the Dany hate thread

[The Lord Dragon]

I am a huge Dany fan. The Dany haters are pretty sad people. Most of them to me seem to be sexist or just bad people.

I don't think that Dany would get so much hate if she was a man. Most of the reasons given against her, her personality, ambition, arrogance are just completely ludicrous as there are many characters who are much worse in those areas than she is.

As a black man, I absolutely love Dany's character and the scenes where she freed the slaves and sacked Astapor were my favorite in the whole series. I also loved when she nailed up all the slavers in rvenge for what was done to the slaves. More slavers being killed is alright with me.

A lot of Dany haters seem saddened that the slavers get their asses kicked by Dany and that she freed the slave. I say that you folks have serious issues. Boo hoo, waah, waah. That alone makes her worthy of ruling as far as I am concerned.

Then there are the nut jobs who think that everything has been handed to her on a silver platter and they downplay her suffering. Dany's suffering has been incredible! She is an orphan who was raised by her sicko brother, who was sold into marriage at a very young age, embraced a new and intensely different culture, saw her husband and son die and is always worried about assassination attempts and betrayals.

She is noble and courageous. Her ignorance of the truth about her Targ family's madness is completely understandable since Vyseris wouldn't have told her, so from her perspective her noble family was murdered by the evil usurpers. We know that isn't so simple but she will eventually learn the truth and I wonder how it will affect her desire to rule Westeros?

[Enguerrand]

It's more playing on the 'power' thing. She wants to be the one in control of the situation. "to wear the pants." the modern expression for it.

Nice, but I was asking were you got it from.

[Daemrion]

I am a huge Dany fan. The Dany haters are pretty sad people. Most of them to me seem to be sexist or just bad people.

No, I'm not sexist or a bad person. So I think your just plain wrong there. Besides that I doubt most Dany haters are bad people. Each character has their share of haters and likers.

Then again, I suppose we are all bad people.

I don't think that Dany would get so much hate if she was a man. Most of the reasons given against her, her personality, ambition, arrogance are just completely ludicrous as there are many characters who are much worse in those areas than she is.

Whilst Dany is female and undoubtedly that does contribute to hatred of her, I can assure you that's not the primary reason of most people's hatred.

Yes, there are many other characters who are much worse, there are other characters who are better or do you claim that Dany is a paragon of all virtue and that she never puts a moral foot wrong?

And secondly, reasons for hating Dany don't always have to do with her characteristics/character either.

As a black man, I absolutely love Dany's character and the scenes where she freed the slaves and sacked Astapor were my favorite in the whole series. I also loved when she nailed up all the slavers in rvenge for what was done to the slaves. More slavers being killed is alright with me.

Okay, cool. Well I suppose that Dany being killed is alright with you too since she does indirectly support the slave trade anyway...(if you actually bothered to read the novels properly you will see that she approves of taking tax from slave sale transactions).

Secondly, the problem isn't with her freeing slaves or killing slavers who deserved to be bought to justice. It's the way that happens. Or should we go back to lynching and mob justice?

A lot of Dany haters seem saddened that the slavers get their asses kicked by Dany and that she freed the slave. I say that you folks have serious issues. Boo hoo, waah, waah. That alone makes her worthy of ruling as far as I am concerned.

No, we aren't saddened by the slavers dying per se. We are saddened by the way they died. We are saddened by the fact that she shows all the makings of a tyrant.

And woot she freed the slaves, and then promptly turned around and started/supported the slave trade again...clap clap.

Then there are the nut jobs who think that everything has been handed to her on a silver platter and they downplay her suffering. Dany's suffering has been incredible! She is an orphan who was raised by her sicko brother, who was sold into marriage at a very young age, embraced a new and intensely different culture, saw her husband and son die and is always worried about assassination attempts and betrayals.

One, her suffering is mostly off-screen/page. And every suffering suddenly magically turns into triumph.

Yes, she's sold into a marriage - but wait, she's suddenly just lucky enough to get a husband who loves her almost straight away. Yes, she loses said husband and her unborn child, but wait, she's suddenly blessed with the only three dragons left in the known world within three chapters or so.

Perhaps, those in ADWD will actually succeed in doing some damage, hopefully.

We know that isn't so simple but she will eventually learn the truth and I wonder how it will affect her desire to rule Westeros?

Yes, we all wonder. We all wonder how morally justified she will feel when she learns that her father attempted a mass genocide on the very people he was supposed to protect. Yes, we all do wonder.

