Asshai/Wall relationship (aDwD spoiler)

[Kuzbad]

Or it could be more generic and spiritual--like an axis mundi.

In some Islamic traditions there is a belief that in every generation there is a qutub -- meaning pole/axis/pivot (something like that) -- a person who is especially holy--the perfect human. A possessor of secret esoteric knowledge, and someone through whom the Divine communicates. There must always be a qutub, as he (or she I suppose) somehow anchors the existence of the world. There are parallels to other society's Fisher King for instance, I think.

Anyway, what's interesting to me is the Wall's role as a hinge. What does it mean... Is it due to the secret knowledge? It's role in protecting good from evil? The physical entity? etc. I don't think GRRM is borrowing anything from Islamic mysticism, but to some degree mysticism is mysticism, be it pagan, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever. Maybe Dany will be a messianic figure

[Guest Other-in-law]

Anyway, what's interesting to me is the Wall's role as a hinge. What does it mean... Is it due to the secret knowledge? It's role in protecting good from evil? The physical entity?

I'd say it means the physical and magical entity of the Wall is so important that the fate of the world turns on it....it's one of the crucial points in maintaining the limited balance of nature and the seasons, such as it is.

Lady Shella,

Something that's been stuck on my mind lately about the Shadow are the references about having to pass "beneath" it. The idea that it may be the Wall's counterpart is very nice, but if you can pass under the Shadow (or at least if you're supposed to), then it doesn't look much like containing or holding something back.

The theory isn't that the Shadow is a barrier that parallels the Wall, it's that it's a dangerous magical (and perhaps meteorological) phenomenon that parallels "Winter" (that is to say, the Others and the Long Night they bring with them). The parallel to the Wall would be either the Rh'llorian faith (which celebrates light and fire) or the Shadowbinders (sorcerors who bend magical shadows to their will, and force them to obey).

Thus, the permeability of the Shadow is comparable to the heart of Winter, which Bran may need to pass through on his path.

Back to the spiritual angle, it seems to me that the Shadowbabies that Mel bore for Stannis represent the darker side of his soul; part of him clearly wanted to see his brother dead (and maybe he really didn't find the other part of him that didn't until afterward) but he didn't physically do the deed himself. Only by Mel releasing his dark desires through her maegi enchantments was he to kill Renly. What does that say about 'the Shadow'? Is it the malefic id of the entire world made manifest? If so, how did it come into being? Somehow I suspect the ancient conflict between the First Men and the Children of the Forest somehow caused the world to spin out of balance and resulted in all of these things. As though before their war, the world was in a state of balance and harmony like Eden before the fall.

[Stratonice]

But, on the other hand, they only exist due to the light. It looks like the Others need the cold (and darkness I think) to live, shadows (and perhaps demons) need the light to live.

I don't really buy that a shadow belongs to the light or need it to "live". A shadow is a dark place where the light doesn't reach because something is blocking it. What the light source does is not so much giving birth to/creating a shadow as it is dimnishing the darkness in a place until it has visible boundries where something is blocking the light (which is what we call a shadow). If the shadow is a place the light can't reach, how can the shadow belong to the light? It seems obvious to me that a shadow is dimnished darkness as it gets smaller and more vague the more light there is until it disappears completely. If light is what feeds a shadow, what a shadow lives on, shouldn't the oposite be true? That the shadow became bigger and stronger the more light there is?

ETA that I like the idea of Valyria as some kind of balancing point.

[Knight o' Pansies]

The Shadows come to stay my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord -Patchface

I've always understood that line to mean Mel herself, as a shadowbinder, and as we learn later on, her shadowbabies.

We hear it in the prologue IIRC, perhaps to tell us she's here to stay and that poor old Cressen is a gonner.

[Roi Woodt]

Stratonice,

If the shadow is a place the light can't reach, how can the shadow belong to the light?

If light wouldn’t exist, shadows wouldn’t either. A completely dark room has no shadows.

It seems obvious to me that a shadow is diminished darkness as it gets smaller and more vague the more light there is until it disappears completely.

