the Dany hate thread

[A wilding]

She only has those two characterisations. Either she comes off as a Mary-Sue or she comes off as Cersei-clonebot. Doesn't make her a very interesting character.

That is a difficult charge to defend against, seeing that they are opposite extremes. However, I think some of her actions definitely fall somewhere between. For example her executing an number of Meereen citizens equal to the number of child slaves they had killed, which you have already mentioned. A Mary Sue would surely not be so brutal as to execute people in such a way, while Cersei would simply not care about her enemies choosing to kill some of their own slaves.

[Daemrion]

It's more the over-the-top drastic reaction rather than the 'not caring' that I was trying to highlight with the Cersei's-clonebot

[Ealasaid]

I don't hate Dany. I find her and her chapters uninteresting. Nothing is explained. What did Pyat Pree expect to happen in the house of the undying? What's the deal with Quaithe?

For a woman who has had an enjoyable sex life, why hasn't she taken a lover?

I just find her flat and the dragons aren't very interesting either.

[ccoa]

For a woman who has had an enjoyable sex life, why hasn't she taken a lover?

For several reasons, I think. First, I suspect because she understands the political ramifacations of doing so. Also, thanks to the Undying and Mormont, she doesn't really trust anyone in her bed (she has at least one, possibly two more betrayals coming). And finally, I think she's still getting over Drogo to some extent. If my husband died, it would probably be years before I slept with anyone else.

I don't hate Dany, but I don't love her either. I don't really find her to be a Mary-Sue, just a girl with a lot of charisma and given too much power (dragons and rulership) before she was mature enough to deal with it. She might make a good queen some day, if she ever figures out the world isn't black and white and doing the right thing isn't always clear-cut.

[TheSeedisStrongest]

lol it has nothing to do with Drogo. She just doesnt do it. Doesnt that pervert Martin have her and one of her handmaids get borderline freaky? Plus she totally wanted one guy. I can't remember his name but you could tell Dany wanted the penis.

I personally didn't like Dany a whole heck of a lot until A Storm of Swords. I understand where the hate comes from though, as her story progresses slowly and she only does whats perceived as 'right' or 'wrong'.

The "a dragon is not a slave" moment got me. Yeah, so it might be a ridiculous moment and quote. But still AWESOME. I'd like to hear of more circumstances with people trying to do similar things, in freeing the slaves, but failing. Otherwise, why Daenerys?

[ccoa]

lol it has nothing to do with Drogo. She just doesnt do it. Doesnt that pervert Martin have her and one of her handmaids get borderline freaky? Plus she totally wanted one guy. I can't remember his name but you could tell Dany wanted the penis.

Wow, that was mature.

She thinks often of Drogo, especially when Jorah tries to seduce her. So where are you getting it has nothing to do with him?

She didn't set out to seduce her handmaid, her handmaid took the initiative. And afterwards, she refuses to do it again. And why is a single lesbian sex scene "perverted?" Compared to most of the sex and violence in ASoIaF, it was pretty mild.

Dany does notice Daario. However, she hasn't acted on those feelings. That indicates she may be getting over Drogo, but is still held back by either natural reticence, the political reasons, or her fear of betrayal.

[TheSeedisStrongest]

Wow, that was mature.

I don't see what's immature about it. Do the words "penis" and "pervert" frighten you? A fool could see that Martin probably has a boner when hes writing some of the stuff in these books.

Drogo feeling up Daenerys nipples and a knight of the kingsguard telling Cersei he wants to screw her with her crown on?

The second would make any man aroused. The only thing stopping the former is the fact that Daenerys is thirteen at the time.

[ccoa]

Not the content, but the way you said it is generally immature. I mean, "wants the penis?" Not exactly a mature way to discuss sex, don't you think? If pressed, I'd place your age at about 13-15 just by those comments.

I sincerely doubt that every single man on the planet would be aroused by reading Dany's wedding night. Just to prove it: my husband wasn't, and he's a perfectly healthy male with perfectly healthy sexual appetites. And how is someone wanting to have sex with a woman while she's wearing a crown so universally arousing?

Edited for grammar

[Errant Bard]

And how is someone wanting to have sex with a woman while she's wearing a crown so universally arousing?

Hey, who would not get aroused when thinking "you can leave your crown on"?

Of course, it could also be that the guy is linking sex with submission of the woman, and the more powerful she is, the more enjoyable it is to submit her. Having her wear her crown reinforces visually the fact that she's powerful. It's not the crown, it's the power, or something like that anyway.

Or it could be simple fetishism, stranger things have been known to happen.

[Daemrion]

Dany wants to be the 'male' in the relationship, sorta like Cersei and Taena. The one who gets the other to submit.

[TheSeedisStrongest]

Not the content, but the way you said it is generally immature. I mean, "wants the penis?" Not exactly a mature way to discuss sex, don't you think? If pressed, I'd place your age at about 13-15 just by those comments.