Enguerrand,

Pg 438,439 ASOS Vol 2 Paperback UK version. When GRRM talks about her having sex with Irri. She wants Drogo back, and then also Daario. It's like she's in control now...though it's not as blatant as Cersei saying I want to be Robert.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with 'wearing the pants', as long as they share.

And sorry for consigning you to this short reply. The Lord Dragon's post was a bit too hard to resist.

[ccoa]

I'm 18 but I won't bother trying to prove myself against your assumptions. It's such an easy win and the ultimate internet cop out: I'm older than you and thus more mature, thus my opinion is valid and yours is not. If "wants the penis" offends you then why the hell are you reading such stories to begin with? This is a series that has continued jokes about Lord Tywin's shit being gold; is Martin immature? Apparently he never laughed at such things, only looking at them as being in the context of the story.

Slow down there, Sea Biscuit. First, I am in no way offended by your posts and opinions. If I were, I would have said so. My reaction to them was exactly what I said - they were immature. I'm sorry if I bruised your ego by calling your posts immature. I addressed each and every one of your points without playing the age card.

Before you come back with a snarky reply, consider this for about five minutes: there is no physical "you" on the Internet. You are what you say. Which means that if you act like you don't have two nuerons to rub together, that's how people will judge you. You do yourself a huge disservice by acting immature. First and foremost, no one is going to take what you say seriously if they've made up their minds that you're just another AIM generation kid (this is in no way a reference to age, I've met 40+ year olds who act in this stereotypical manner). Secondly, because you're going to get comments about your posts on occassion like mine. And judging from your response, your skin isn't thick enough for that.

Judging from your next two posts, you're capable of much more than what first appeared on my screen. But first impressions are first impressions, and not so easy to undo. Just a little friendly advice.

When Drogo wouldn't speak in the paragraphs preceding the fall of his horse, and I read that Dany was afraid, I assumed it was for herself. Even with the protection he gave her and the fact that he was going to be the father of 'the stallion who mounts the world', I predicted that it was fear for herself. Fear that this unpredictable barbarian would strike her down, plot against her; who knew at the time?

Let me see if I understand this clearly: you think Dany was afraid of Drogo? While it's certainly written that way at first, she comes to care for him a great deal, although I'm not certain that I'd classify it as love. I think it was something that would have grown into love, though, and I don't believe for a second that by the time Drogo died she was in any way afraid of him. If she were, one would expect some relief from her that he was dying. Instead, she's terrified he might die, and does everything in her power, including terrible blood magic, to try and save him.

I'm sorry, but I don't see where you got that impression from the text at all.

I am a huge Dany fan. The Dany haters are pretty sad people. Most of them to me seem to be sexist or just bad people.

Lots of people hate her because they think she's a shallow character or a Mary-Sue. How does that make them sexist or bad?

And secondly, reasons for hating Dany don't always have to do with her characteristics/character either.

Okay, cool. Well I suppose that Dany being killed is alright with you too since she does indirectly support the slave trade anyway...(if you actually bothered to read the novels properly you will see that she approves of taking tax from slave sale transactions).

Not quite how you paint it. She only allows people to sell themselves into slavery, and then taxs that. While it's sad that people would rather be pampered slaves than poor freemen, that's their own decision.

Secondly, the problem isn't with her freeing slaves or killing slavers who deserved to be bought to justice. It's the way that happens. Or should we go back to lynching and mob justice?

No, we aren't saddened by the slavers dying per se. We are saddened by the way they died. We are saddened by the fact that she shows all the makings of a tyrant.

I would disagree. I'd say that she's trying desperately to do what is right. However, she's only 14, and she still sees the world as black and white. She hasn't yet realized that the right thing isn't always obvious or easy. However, I don't see her turning from doing what is right to oppression. I think the lessons from ruling Mereen(sp?) will temper her into someone who uses more judgement and less snap decisions. But I suppose we shall see.

Yes, she's sold into a marriage - but wait, she's suddenly just lucky enough to get a husband who loves her almost straight away. Yes, she loses said husband and her unborn child, but wait, she's suddenly blessed with the only three dragons left in the known world within three chapters or so.

Straight away? The man would have sex with her every night, even though she was still sore and torn up from the first time, even though she was covered in saddle sores, not caring that he was causing her agony. Yeah. He loved her a lot from the very start.

