Martin's masterpiece, and humbled to be surrounded by such enlightened, objective folk, all of whom possess the necessary literary qualifications to rebut any ridiculous criticisms of a Feast for Crows.

The Seven bless them all.

I'm glad our astounding intellects could convince you. Always glad to help out some poor peon.

Oh, what's that, you weren't serious? You were just repeating what I said earlier?

Oh well, whatever. Plagiarism is the best form of flattery and all that.

Edit: Though I admit I had hoped you were serious about hiding under a rock for a while.

[Alazander]

AND we found out the Hound is still alive (in a way subtle way). That pretty much justifies the whole thing.

Gods, how could I forget that? To think that I was accusing this book of lacking plot development!

Something else you might not have considered, Arya - you do realize that SEVERAL members of the Bloody Mummers were killed during Brienne's chapters? As far as I'm concerned, that justifies FIFTY chapters being devoted to Brienne, never mind the paltry 150 or so pages we had in this book.

If Martin keeps this up, we've may even uncover the fate of Syrio Forel in ADWD!

*sniggers at the idiots accusing Martin of pulling a Jordan.*

I'm glad our astounding intellects could convince you. Always glad to help out some poor peon.

Oh, what's that, you weren't serious? You were just repeating what I said earlier?

Oh well, whatever. Plagiarism is the best form of flattery and all that.

Edit: Though I admit I had hoped you were serious about hiding under a rock for a while.

That wasn't plagiarism. That was evolution.

And it wasn't a rock, it was a darkened room. Get with the programme.

[Fashion Police]

I'm definitely joining the side that agrees with the title. This book has actually gotten me worrying if GRRM is going to make the ending of the series as magical as he did the beginning. He seems to kick ass in hinting and hiding plots and red herrings and easter eggs and generaly in not having to simplify his work by just explaining his plots so everyone would get them, but not so magical when it comes to tying up loose ends in this last book. All the huge surprises have either happened in the book or have been discussed relentlessly here, so they won't be much of a surprise anymore. Of course, I still have faith that GRRM will do his best and make me hate myself for ever doubting him in the first place.

[Ran]

Folks,

Lets keep it polite, or I'll start removing posts. If you've got nothing better to do than belittling someone, go elsewhere. (This is addressed to individuals on both sides of the argument, BTW.)

Bob,

Here's a thought experiment for the ardent defenders of AFfC: can any of the books in the series be said to be better than the others? Can any be worse?

Yes. I rate AGoT as the best novel in the series, followed by ASoS, and then ACoK and AFfC are close enough together that they are battling for third. But the margin between these four novels is pretty slim, in my mind. I've had about as much pleasure from AFfC as I did from ACoK, certainly, and not much less pleasure than the other two novels. Said pleasure derives in part from an appreciation of its aesthetic qualities (as, of course, it does with the other books).

[Alazander]

Said pleasure derives in part from an appreciation of its aesthetic qualities (as, of course, it does with the other books).

I don't think the jacket illustrations are that good.

Yeah, I've said pretty much all there is to say. From this point on, I'm an amused bystander.

FWIW, I'd rate the books as follows: AGoT 8/10, CoK 8/10, ASoS 9/10, AFfC 6/10.

[Green Apple Fossoway]

Folks,

Lets keep it polite, or I'll start removing posts. If you've got nothing better to do than belittling someone, go elsewhere. (This is addressed to individuals on both sides of the argument, BTW.)

Remember people , then , then

And in the spirit of being fair, I'll give someone else a go at big spoon

[cybroleach]

Yes. I rate AGoT as the best novel in the series, followed by ASoS, and then ACoK and AFfC are close enough together that they are battling for third. But the margin between these four novels is pretty slim, in my mind. I've had about as much pleasure from AFfC as I did from ACoK, certainly, and not much less pleasure than the other two novels. Said pleasure derives in part from an appreciation of its aesthetic qualities (as, of course, it does with the other books).

People always say stuff like that but i don't think i could ever rank them they all have strong points (and only AGOT and AFFC have low points).

In ACOT there was alot of minor set up stuff (which is to be expected in any series) then it gets rolling and it turn into this amazing thriller.

In ACOK we get this jucy war of five kings.

In ASOS we get such gripping scence as the Red Wedding and Joff's Wedding, Tyrion's trial,

In AFFC we get more political josoling and positioning, (low points being repatition of Cersie's prophacy, a suspect title, and less interesting CH titles) and ends with more amazing thriller info.

[Qyborg]

Okay, #1, do you often rank books you read based on their chapter title? And #2, do you really feel like titles "The Drowned Man," "The Kraken's Daughter," and "The Soiled Knight" are less interesting than Aeron, Asha and Arys?