You mean a bigger source of the light, not a bigger intensity. A bigger source means that less light is blocked by an obstruction. If you only intensify the light, the shadow becomes darker, because the surroundigs will be brighter.

That the shadow became bigger and stronger the more light there is?

If there is more light, the parts surrounding the shadows becomes more visible and the shadow grows darker, if you ask me. So, more light, results in a darker shadow.

[Stratonice]

Stratonice,

If light wouldn’t exist, shadows wouldn’t either. A completely dark room has no shadows.

I don't agree with this either. I don't believe that a shadow is essentially different from darkness. A shadow is what we call darkness that has visible boundries but it's still darkness. A dark room is dark for the same reason there are shadows, something (walls, roof, etc) blocks the (sun)light from reaching it. So it would be more acurate to say that the object blocking the light is what creates and feeds the shadow since the shadow is darker and lasts longer the better the object is at blocking the light.

You mean a bigger source of the light, not a bigger intensity. A bigger source means that less light is blocked by an obstruction. If you only intensify the light, the shadow becomes darker, because the surroundigs will be brighter.

No, I wasn't talking about the light source as such but about the amount of light in a place. It's how effective an object is at blocking the light that determines the size and strength of the shadow.

If there is more light, the parts surrounding the shadows becomes more visible and the shadow grows darker, if you ask me. So, more light, results in a darker shadow.

But it's not the shadow getting darker but the surroundings getting lighter. In most cases the shadow would grow less dark too, how much so would depend on how effective the object is at blocking the light source. If you walk in to the kitchen at night only lit by faint moonlight and you turn on the light, the area under the kitchentable gets lighter than it was too even if it's still darker than the rest of the kitchen. Do the same thing in the living room and the area under the couch will be darker than the area under the kitchentable even if the light source is just as big, just as bright and in the same distance. If the light was what fed the shadow then they would be equally strong if the light sources were equal in size, strength and distance as well as the shadowy areas under the kitchen table and the couch would get objectively darker not just in comparison with the surroundings when you turn on the light (which actually kills a lot of shadows created by the walls blocking the moonlight from reaching a lot of places).

[Roi Woodt]

A shadow is what we call darkness that has visible boundries but it's still darkness.

A shadow = darkness, darkness does not neccesarily = shadow. As you say, it should have visible boundaries, there are non in a completely dark room.

The shadow beneath the table is more bright because there is more space between the blocking object and the floor (on which the shadow can be seen). Therefor scattered light, reflected from the walls and other objects in the room can reach the floor as well, not blocked by the table and taking away some darkness of the shadow.

[Guest Other-in-law]

I'm not certain what exactly it is that you two are disagreeing about at this point, but I would normally take the side that a shadow does indeed require a light source to give it definition. I'm not at all sure that such is the case with the Shadow by Asshai, though. If it is a magical phenomenon, like Mel's shadowbabies, then all bets are off as to how it works.

In those cases, even though some light source was needed to be able to see the shadowbaby, it was not an actual cast shadow. That is, it's shape was that of King Stannis, but it was not given that shape by King Stannis physically blocking the light from the lamp or brazier in the tent or cave where the shadowbaby was....he was actually a mile or so away. Those magical shadows are something else, palpable darkness entering into the world and taking their own shapes, not a mundane optical phenomenon. I imagine "the Shadow" as operating according to it's own rules that way....possibly a huge roiling mass of darkness sprawled across the sky, even in the middle of the brightest days.

[Denver]

Maybe an interesting difference in this "Shadow by Asshai/Heart of Winter by The Wall" dichotomy is that the rumors and snippets we get of Asshai make it out to be a somewhat interesting and exciting place. (Apparently there could be dragons there, magic might still exist in Asshai, they have "shadowbinders")

Whereas activity at The Wall has been much more mundane these last 8,000 years since the Others have come - and certainly the austerity of action at the Wall these past hundred years or so only intensifies when compared to the rumors of Asshai.