Drogo only came to care for her when she started to show her own initiative and fire. If she'd stayed the girl who weeped into her pillow while he was mounting her, I doubt he would have.

Pg 438,439 ASOS Vol 2 Paperback UK version. When GRRM talks about her having sex with Irri. She wants Drogo back, and then also Daario. It's like she's in control now...though it's not as blatant as Cersei saying I want to be Robert.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with 'wearing the pants', as long as they share.

Having a sexual appetite is not the same as wanting to "wear the pants." Wearing the pants implies control, whereas just wanting sex is... well, just wanting sex. There's nothing saying a woman can't have a healthy libido and even be sexually aggressive and still not be the dominant partner in the relationship. I don't see Daario, for example, becoming subservient or "whipped" whether Dany sleeps with the man or not. And I suspect Dany knows that, too.

Then again, I don't have a problem with it if that's what she wants. I just don't see that reading of her character.

[Aerys II]

Having a sexual appetite is not the same as wanting to "wear the pants." Wearing the pants implies control, whereas just wanting sex is... well, just wanting sex. There's nothing saying a woman can't have a healthy libido and even be sexually aggressive and still not be the dominant partner in the relationship. I don't see Daario, for example, becoming subservient or "whipped" whether Dany sleeps with the man or not. And I suspect Dany knows that, too.

Then again, I don't have a problem with it if that's what she wants. I just don't see that reading of her character.

I'm afraid to admit that's one of the reasons I did not like her at first. A female character being sexually active, no the must all be chaste and maids!!!! I guess that's the male in me talking. That said, I believe people think she is shallow (and Cersei-lite) simply because of such sentiments.

I think she knows that the right thing doesn't always come easy. The punishment of the slaver masters in Meeren show this. She reflects back on how terrible it is and how she has "created a horror of her own", but notes that it's justice, maybe not to our 20th century standards, but justice nonetheless.

People seem to be confusing seeing the "world in black and white" with decisivenesses which in our own real world have managed to marketed into the same term (and its vice vesa with indecisivenesses as a trait of moral ambiguity).

She isn't a perfect character, but she knows that much at least, and takes the hard path to amend it.

[Errant Bard]

I am a huge Dany fan. The Dany haters are pretty sad people. Most of them to me seem to be sexist or just bad people.

I like Catelyn, I don't like Dany. Am I sexist or a bad person?

Then there are the nut jobs who think that everything has been handed to her on a silver platter and they downplay her suffering. Dany's suffering has been incredible!

It has been incredible. But each time she suffered it actually was in a way that brought her further down the road of becoming a power player in the game of Thrones. This isn't truly a criticism of Dany, this is criticism of how her story was written.

Imagine it just all happened exactly the same except Dany didn't suffer, then rate her chances of becoming Queen of Westeros with these scenarii:

0) There are no assassin after her

1) She isn't raised by Vyserys "We must reconquer our birthright" Targaryen

2) She is raised by Vyserys but she isn't sold to Drogo.

3) She is sold to Drogo, but Vyserys doesn't die/isn't such a tosser

4) Vyserys dies, but Drogo doesn't die

5) Drogo dies but slavers aren't stupid

6) Slavers are stupid but the freed slaves don't actually fight for her once freed, and choose to do something like settle down, rule by themselves and bring justice to the land.

Now, what would have been her chances with option 1 or 0? None, she would have stayed in her house with a red door, like she wanted.

With option 2, she misses the dragons, the Dothraki, the leadership experience and stays the scaredy cat she was before her marriage. Low chances of ever wanting to conquer anything, she would have stayed a puppet of Vyserys.

With option 3 and 4, even if Vyserys manages to conquer anything, she doesn't get to be in control and instead is dragged down by her children (who she will love and dedicate time to, instead of going conquering and pillaging). Not to mention, some of these childrens are Vyserys' in scenario 3. She also get no dragons.

With option 5, she gets killed by the slavers, when they show they thought about how people buying slave soldiers have the potential to actually lie and betray them.

With option 6, well, she doesn't conquer anything, and has no army to protect her of the wrath of almost anyone in the east after the sack of Astapor.

That is why I say she had it easy. Martin made it easy for her to get power. Not easy on the scale of Jon "you're LC of the NW now, congrats", but easier than Ned, Robb, Arya, Sansa or Tyrion ever had. Heh, if any group in the East had had a lord like Roose Bolton, Tywin Lannister, Cersei, Tyrion or even Walder Frey, her little adventure would have ended there and then.