I sincerely doubt that every single man on the planet would be aroused by reading Dany's wedding night. Just to prove it: my husband wasn't, and he's a perfectly healthy male with perfectly healthy sexual appetites. And how is someone wanting to have sex with a woman while she's wearing a crown so universally arousing?

Edited for grammar

I'm 18 but I won't bother trying to prove myself against your assumptions. It's such an easy win and the ultimate internet cop out: I'm older than you and thus more mature, thus my opinion is valid and yours is not. If "wants the penis" offends you then why the hell are you reading such stories to begin with? This is a series that has continued jokes about Lord Tywin's shit being gold; is Martin immature? Apparently he never laughed at such things, only looking at them as being in the context of the story.

In relation to Drogo, I'll just say that I'll never understand any love Dany still has for him. You can give your excuses about how he was the first and the promises he gave her, but nothing can the fact that he was a monster. Had she been a common village girl, he would have raped her, let his bloodriders mount her, and then killed her.

When Drogo wouldn't speak in the paragraphs preceding the fall of his horse, and I read that Dany was afraid, I assumed it was for herself. Even with the protection he gave her and the fact that he was going to be the father of 'the stallion who mounts the world', I predicted that it was fear for herself. Fear that this unpredictable barbarian would strike her down, plot against her; who knew at the time?

[Aerys II]

I'm really not seeing the criticisms against Dany regarding forcing her rule upon Westeros. Its exactly the same sentiments as the others who claim the iron throne. At the same time, her main understanding of the political situation has come from Viserys, who of course believes ardently that the iron throne belongs to the Targayans. Sharing a belief with a family member no matter how unlikely it is is not unnatural. However, now that Ser Selmy is at her side, she is beginning to see the other side and willingly as well.

And to the person who says that anyone can take over Westeros with 3 dragons and thousands of unsulled, she has thus far chosen not to, but rather to see if she is capable of ruling, and that I believe sets her apart from everyone else. She takes counsel from others, but at the same time can think for herself and to brilliant results as seen in ASOS.

Danys is my favorite character, not only in the series, but maybe in all fantasy literature and then some. Admittedly, I hated her in AGOT, for a rather silly reason. I couldn't wrap my head around how a major character in the story would willingly make love to a barbarian.

[Daemrion]

I'm really not seeing the criticisms against Dany regarding forcing her rule upon Westeros.

It all spawns from the character with your username.

She doesn't deserve the throne. It's not her's by rights (in a moral sense, and a legal sense though that's more debatable) not after what your usernamed character did.

[Aerys II]

It all spawns from the character with your username.

She doesn't deserve the throne. It's not her's by rights (in a moral sense, and a legal sense though that's more debatable) not after what your usernamed character did.

Explain how she doesn't deserve the throne in terms of capability and not legality/morality. Is it because she is a woman? And how does the father's actions deny a daughter of any right?

[TheSeedisStrongest]

She takes counsel from others, but at the same time can think for herself and to brilliant results as seen in ASOS.

Can I just say that that was some bad writing (the book, not you)? Ok not bad, as it was very entertaining but simply unrealistic. Why do I debate realism in a fantasy novel? B/c I have too much damn time on my hands and feel like writing something. Yeah.

The prowess she shows in handling an army isn't close to believable. That is the type of thing that you have to learn from someone; you don't become a Tywin overnight. Had she had a serious mentor who had been teaching her exactly that, then it might have been believable. But as we know, she didn't. Visery's pathetic schemes were probably the closest she'd ever really heard of battling on a large scale, and Mormont was damn near useless.

As Tywin says, Robb is merely a boy, so it's only natural that he himself had to see many men die before understanding the rules of battle in order to underestimate him as he did. Why should Dany be any different? "But Robb Stark succeeded," you may say. Yes, because of years in which his father groomed him for command and because of wise counsel given to him about his enemies. Daenerys had neither. I'm sure I'll hear "she is Azor Ahai reborn!, she needs no mentors, she is fate walking!". Sorry, but that just doesn't cut it. You can't magically fit the pieces of living men dying for you into a jigsaw puzzle as if you're a savant. Martin should have given her some great tutors early on. Her handmaids seem more useful than half the people she gets and all that stuff in the scene where she brought all her enemies before her to trick them was ridiculous. It's basically Martin saying "ah she's no man, she conquers her enemies with her mind! Prepare for the storm (of swords)!" Come on now.

[Aerys II]

The prowess she shows in handling an army isn't close to believable. That is the type of thing that you have to learn from someone; you don't become a Tywin overnight. Had she had a serious mentor who had been teaching her exactly that, then it might have been believable. But as we know, she didn't. Visery's pathetic schemes were probably the closest she'd ever really heard of battling on a large scale, and Mormont was damn near useless.