Just a thought; maybe it's something. :shrug:

[Roi Woodt]

Other-in-law,

I agree with you, I have learned from previous encounters to do that ;-)

To hold the cold and darkness at bay, the humans and children with help from the Giants build a giant Wall of ice (ice, the personification of cold). At the Other side of the world, I think, a giant shadow is created to hold of the heat, fire and the light (and whatever else that lives there). Where the Wall needs watchers, the Shadow needs binders. As long as the shadow is around and kept in it’s place by shadowbinders, no light(elementals) can pass the barrier, in the same way as the Others cannot pass the Wall.

That shadow, like a shadowbaby, is some sort of magical entity that absorbs all light. However, if there is no light, there is nothing to absorb and I think that it would cease to exist then. I think the reason that it can exist, is because of the light, take that away and the thing fades away. Sort of like what happens to a snowman if you take the cold away.

[Stratonice]

A shadow = darkness, darkness does not neccesarily = shadow. As you say, it should have visible boundaries, there are non in a completely dark room.

That's more or less what I was trying to say.

The shadow beneath the table is more bright because there is more space between the blocking object and the floor (on which the shadow can be seen). Therefor scattered light, reflected from the walls and other objects in the room can reach the floor as well, not blocked by the table and taking away some darkness of the shadow.

Which is exactly my point. The shadow under the table is brighter because the table is not as effective at blocking to light as the couch is.

Those magical shadows are something else, palpable darkness entering into the world and taking their own shapes, not a mundane optical phenomenon. I imagine "the Shadow" as operating according to it's own rules that way....possibly a huge roiling mass of darkness sprawled across the sky, even in the middle of the brightest days.

That's more or less the way I see it too. I really hope we get to learn more about it (where it came from? when? why? and how it works).

[Roi Woodt]

Which is exactly my point. The shadow under the table is brighter because the table is not as effective at blocking to light as the couch is.

I am not sure were out initial discussion was about, but both the couch as the table blocks the light completely. Both objects are not transparent. Light is absorbed by the table, or reflected, nothing goes trough the couch/table. For example, lift your couch upward, the shadow of the couch will become brighter.

But since you agree more or less with Other-in-law as well, we do agree as well, about the Ashai shadow that is. Hopefully somewhere in the future that shadow will be enlightened.

[Stratonice]

I am not sure were out initial discussion was about, but both the couch as the table blocks the light completely. Both objects are not transparent. Light is absorbed by the table, or reflected, nothing goes trough the couch/table. For example, lift your couch upward, the shadow of the couch will become brighter.

My main objection was to the view that shadows belong to the light or that light is the main ingredient in creating a shadow since a shadow is essentially darkness, though it's darkness with visible boundries. So the light limits the darkness until it has visible boundries but without the object blocking the light all you have is a well lit space. This is also one of the things that makes me doubt Mel's motives.

By effective at blocking the light I was refering to exactly what you described in your previous post. The table is less effective than the couch, not becuase the table is transparant and the couch is not but because more light reach the space beneath the table than the space beneath the couch.

But since you agree more or less with Other-in-law as well, we do agree as well, about the Ashai shadow that is. Hopefully somewhere in the future that shadow will be enlightened.

So maybe we should drop this discussion about the nature of (natural) shadows since the interesting shadows are Mel's magical shadows and the Shadow near Asshai and it does seem we agree that they are somthing completely different.

[Cryler]

Maybe there is but we just don't know the connection. What if the Shadow by Asshai is a cloud of ash held together by the remnants of some failed sorcerery that drifted east after the Doom? Do we have any indication of how long the Shadow has been around?

I like that idea. The Targaryens used the lave flows under Dragonstone as breeding grounds atleast the dragons themselves did so it's probably safe to say they used the volcanoes in valyria the same way. So with your idea that the doom created the shadow maybe the failed sorcery isn't failed sorcery. Maybe what was left over from the destruction of the dragon's birthing place became their resting place. That could posably explain that line about Dragons beneath the Shadow. I don't remember exactly what it said but I think it was from Bran's prophetic dreams in AGoT.

And I'm going to stop there because I'm drunk and about to start rambling if I'm not allready.