[The Lord Dragon]

I'm afraid to admit that's one of the reasons I did not like her at first. A female character being sexually active, no the must all be chaste and maids!!!! I guess that's the male in me talking. That said, I believe people think she is shallow (and Cersei-lite) simply because of such sentiments.

Thanks for sharing. I also think that if she had a male hero at her side while she was accomplishing these things, then it wouldn't all seem so easy to some.

[The Lord Dragon]

I like Catelyn, I don't like Dany. Am I sexist or a bad person?

Now, what would have been her chances with option 1 or 0? None, she would have stayed in her house with a red door, like she wanted.

With option 2, she misses the dragons, the Dothraki, the leadership experience and stays the scaredy cat she was before her marriage. Low chances of ever wanting to conquer anything, she would have stayed a puppet of Vyserys.

With option 3 and 4, even if Vyserys manages to conquer anything, she doesn't get to be in control and instead is dragged down by her children (who she will love and dedicate time to, instead of going conquering and pillaging). Not to mention, some of these childrens are Vyserys' in scenario 3. She also get no dragons.

With option 5, she gets killed by the slavers, when they show they thought about how people buying slave soldiers have the potential to actually lie and betray them.

With option 6, well, she doesn't conquer anything, and has no army to protect her of the wrath of almost anyone in the east after the sack of Astapor.

That is why I say she had it easy. Martin made it easy for her to get power. Not easy on the scale of Jon "you're LC of the NW now, congrats", but easier than Ned, Robb, Arya, Sansa or Tyrion ever had. Heh, if any group in the East had had a lord like Roose Bolton, Tywin Lannister, Cersei, Tyrion or even Walder Frey, her little adventure would have ended there and then.

You may not be sexist but you may be a bad person.

You must be nuts if you think that she had an easier road to power than Robb or Sansa. They were born to power, that's it! They did nothing to earn it. Daeny was born to power, had it stripped from her and then has had to fight to gain it back. Please, your statement is ludicrous!

As to your list of people whop would have ended her "little adventure" that is pure speculstion and isn't even worth the effort fo your typing it.

[Dacey]

I like Catelyn, I don't like Dany. Am I sexist or a bad person?

What does Catelyn have to do with anything?

I'm not necessarily saying you're sexist, but it's completely possible to dislike a female character for sexist reasons and still not dislike all female characters. Aerys II mentioned that he originally disliked Dany because of the sexist belief that it's wrong for women to enjoy sex. (BTW, Aerys, I'm not attacking you here - you realized that was unfair and changed your mind, which gets major points from me.) Someone who disliked Dany for that reason might not have any problem with Catelyn, who gives little or no thought to sex after Ned dies. That wouldn't make it any less sexist.

[valar readmartin]

I notice a tendency here in the discussions of Dany's sufferings. Her "luck" is being used to somehow cancel out her trials.

Guess what folks: This is not math. The plusses do not cancel out the minuses. If five traumatic things happen to someone, five good things don't make the traumatic events go away.

Dany lost her husband and unborn child.

Dany gained three dragons.

Husband and child are still dead.

Now she is traumatized AND fortunate.

Hers is not an either/or situation.

That's one of the things I like best about Dany. Terrible things happen to her, but she is able to encompass the horror, learn from it and move forward. She is strong enough to accept the pain AND the blessings of her life.

[Errant Bard]

You must be nuts if you think that she had an easier road to power than Robb or Sansa. They were born to power, that's it! They did nothing to earn it. Daeny was born to power, had it stripped from her and then has had to fight to gain it back. Please, your statement is ludicrous!

I'm clearly nuts then. I don't think it's lucridous to recognize the ropes Martin used to make her what she is.

As to my comparison, they were all born to power, then it went down the crapper. Then Robb got a sword through the heart, Sansa is in hiding, Arya nearly lost her own identity and Dany got dragons and armies.

What you're saying is that having to fight means you don't have it easy. Now that is lucridous. If I sent a children in a ring against pro-boxers, he'd have to fight, too. If some supernatural force made the pro-boxer suddenly stupid and weak, allowing the child to barely win, you'd say he didn't have it easy?

It's not so much disliking the character, since after all Dany is a good girl dealing with the problems sent her way, but rather disliking the archetype of the perfect good guy who always win because of very visible plot armor.