I find it more than believable that her cunning grows as the story progresses. As a young child she was forced to travel from place to place, and along the way she learn to pick up things and adapt to the various cultures. No tutor can instill that kind of knowledge. This is evidenced by the many languages she knows. She wins her battles not through war leadership but through cunning. The manner in which she takes Yunkai shows this. Only 200 are killed during the battle because she has the wits to take them by surprise. She also understood that she is not a general and was able to delegate responsibility to other more capable people such as to Jorah. What is however, is queen, maybe not rightfully of Westeros but to the thousands that have started to follow her.

I wouldn't dismiss Mormont so outright as worthless. Mormont is a veteran of both Robert's Rebellion and the Greyjoy rebellion.

Edit for clarification

[Daemrion]

Explain how she doesn't deserve the throne in terms of capability and not legality/morality. Is it because she is a woman? And how does the father's actions deny a daughter of any right?

Firstly, why not morality and legality? Morality and Legality are things that hold up society itself in Westeros. Why else is there outcry over who is the proper King? We aren't in a utilitarian society in Westeros.

Second, as to father's actions:

Why did Aerion Brightflame's infant son get denied his rights let me ask you?

Answer: Insane father for a Prince.

Why should Dany be passed over?

Answer: Insane father pissed all over any moral notions of kingship, he basically tore up the feudal contract when he decided to burn Lord Stark and all the others without proper trial. And he was the one who decided to perpetrate genocide of the people he was supposed to protect as a big [censored for expletive] at Robert.

At least Brightflame only managed to kill himself through his craziness. Aerys would have taken hundreds of thousands with him.

Thirdly, re her being female

It's not because she's a woman. Viserys isn't fit for the throne either.

Fourth, In terms of capability -

1. Her actions are too extreme in some cases and absolutely stupid in others.

2. Also see the whole Cersei-clonebot/Mary-Sue DID that she has earlier in this thread.

[Anthem]

I am 'meh' about Dany. I think it would be awesome if GRRM breaks the mould by having the fated 'Prince who was Promised' fail and die... she's just too special compared with all the other characters - silver hair, purple eyes, 'reborn' in fire, possesses dragons.

As a character I'm indifferent towards her. She's no way near as detestable as the Mountain that Rides, but she is not my ultimate favourite character.

[Enguerrand]

For a woman who has had an enjoyable sex life, why hasn't she taken a lover?

Hmm one reason could be that it’s considered morally wrong. Cersei hardly isn’t doing her royal image any good by spreading her legs left an right.

Otherwise you have Daenerys own reason.

Dany tried to imagine what it would be like if she allowed Daario to kiss her, the way Jorah had kissed her on the ship. The thought was exciting and disturbing, both at once. It is too great a risk. The Tyroshi sellsword was not a good man, no one needed to tell her that. Under the smiles and the jests he was dangerous, even cruel. Sallor and Prendahl had woken one morning as his partners; that very night he’d given her their heads. Khal Drogo could be cruel as well, and there was never a man more dangerous. She had come to love him all the same. Could I love Daario? What would it mean, if I took him into my bed?

A fool could see that Martin probably has a boner when hes writing some of the stuff in these books.

I doubt that very much. Once you leave the teenage behind you, you be surprised how much stimulation is necessary to get a boner.

I'll just say that I'll never understand any love Dany still has for him. You can give your excuses about how he was the first and the promises he gave her, but nothing can the fact that he was a monster.

It’s quite easy. If you lived in the middle ages you would also love a monster that would put the fear of god into those who would do you harm.

Dany has lived in fear and dependency for her entire life. Khal Drogo was the first man able and willing to protect her. This guy was about to start a world war because there had been attempts on her life. I don’t think you need to be a teenage girl to be impressed. Add to that Drogo’s appreciation of her efforts to adjust, how he is mindful of her views even though she realizes it could have been much differently if Drogo hasn’t been so singularly unique. And then he was your average handsome and physically perfect alpha male. ruling hundred of thousands of people by personal ability and charisma. She judge all men by him and it turns out they are wimps.

I have little trouble understanding her love for him.

When Drogo wouldn't speak in the paragraphs preceding the fall of his horse, and I read that Dany was afraid, I assumed it was for herself. Even with the protection he gave her and the fact that he was going to be the father of 'the stallion who mounts the world', I predicted that it was fear for herself. Fear that this unpredictable barbarian would strike her down, plot against her; who knew at the time?

Your interpretation have little merit. Sure she should fear for herself, with Khal Drogo’s she was untouchable, should he succumb to disease she would be nothing to the dothraki, but it’s quite clear that it’s the her husbands health that is uppermost in her mind. She was even prepared to sacrifice her own life so that he would live.

Dany wants to be the 'male' in the relationship, sorta like Cersei and Taena. The one who gets the other to submit.

Were do you get this from? Those men she is attracted to couldn’t be further from bottom material.

[Daemrion]

Were do you get this from? Those men she is attracted to couldn’t be further from bottom material.

It's more playing on the 'power' thing. She wants to be the one in control of the situation. "to wear the pants." the modern expression for it.