[Magnar of Haeg]

It seems obvious to me that a shadow is dimnished darkness as it gets smaller and more vague the more light there is until it disappears completely. If light is what feeds a shadow, what a shadow lives on, shouldn't the oposite be true? That the shadow became bigger and stronger the more light there is?

Shadowbinder shadows are produced by the light of life. It's a person's heartfire that casts them. As Mel says to Davos, they drain the lifeforce of their source when they're manifest, so a person can only cast so many in a period of time. What exactly the fuel is is hard to say, but I would say that a person with more heartfire would cast a more effective magical shadow, and that when that fuel has been drained away and you try to make another it's a much weaker one.

How that might relate to The Shadow is ripe for speculation. Maybe it's one or more of those beings. Maybe it's an immense living shadow brought forth by the kind of effort that went into raising the Wall or shattering the arm of Dorne. Maybe Asshai is a place of ritual human sacrifice to keep The Shadow in place and alive, their guardian. Maybe it's the shadow of a dragon.

[VersusAllOdds]

in my imagination asshai is a mega-mysterios and a wicked city that doesn't remind of any civilization we have/had on earth. i reckon it's as wicked as zangarmarsh is in outland (World of Warcraft). god knows how they cope with the shadow, and is shadow evil. but if it is 'evil' i think that the shadowbinders and the asshaians don't just fight it, maybe they sort of cooperate with it like craster did with the others...

there might be a physical connection between the shadow and the heart of the winter just because that world is a planet like earth. every reader must have noticed how dedicated GRRM to present his world a realistic place. however, every time i think that martin's world is a planet the fact that summers/winters last for different periods of time always stops me. the existance of multiple suns within martin's solar system would explain that, but there's only one sun there right? and the fact that 'the longest winters come after the longest summers' tells me that there is a solar system after all... we can speculate for years whats the configuration of martin's world and it's solar system, maybe the world doesn't have the eliptic path around the sun, maybe it's a random curvy line. if only there was a maester to ask

and btw, isn't 'night watch' named after the perpetual night time during the winter? just like the northern parts of the earth are dark almost 24h a day during the winter. shadow might be moving, and that might be the reason for the permanent nightfall of the far north, as i said there may be many speculations on this...

edit

i just remembered:

the changing of the seasons on earth happens due to its iclination while it travels the sun, not due to earth's distance from it, silly me... so i guess that the planet that westeros is on has different and more intense set of inclinations and that they don't depend on the time of the year. maybe the angle of inclination of martin's world changes within a much longer period than one of a year...

everyone who understood me, raise a hand!

[BloodoftheDragon]

Coming into this thread way too late to keep track of all the involuted discussions of light and shadows, but really, what is "darkness" or "shadow" but an absence of light? There is no such thing as Darkness, Darkness is nothing. That's the whole point, Darkness is nothing, emptiness, void. That is why the Light would always "win", because the Light fills up that emptiness.

Just my two cents.

[Kevin_Lannister]

Does anyone know the book and page number were the shadow and the shadowbinders were discusessed> i would love to reread it.

[Denver]

Does anyone know the book and page number were the shadow and the shadowbinders were discusessed> i would love to reread it.

There aren't any discussions of them really, just mentions of them.

I believe Dany's third chapter in AGoT has first mention of them though. It mentions how Asshai is a marvelous place, it still has warlocks and mages and aeromances; and then it mentions the shadowbinders by the shadow, and it mentions blood magic as well.

From our first introduction to Asshai, we are greeted with a place that just might be full of magic.

One of the main reasons I think Asshai is going to get in on the action. (I even thought that before Quaithe's prophecy. Booyah.)

[Jakob Lightbringer]

Just to add my own two cents to the discussions on the nature of "darkness" and "light" and shadow.

I think that light can be just as negative as darkness. A great source of bright light can be just as blinding as darkness. I think that Mel is "blinded by the light", such that she can no longer tell the difference between darkness and light. I think that she is just as bound by the darkness of the shadows that rule her as she pretends to use light to bind and rule the shadows.

I think it is quite likely that both the Light of R'hllor and the Darkness of the Great Other are just two extremes of the same force which is not particularly benevolent toward humanity.