What does Catelyn have to do with anything?

I'm not necessarily saying you're sexist, but it's completely possible to dislike a female character for sexist reasons and still not dislike all female characters.

Sorry, it was just aimed at Lord Dragon's notion that people disliked characters because of their gender only. But you're right, I should have said I disliked Jon and Dany equally and for the same reason.

[The Lord Dragon]

No, I'm not sexist or a bad person. So I think your just plain wrong there. Besides that I doubt most Dany haters are bad people. Each character has their share of haters and likers.

Then again, I suppose we are all bad people.

Whilst Dany is female and undoubtedly that does contribute to hatred of her, I can assure you that's not the primary reason of most people's hatred.

Whether they admit it or not, that what I sense from some.

Yes, there are many other characters who are much worse, there are other characters who are better or do you claim that Dany is a paragon of all virtue and that she never puts a moral foot wrong?

I never said that she was a paragon of virtue, never even hinted at it so why you are bringing it up is beyond me. I said that they are many characters worse than she is. That is pure fact and stands by itself as testimony to the incongruence of those who feel that she is the worst character in the book.

And secondly, reasons for hating Dany don't always have to do with her characteristics/character either.

Okay, cool. Well I suppose that Dany being killed is alright with you too since she does indirectly support the slave trade anyway...(if you actually bothered to read the novels properly you will see that she approves of taking tax from slave sale transactions).

Trying to belittle me with the "if you actually bothered to read the novels properly" is pretty pathetic on your part. I have been reading the books from the year AGOT came out and have read all of them multiple times. I have also been lurking on this board for years although I seldom post.

As to your trying to link her accepting taxes from the slave trade to being akin to a slaver, well that is just ludicrous. A slaver is one who enslaves another. Dany doesn't enslave anyone. She has freed others from slavery. She doesn't want anyone to be enslaved. When she comes upon the realization that there are those who voluntarily prefer being enslaved to freedom, she allows them to do this and taxes it. There is nothing morally wrong with that at all. You seem to be trying to make the one who frees slaves on the same immoral level as the ones who enslave others, that is why I think that some of you are just not good people.

Lets see, person A, I will tax the selling of people who voluntarily choose to sell themselves into slavery.

Person B, I will enslave you against your will, beat you, rape you, sell your children and even kill you if I want.

Sure the two are really morally comparable.

Secondly, the problem isn't with her freeing slaves or killing slavers who deserved to be bought to justice. It's the way that happens. Or should we go back to lynching and mob justice?

No, we aren't saddened by the slavers dying per se. We are saddened by the way they died. We are saddened by the fact that she shows all the makings of a tyrant.

Slavers do vile things to their slaves so how they die is of little import to me. They died the same way the slaves died so that seems like good justice to me. The whole concept of an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth is the base concept of justice in Judeo/Christian/Moslem cultures, and that's the vast majority of the planet right there.

You mention going back to lynching and mob justice, where were the courts and judges that she should have turned to? Where were the impartial state attorneys who would have made a case against the slavers? Dude, she is the ruler and the law, that is exactly how it should have happened. It was manifest justice, they got exactly what they had coming to them.

And woot she freed the slaves, and then promptly turned around and started/supported the slave trade again...clap clap.

One, her suffering is mostly off-screen/page. And every suffering suddenly magically turns into triumph.

Yes, she's sold into a marriage - but wait, she's suddenly just lucky enough to get a husband who loves her almost straight away. Yes, she loses said husband and her unborn child, but wait, she's suddenly blessed with the only three dragons left in the known world within three chapters or so.

This just seems like whining to me. You read fantasy, the hero always suffers and then good things happen to them to move the plot along and give them the power they need to be victorious. Everyone knows this so your argument that this is somehow shallow just is not convincing. I presume you are like me and have been reading fantasy books for many, many years. Think back to Lord of the Rings and how things worked out for Frodo. Getting the ring, having Sam along, getting the gifts from the elves, having Gollum there to guide him. Heroes get lucky, it is better than them being all powerful and all wise and just kicking butt that way. With "luck" you can show their vulnerabilities and make them more real. People in real life use luck and the help of others to accomplish great things.

Perhaps, those in ADWD will actually succeed in doing some damage, hopefully.

Yes, we all wonder. We all wonder how morally justified she will feel when she learns that her father attempted a mass genocide on the very people he was supposed to protect. Yes, we all do wonder.

Maybe she will decide to give up her quest to rule Westeros at that point. I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if after she vanquishes the Others that she may not be interested in ruling a large kingdom. Maybe she and John will be Lords of the North!

[Enguerrand]

Pg 438,439 ASOS Vol 2 Paperback UK version. When GRRM talks about her having sex with Irri. She wants Drogo back, and then also Daario. It's like she's in control now...

And this is about control how? She dreams about a man, mostly her late husband and uses her handmaid as a sexual aid, and is rather uncomfortable about it.

She isn’t interested in Jorah that she has under control, but she is attracted to Daario that she describes as someone that can "rape a woman with his eyes". If anything it seems she is looking for an assertive man.

[The Sword of Early Afternoon]

Dany and Brienne are the most hated characters b/c they don't act the way people want women to behave. They're threatening, each in their own way. I don't think this explains 100% of Dany-hate, but I think it's more than half of it.

Even Mel comes off as much more "classically feminine" -- a manipulator more than a driver.

[Daemrion]

Not quite how you paint it. She only allows people to sell themselves into slavery, and then taxs that. While it's sad that people would rather be pampered slaves than poor freemen, that's their own decision.

Yes, that's their own decision. She's still profiting from it. She doesn't seem to have any compunctions about profiting from the trade that is claimed that she hates.

I would disagree. I'd say that she's trying desperately to do what is right. However, she's only 14, and she still sees the world as black and white. She hasn't yet realized that the right thing isn't always obvious or easy. However, I don't see her turning from doing what is right to oppression. I think the lessons from ruling Mereen(sp?) will temper her into someone who uses more judgement and less snap decisions. But I suppose we shall see.

Yes. I know. That doesn't detract from the moral outrage at what she has committed from us readers who have 21st century morals and ethics.

Straight away? The man would have sex with her every night, even though she was still sore and torn up from the first time, even though she was covered in saddle sores, not caring that he was causing her agony. Yeah. He loved her a lot from the very start.

Drogo only came to care for her when she started to show her own initiative and fire. If she'd stayed the girl who weeped into her pillow while he was mounting her, I doubt he would have.

As early as pg 108 in AGOT it seems as if she enjoys her wedding night sex. We get the impression that he loved her. By page 230 (which is like her next chapter) she's finding pleasure in her 'bad marriage'. So it's not as bad as other marriages that we have seen intimately - eg. Aerys/Rhaella, Robert/Cersei. It's not as good as Ned/Cat, but it doesn't seem to be written as the worst thing in the world.

Having a sexual appetite is not the same as wanting to "wear the pants." Wearing the pants implies control, whereas just wanting sex is... well, just wanting sex.

The potential is there. And considering that she already does it with her handmaidens who for all intents and purposes are under her control...

The Lord Dragon,

That is pure fact and stands by itself as testimony to the incongruence of those who feel that she is the worst character in the book.

Worst morally she is not. Worst overall, she may be. I can say she's not my least favourite character overall (that has to go to people like Aerys, Gregor, Biter, Rorge etc...), but out of POVs probably (it would be down to her and Cersei for me).

A slaver is one who enslaves another. Dany doesn't enslave anyone. She has freed others from slavery. She doesn't want anyone to be enslaved. When she comes upon the realization that there are those who voluntarily prefer being enslaved to freedom, she allows them to do this and taxes it. There is nothing morally wrong with that at all.

So are you really asserting that there is nothing inherently morally wrong with slavery?

In any case, you can't really say she doesn't know that these people are actually selling themselves into slavery. You can't genuinely claim that she is not supporting the slavery system through her actions. Those who support the system may not be as bad as those who actually do it, but in my book they are still bad.

Furthermore, she profits from it and thinks yes, conquering Westeros needs gold. I will get gold from this tax. If she used the gold to institute change - such as helping the free become self-sufficient then that might be praiseworthy. But her first thought is use these taxes for my conquest.

Slavers do vile things to their slaves so how they die is of little import to me. They died the same way the slaves died so that seems like good justice to me.

So what, in the 21st century we sentence paedophiles to be magically turned into children and then raped? Does our justice system sanction the rape of rapists, strangling of stranglers, torturing of torturers?

The whole concept of an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth is the base concept of justice in Judeo/Christian/Moslem cultures, and that's the vast majority of the planet right there.

This misrepresents what justice in Christianity is about. Justice in the Christian faith belongs to God.

Secondly, most legal systems have moved on from that sort of thinking. We do have things called jails and trials and juries. There are also concepts in criminal law thinking such as rehabilitation. And even where we think about retribution as a function of the criminal law we don't inflict the same thing.

You mention going back to lynching and mob justice, where were the courts and judges that she should have turned to? Where were the impartial state attorneys who would have made a case against the slavers? Dude, she is the ruler and the law, that is exactly how it should have happened. It was manifest justice, they got exactly what they had coming to them.

Again, I point to the manner of death. The manner of death is horrible, and the way she treated the bodies afterwards. Hanging the dead bodies in public does hark back lynching and mob justice does it not?

Trying to belittle me with the "if you actually bothered to read the novels properly" is pretty pathetic on your part. I have been reading the books from the year AGOT came out and have read all of them multiple times. I have also been lurking on this board for years although I seldom post.

I think it's pretty safe to assume that everyone here has read the books multiple times. Doesn't mean that I've absorbed every detail in the book. (That's why I love the Details, Details, Details threads that we have had...)

And it did seem in your zeal to praise her you did seem to miss the part where she profits from the slave trade. Your post sounded like a piece of Dany propaganda...which was inaccurate.

This just seems like whining to me. You read fantasy, the hero always suffers and then good things happen to them to move the plot along and give them the power they need to be victorious.

I know. They do, but for Dany they happen all too quickly. In the space of two chapters she loses Drogo and whoosh she has dragons.

Dany and Brienne are the most hated characters b/c they don't act the way people want women to behave. They're threatening, each in their own way. I don't think this explains 100% of Dany-hate, but I think it's more than half of it.

Hate Dany, Love Brienne. Go figure.

[Dacey]

So are you really asserting that there is nothing inherently morally wrong with slavery?

Oh, come on.

That is just not a reasonable interpretation of what Lord Dragon said at all. He's been very clear about his(?) moral disapproval of slavery. You may feel that Dany's decision to profit from certain of her citizens' free choice to sell themselves into slavery - even though she does nothing to encourage that choice, and, in fact, the tax serves to actively discourage it - is inconsistent with a general disapproval of slavery. He clearly does not (and, I might add, Dany doesn't either, as her disgust with slavery in general is really pretty clear).

I am really having a hard time believing that you're arguing in good faith at this point.

[Demonic Weasel]

Oh, come on.

That is just not a reasonable interpretation of what Lord Dragon said at all. He's been very clear about his(?) moral disapproval of slavery. You may feel that Dany's decision to profit from certain of her citizens' free choice to sell themselves into slavery - even though she does nothing to encourage that choice, and, in fact, the tax serves to actively discourage it - is inconsistent with a general disapproval of slavery. He clearly does not (and, I might add, Dany doesn't either, as her disgust with slavery in general is really pretty clear).

I am really having a hard time believing that you're arguing in good faith at this point.

Although I'm certain that my help isn't needed for the defense, I'll say this anyway; Daemrion wasn't mis-interperting Lord Dragon's points on slavery, rather pointing out that LD's got a contradiction in his point. If one accepts part of slavery morally, that easily extends to accepting, reluctantly or not, all of slavery morally. That's a well-established tenent of philosphy, accepting part of the whole will lead to accepting the whole.

Anyway, I have to say, I love threads like this. People rant about their opinions as though they're facts, and then get into highly reasonable debates in which most people try to use semantics and manipulation to to suggest 'I'm right and you're wrong.' In my defense; there's nothing wrong with this, nor am I targeting anyone in particular. I just find it amusing.

As for Dany myself, I'm not all that fond of her. I never have been.

[Trackrunner]

Anyway, I have to say, I love threads like this. People rant about their opinions as though they're facts, and then get into highly reasonable debates in which most people try to use semantics and manipulation to to suggest 'I'm right and you're wrong.' In my defense; there's nothing wrong with this, nor am I targeting anyone in particular. I just find it amusing.

Heh. I find the Catelyn vs. Jon threads amusing for the same reasons. Long after GRRM has finished the series, long after the R+L=J, Jaime Love, SanSan, and Best Fighter threads have disappeared, long after WWIII has come and gone and the world is ruled by aliens with laser guns... we'll still have the Catelyn vs. Jon threads. Like cockroaches.

And just to keep things On Topic: I love Dany. It's nice to see the heroine of a fantasy story progress, instead of starting out as the multiple-super-power, sexy-as-hell, tough-as-nails Mary Sue like most fantasy heroines.

[Dacey]

Although I'm certain that my help isn't needed for the defense, I'll say this anyway; Daemrion wasn't mis-interperting Lord Dragon's points on slavery, rather pointing out that LD's got a contradiction in his point. If one accepts part of slavery morally, that easily extends to accepting, reluctantly or not, all of slavery morally. That's a well-established tenent of philosphy, accepting part of the whole will lead to accepting the whole.

Yes, I know he thinks it's contradictory. That's the point. If it was just an honest misinterpretation, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Remember what I said?

You may feel that Dany's decision to profit from certain of her citizens' free choice to sell themselves into slavery - even though she does nothing to encourage that choice, and, in fact, the tax serves to actively discourage it - is inconsistent with a general disapproval of slavery. He clearly does not...

Asserting something that Daemrion thinks should logically lead to moral acceptance of slavery - even if he's absolutely correct about the logic - is not the same thing as "asserting that there is nothing inherently morally wrong with slavery." Clearly LD thinks there is something inherently morally wrong with slavery. Just as clearly, he does not think there's any contradiction between holding that belief and approving of Dany's policies in Mereen. It would be perfectly appropriate to argue with him by saying, "There's a contradiction in your point. What you've said logically implies moral approval of slavery in general, for the following reasons..." That's not at all the same thing as asking someone if they're "really asserting" something that you know perfectly well they're not trying to assert, without even offering an explanation of why you chose to interpret their words that way. It's disingenuous and annoying at best, and doesn't contribute to the debate.

By the way, I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by "accepting part of the whole will lead to accepting the whole." What you're saying there sounds to me more than anything else like the slippery slope fallacy, which is pretty much the opposite of a well-established tenet of philosophy. (But, like I said, whether or not the logical principle you and Daemrion are using is valid is totally beside my point.)

[ccoa]

Yes, that's their own decision. She's still profiting from it. She doesn't seem to have any compunctions about profiting from the trade that is claimed that she hates.

Please. That's politics and government. The government profits from every move people make that might involve money changing hands, that's the way the world works.

How is it morally wrong for a person to choose slavery? Following that logic, how is it morally wrong for the government to profit from a sales transaction following someone freely and in sound mental health choosing slavery? Slavery in general is evil, because it is taking the free will, dignity, and individuality of a person. A person choosing slavery is giving up their free will of their own free will. Nothing has been taken from them. One could even argue that since they pocket the money from the transaction and get room, board, clothing, and meals it is more of a servitude than true slavery. And apparently a nicer fate than living in poverty.

You're deliberately misrepresenting Dany's actions and the words of other posters in order to paint her in the worst possible light.

Yes. I know. That doesn't detract from the moral outrage at what she has committed from us readers who have 21st century morals and ethics.

And yet you love and defend Jaime Lannister, who participated in the rape and destruction of the Riverlands with absolutely no moral justification. Or is it okay because that's all offscreen?

As early as pg 108 in AGOT it seems as if she enjoys her wedding night sex. We get the impression that he loved her. By page 230 (which is like her next chapter) she's finding pleasure in her 'bad marriage'. So it's not as bad as other marriages that we have seen intimately - eg. Aerys/Rhaella, Robert/Cersei. It's not as good as Ned/Cat, but it doesn't seem to be written as the worst thing in the world.

Not being as bad as Aerys/Rhaella or Robert/Cersei doesn't make it good, by a long shot. It takes months for saddle sores to heal, not to mention any internal injuries caused by her first time or subsequent times. Months of uncaring agony inflicted on her. Not exactly this happy-happy marriage you see to want to make it out to be.

He did not love her from the start, love at first meeting is a myth. Although he's gentle with her on the first night (or at least, as much of it as we see), he is not thereafter. So he's not a rapist. That doesn't make him an ideal husband or imply he loves her.

Enjoying sex is not loving a person. Nor does slowly coming to find good in the bad in any way make the first few weeks or months any less of a trial.

The potential is there. And considering that she already does it with her handmaidens who for all intents and purposes are under her control...

Once again misrepresenting what happened. It happened once with one handmaid, so she doesn't "do it" with her handmaids. Irri initiated the sexual contact on her own, Dany didn't ask for it, invite it, or order it. No control. Thereafter, she feels guilty about it and won't accept it again when offered.